Loss

WCW was a money pit for years too, but they also had periods of putting out plenty of good stuff, and did show at times that they could start a storyline, build it to a climax and then end it. I'm not sure that in five years, TNA has successfully executed a storyline from start to finish.

XPW versus TNA is definitely intriguing as far as which was worse. I'm not sure how I feel about that, as I don't think I ever saw more than 5 seconds of XPW. But they did have Juventud Guerrera, who is either very awesome or the most entertaining trainwreck ever at all times. I'm curious which Juvi showed up in XPW. I guess the main point from this thread was that it's really hard to come up with promotions (or eras of promotions) that are inarguably worse. As far as the worst years of promotions not on their last legs, I think WWF's worst years are 1995, 1999 and 2002. 1999 was a successful year that showed that Austin and Rock were hot enough to draw in any environment - no matter how horrible it was. 1995 was a low period financially, but there were plenty of good matches. 2002 had way too many missed opportunities, buried a lot of guys with potential and stayed in panic mode for no reason all year long, but also had plenty of good matches and good shows. WCW was pretty consistently inconsistent. The wrestling was always really good, and they probably had a better roster than the WWF (star power and talent) for most of their entire existence until the Rads departed in 2000. It's hard to pick a worst year outside of 2000, because WCW produced tons of good stuff despite shooting themselves in the foot all the time. 1999 was probably the worst, just because I don't think I've ever seen as many heat-sinking main eventers in a major league company at one time feuding with each other.

Serious question. I was trying to think of a promotion that has ever been worse and was struggling. Relatively major league promotions (meaning some type of TV or at least plenty of available footage) would be the criteria for competition. I'd take WCW 2000, which was a horrible year of wrestling for the most part, over any 12-month period of TNA. This is totally non-trolling. I'm just trying to think of a wrestling company -- ever -- that was definitely worse than TNA has been for their entire existence.

Sure. That's no problem.

Super Astro looks great in the lucha environment, but it was actually seeing him in Hamada's UWF that really put him over the top for me. He had great chemistry with Negro Casas. Hopefully, there's a singles match out there between the two that will eventually be uncovered, if it hasn't already been. It was odd to see Casas doing his tribute to Nobuhiko Takada and really looking awesome working a totally different style. No mullet, and lots of great UWF-style kicks and matwork.

Benoit does deserve credit for bringing out the best in almost everyone around him and ultimately improving the style, though. He didn't change it, but he did improve it, which is obvious if you compare the quality of 1999 main events to the quality of 2000-2001 main events. Austin, Rock and HHH all seemed more motivated than usual to put on a good match when working opposite Benoit, and that enthusiasm, or whatever you want to call it, carried over to other matches on the show. I seem to recall a sudden jump in the amount of heat the bell-to-bell action was getting around the time Benoit, Jericho, et al jumped to the WWF. Even in '99, when the company was red hot, the crowd was dead outside of the entrances and the post-match crap. I wouldn't credit that entirely to Benoit, but I do think he played a part in it. Funny that HHH tried burying Benoit almost immediately when he came into the company by trying to label him as a guy who was all hype and was capable of having good matches, but only if he was being carried. That stopped very quickly, within Benoit's first week in the company in fact. HHH's Smackdown match with Benoit (and also Rikishi around this time) are really two of his best matches from his peak year that most people have forgotten about. Regarding HHH/Benoit, I really hated that match. HHH outwrestles Benoit, who is supposed to be the better wrestler, by taking him to the mat and working on his knee, which Benoit completely no-sells, and then can only get offense by brawling. The Austin match on RAW (11/20 I think) sort of followed the same pattern, but Austin sold more for Benoit and was also more capable of mixing things up. The match was okay after that, but that really set a bad tone for the rest of the match. I tend to think No Mercy is the annual PPV where Benoit gets to have an okay match that gets MOTY hype it doesn't deserve.

How influential was Super Astro? I've always been intrigued by him being the cutoff between minis and heavies. Also, are there any minis that might have something close to a strong case for a HOF, even Mexico only?

I know. It's a large part of the reason he's always been more over as a babyface.

I'm just not really interested in American tag matches where the heels don't cheat or attempt to cheat at some point in the match. That's typically my big problem with most post-2000 WWF tags is that being a heel means slapping on a chinlock. If cheating isn't going to happen, at least telling the crowd to shut up or bending the rules -- something to establish the heels as being jerks the audience shouldn't be cheering for -- would be nice. It's weird to say Chris Benoit is your least favorite part of a match, but he was for me in this one. Maybe the doubleteaming wouldn't seem so hokey if Edge and Rey had actually used any of those moves in the tournament prior to this match.

I don't think the opening match is much more than solid, traditional tag fare either. I just think it's better than the other match that night. Benoit not doing anything particularly heelish and not having good chemistry with Edge at all really hurt the heat and dragged the match down for me. The doubleteam moves from Edge and Rey also seemed pretty hokey. It's not that I love the opener as much as it is that I don't see the appeal in the other match at all. I've watched it two or three times thinking it was me, and it still just doesn't do anything for me.

I've often wondered if it would benefit Vince to do commentary during live broadcasts again, because he's then forced to explain/justify everything happening.

I think the Bookerdust v Jerichristian match earlier in the night accomplished just as much in a third the time. The match also had more heat (there were no chants for anyone by name in the other tag match) and Jericho/Booker having their confrontation was teased and delivered better than any pairing in the other tag match. They also had to deal with the ropes collapsing and still salvaged a good finish. I'm definitely in the minority with this opinion, but I think the RAW tag division with these two teams having several TV and PPV matches for the tag titles was better around this time than the Heyman-booked Smackdown tag division. What's ultimately a shame is that the split had already happened at this point, because having all the big teams of the time (Jericho/Christian, Booker/Goldust, RVD/Kane, Benoit/Angle, Edge/Rey, Eddy/Chavo) on one show would have made the tag team titles seem pretty important and the potential number of good matches would have increased. The Smackdown tag booking took six months worth of matches and blew through them in six weeks, unfortunately.

Possibly. I think WCW catching on and pushing huge matches on TV every week was what made it hard for the WWF to plan long-term, because WCW was giving away big matches at no charge and they had to eventually do the same to be competitive. The problem is that they could have reverted back to the slower-paced, long-term booking after WCW went down, but they still pace their television like Monday Nitro is on TNT.

The main difference was that Benoit didn't really have a clear finishing move, and instead had a ton of signature spots where any of them could really get the win. As a result, there was a lot more suspense in his matches because you could buy the finish coming at any time. Because of some pretty haphazard booking, there is a period from September-December 1996 that really stands out for me for Benoit, because he's basically alternating from face to heel and back again within a week, and all of his matches are different from each other. Fun stuff.

I really think the only way to book successfully in the US *is* to throw things at the wall. I can't recall a successful booking run that hasn't been created from this mindset. No booker is going to have a 100% success rate because it's impossible to read your audience accurately all of the time. What separates good bookers from bad bookers, in my view, is understanding their audience, and running with things that are clearly working and dropping things that clearly aren't.

The battle royal was actually at Judgment Day 2003. The undercard for Bad Blood did have two fairly well-built matches in Shawn Michaels/Ric Flair and Bill Goldberg/Chris Jericho. I do think adding Foley is what sold the show, but those matches had better storyline than the main event.

2007 will probably not compare to the glory days of the Attitude era in terms of popularity, and I think there will be some people who will write off any success they have this year unless they're drawing as much money as they were with Austin and Rock, which isn't really fair or realistic. Truth is, there are a lot of factors that I think have led to this. Staying patient with Cena and not putting him in the midcard because half the crowd was booing him paid off in the long run and I think we're seeing the effects of that now. HHH getting sidelined has led to HBK getting a much-needed shot in the arm. The Undertaker/Batista and Cena/Umaga feuds have been the most simple and basic main event booking they've done in quite some time. And this will sound silly, but don't count Jeff Hardy out either. He's drawing television ratings right now on Raw and is very over. He seems to have his head on straight since returning, which is good, because fans have always taken to him and most likely always will. Add in the buzz with things like Kevin Federline (Donald Trump has really been a failure, so I'm not including it) and I think things have come together nicely. Most of the problems they've had for years still exist, and I don't think they're going to ride this wave very long, but the timing has largely been good and lots of things have clicked at the same time. They seem to be doing more things that are working to some degree near the top of the card than they have in some time.

Thought there was some fun stuff here. I'm actually pleasantly surprised to read a Hogan interview that seems pretty down to earth with no huge lies.

What Teke is referring to is what Dave Meltzer mentioned in the HHH bio when he was inducted in the WON HOF.

The match from Pro I'm referring to is the one that's on the comp. The one you praised.

I'm going to have to come back to this later. I can't seem to put my thoughts together at all. The two matches I do want to specifically mention are the War Games match from Wrestle War '91 and Windham/Rhodes v Austin/Zbyszko from SuperBrawl II. Wrestle War '91 is a great match that I think I had downplayed for a long time because I liked Wrestle War '92 better. The match is what it is almost entirely because of the Windham/Pillman feud. Pillman specifically gives maybe the best War Games performance ever, and one of the best babyface performances probably ever. Breaking from the pack and fighting the match with a shoulder injury, going toe-to-toe trapped in a cage with Ric Flair and Barry Windham doubleteaming him -- it was really awesome to see Pillman working with a storyline where he got to show some hate and intensity. He was too often pushed as a token high-flying midcarder, and this I think is really the only feud from his physical prime where he got to actually work a storyline, and he came through in a big way. Probably the US MOTY for 1991 by a pretty healthy margin. The Pillman/Windham matches from TV and PPV around this time were recently discussed in the Match Discussion folder, and they're all really strong. There's a definite progression in the feud, with Windham basically squashing Pillman on offense, but Pillman getting the match over as a non-squash through his selling and facial expressions. As mentioned, the first match on Will's set between them (Main Event, 03/23/91) is just a really solid feud starter. The Pro match, aired on 4/6, is tremendous and has a great performance by both. Windham is really good at treating Pillman like someone clearly not on his level, but giving him enough openings to keep it interesting and keep Pillman looking strong. Really great match that I hope everyone will check out, and the post-match angle with Pillman repeatedly coming back for more. The SuperBrawl taped fist match has been discussed plenty, but it's worth mentioning again that it's a very good match, especially when you consider how much they accomplished and how strongly they put over the feud in such a short amount of time when put right in the middle of the card on the PPV. Another match everyone should see, but honestly, it doesn't touch the match from Pro. That's the shining moment of this feud for both guys. Windham/Rhodes v Austin/Zbyszko from SuperBrawl II ... where do I begin? I've always loved this match, but watched it again and I'm convinced it's the best US tag of all time. It's comparable to the All Japan style of the time -- with lots of big lariats, awesome power moves, a fast pace, and a really logical progression where the transitions and swings in momentum are so big and important. You take that style and plug it into a typical US face in peril tag formula with strong heels, strong babyfaces and a big grudge match feel and it works really well. No one else has really come close to hitting this dynamic so well, where nothing is sacrificed. Everything you can want is here -- a great storyline, four great performances (the first really shining moment for Steve Austin from my point of view), awesome action, a heated crowd, and a really brilliantly laid out match. The best WCW match of the 90s -- most likely. The best US tag ever -- most likely. I doubt if I'll see anything else I like better, and the Southern tag style is probably my favorite style with tons of great matches to choose from. I saw plenty of other great matches from him, which helped the case, but the above matches are really what prompted me to start this topic. I don't feel like I'm really covering the matches to the degree I want to, as calling a tag the best US tag ever really deserves some high-quality elaboration from me, but hopefully this is better than saying nothing and will prompt some discussion. Also, check my blog later tonight, as I'll post all the Windham matches I've watched this week and where I think they fall in line with everything else from that particular year. Tomorrow is Day 1 of World of Sport week!!