Loss

This remind anyone else of the Rantsylverse booking back in 2001? REBEKAH~!

Thanks, Shoe. I definitely enjoy talking about matches from that time period as well. You are right that the pre-'94 doesn't get discussed as much. Outside of Flair/Steamboat, WWF pay-per-views and maybe a War Games, you don't hear much unless you go to specific places.

I think this is Russo's Utopian vision of a peaceful resolution of conflict under Christ, where grudges are settled by floatovers and hammerlocks instead of fists and hate. If only we all had Ironman matches with each other to settle personal issues. I think that's God's will.

>>1976 >>#1 - Billy Robinson v Giant Baba (AJPW, 07/24) ***** Best match of the 70s by a large, large margin. Incredibly modern, in that it could take place today and fans wouldn't be disappointed by the action at all. I think that even the best 70s AJPW stuff is typically going to require patience from the viewer, but this match was such an enjoyable breeze. Anyone who has enjoyed any matches from AJPW in the 90s owes it to themselves to see where many of the ideas appear to have originated. I don't think I've seen any other 70s matches built around so many false finishes, but the coolest thing about this is that this isn't a superficial match where the action is there because the thought is lacking. Robinson starts off attempting to be a nice guy, but as the match progresses, he gets more aggressive and more focused and gets the best shit-eating grin you'll ever see on his face after low dropkicking Baba later on. Speaking of the low dropkick, that's been a really common transitional move in the US since about 1995 when Eddy Guerrero, Dean Malenko and Chris Benoit entered WCW. It's one that was impressive at first, but it's been overused and no longer grabs my attention like it used to. This match made me appreciate the move again, if only because in the context of 1976, this wasn't commonplace and seeing Robinson pull it out was very cool. So much desperation in the matwork communicated through the pacing and facial expressions, so much build, and man, was Robinson ever laying in his shots. The corner forearm later in the match after the Irish whip was a thing of beauty. Brawling on the floor reminded me a lot of Akira Taue matches and the tease of the nodowa, and the match layout is eerily similar to Misawa/Kawada on 6/3/94. I'll be watching this quite a few more times. >>#2 - Jumbo Tsuruta v Terry Funk (AJPW, 06/11) ***** Or is this the best match of the 70s? Depending on which day you catch me on, you're going to get a different answer from me. To me, this is the quintessential match that represents everything the NWA stood for -- the world-traveled champ facing the local young star on the rise, holding on to his belt in the end, with the younger guy coming out looking really strong. Really the oldest match of its style that I've seen worked like that. There have been other NWA title matches that have gone longer where the challenger pushes the champ to the limit, but I think what separates this is that it went the perfect amount of time. Any longer would have been too long, and any shorter would have been too short. Seamless wrestling, with the best "flow" of maybe any match I've ever seen. Lots of awesome chain wrestling and counters. Classic. >>#3 - Jumbo Tsuruta v Jack Brisco (AJPW, 08/28) ****1/4 Similar to Funk/Jumbo as far as the dynamic in some ways, but not nearly at the same level as Funk/Jumbo. My favorite Jack Brisco match at this point, although there are still some key matches I need to see. >>#4 - Antonio Inoki v Ivan Koloff (NJPW, 12/02) ***1/2 Local superstar against foreign menace done really well. Seeing Ivan Koloff young and spry is interesting. Good match that's lacking in some ways because there's nothing really spectacular to put it over the top.

I wouldn't argue the meaning of the big stuff in this match at all. Normally, I like it when matches in eras where every match goes long run a little shorter because it stands out more for being different. See matches like Styles/Rave from '05 ROH because every other big match went at least 30 minutes. Baba/Brisco is a match that I really wish would have gone 60 minutes, though. The 23 or 24 minutes that did happen were pretty great, but I would have enjoyed the match even more going twice that long. I haven't seen the match they had a few days later. Did it go any longer?

To tell you the truth, Baba was so overwhelmed by Destroyer in this match for me that I couldn't really tell you much about Baba's performance except that I thought it was pretty good. Destroyer had the performance of a lifetime of course. The striking was definitely never really Baba's strong suit. I'm glad you agree this is a great match. Because it didn't show up on AJ Classics, I think there are a lot of people that haven't seen it that would probably enjoy it. It gets pimped enough, but it's a little harder to track down, or at least it was until Frank's digests.

Unless he learns to work and gets good, I doubt he'll have a sustained run on top. He'll probably end up more in the Test/Billy Gunn mode where he gets chance after chance after chance for years and years and never really delivers. Besides, WWE has no stars on the rise anymore. There's no one that everyone can agree and say "Hey, why aren't they pushing this guy?" like there was even two or three years ago. When Edge and Randy Orton are the most promising young guys the company has, something is wrong.

>>1975 >>#1 - Harley Race v Giant Baba (AJPW, 12/09) ****3/4 One of the greatest matches of all time. I don't really know what to say about it beyond that. I think Race is better at putting over Baba as a serious threat than anyone ever was. Some may have had slightly better matches with him, but the end result of Baba looking like a million bucks is something where no one can really touch Race. >>#2 - The Destroyer v Hiro Matsuda (AJPW, 12/15) ****1/4 Destroyer does most of the work, Matsuda does a little, and they have a great match that's basically a one man show. Beautiful, defined build that is carried almost completely by Beyer. A must on a Destroyer comp, if one is ever done. >>#3 - Stan Hansen v The Destroyer (AJPW, 10/30) **** Here we go again. The most basic, great match that probably ever happened. Wrestlers with six months of training could do this, but won't. >>#4 - Abdullah the Butcher v Dory Funk Jr (AJPW, 12/06) ***1/2 I remember nothing about this except that it was a pretty good brawl, or at least it seemed that way at the time. Need to watch again. >>#5 - Jumbo Tsuruta v Horst Hoffman (AJPW, 12/06) ***1/2 Another match I don't remember much about. December of '75 seemed to have a lot of matches that were fundamentally pretty good that bored me to tears (except Baba/Race). >>#6 - Jerry Lawler v Jack Brisco (CWA, 09/16 - Memphis, TN) ***1/2 Stands out like a sore thumb because it's basically an 80s-style US heavyweight match without the bumping, which is usually a strong suit for Lawler. Lots of cheating and shortcuts. Fun match. >>#7 - Ric Flair v Wahoo McDaniel (Mid Atlantic, July) ***1/4 I always thought Flair and Wahoo worked well together, even early on. Mostly punching and kicking and little else, but fun to watch with lots of heat and energy. >>#8 - Harley Race v Dusty Rhodes (AJPW, 12/06) *** Another good match that I was expecting more out of because I wanted more of a face/heel line in the sand. Still solid stuff.

>>1974 >>#1 - Jack Brisco v Giant Baba (AJPW, 12/02) **** I liked this a lot, mainly for the various ways they found to stretch each other on the mat, and this also had a nice, big match feel, which it should, considering it's a title change. I don't think it's quite on the level that I'd say a MOTY candidate should be, but it's definitely on the next tier down. I still have tons and tons of '74 to watch.

>>1969 >>#1 - The Destroyer v Giant Baba (JWA, 03/05) ***** At one time I considered this the greatest match I had ever seen. It's still near the top for me, and it may still yet be the best match I've ever seen. Baba is more than capable here, but this match is what it is because of Destroyer and because he's the blueprint in this match for most of my favorite heels of the subsequent 30 years. Hiding the foreign object, loudly arguing with the ref, celebrating victories that don't matter much ... all heel staples that Beyer excels at. My only complaint against Dick Beyer, if you want to call it that, is that in most of the matches I've seen of his, he seems to be having so much fun wrestling that he's devoid of a real mean streak or any aggression. I need recommendations where Destroyer is angry. Still need to watch Inoki/Dory also.

I could probably do one or two lines on every match right now. I'll start on that and make a post for each year.

I agree that there is something cool about watching a match on handheld, but I also understand the annoyance with bad camera angles, blur, etc. Will, what is your philosophy on separating footage? I ask because I know you put WWE TV in its own category when you make MOTYC comps.

John's right though, I do need to comment more these days than I have been. There's a whole message board's worth of stuff to discuss in just the snowflakes thrown around in this thread.

More: I'd love to do Joshi just as much as I would anything else. It will take a while, but I think it would be worth it in the end.

Understood, but if a match that took place on a house show was better than a match that aired on TV, should it be put in a different place separate from everything else just because it wasn't pro-shot? Handhelds are a bitch to watch at times, no doubt, but I do think they have value, but I think their main value is more in early 1990s WWF than anything in the 80s. Seeing Bret Hart alternate between title defenses on TV against the 1-2-3 Kid, followed by him doing an Ironman match against Owen Hart 8 days later, is interesting, because it's a way to follow the schedule of the champ as much as possible. Jumbo's house show reputation from Meltzer is a pretty strong case for some handheld footage being allowed, agreed. Kobashi/Hansen from 4/16/93 I think looks pretty good alongside the rest of All Japan for the year. The Carny every year could be covered extensively by mixing handhelds with available TV and commercial release. I know Lynch has a Misawa/Kawada match from 4/11/94 available in full on handheld. I believe that match was heavily edited on the '94 commercial release, was it not? This also applies to some of the Super Juniors tournaments New Japan would often do, and there are boatloads of matches that didn't make TV available from those. Maybe so. I do think we're years away from seeing it done. Agreed. Hopefully, the rest of the AJ and NJ season sets Dan has (along with the rest of his World Pro collection) will be released in the near future. True. I'm thinking more of including singles matches like Rey/Juvi and Rey/Psicosis that are undeniably "juniors" matches. Those matches shouldn't be left off of a juniors set or a lucha libre set. Would you include the NJ/WAR feud of 1993 on a New Japan set? EDIT: Nevermind, you addressed this. Yes there is, because matches like Fuchi/Malenko wouldn't seem out of place next to what the New Japan juniors were doing in '91. It does in some ways, but a juniors set for 1996, as an example, would probably need to have the Rey/Ultimo and Malenko/Ultimo matches from WCW late in the year. I think the issue there is to just be choosy. There's no reason to include the five-minute Nitro specials, unless the match runs longer than usual. It doesn't fit in with the rest of the set at all. But Rey/Ultimo and Dean/Ultimo definitely do. I think it would be the job of the person putting it together to (hopefully) understand the difference. Maybe, but you're making sense. That's probably the best way to do Other Japan. And yes, Garbage wrestling would be its own animal. Agreed.

There are two advantages to this: (1) It's much easier to get a handle on how good Crockett mainstays like Steamboat were during this time period by pulling All Japan footage than it is relying solely on Mid Atlantic footage, only because finding 15 minute+ matches available during this time period that aren't from All Japan is going to be difficult, if not impossible. I think someone like a Jumbo Tsuruta is a pretty good barometer and it so happens he has long matches available from the early 80s against plenty of guys who worked Mid Atlantic. (2) While I can see the point on the GA/FL footage being left off, my thinking is that you either go all the way or you don't show any of it. Mid South wasn't an NWA territory, but any Ric Flair matches were included because he was the NWA World Champion at the time. That made sense. Florida and George were NWA territories and I'd say they should be included, if only because Florida was absorbed by Crockett in '87, and Georgia was absorbed by Crockett in '85, and all of that was purchased as Jim Crockett Promotions by Turner in '88. Watts fits into that as well, but since Mid South wasn't actually an NWA territory when it was in business, I can see leaving it off. I would maybe agree with separating Georgia and Florida from Crockett if there also weren't so many overlaps in wrestlers used (Flair, Dusty, Windham, Piper, Garvin, etc). It's over the top, but the problem with supplemental discs is that the supplemental matches suffer for it, because they're not treated in the same way as the other matches on the set. I'd rather see an upgrade of the set instead of supplemental discs, mainly because I think a missing match from 1985 should be looked at alongside other matches from 1985 instead of as a "bonus" match, which is how people look at those. I agree with keeping World Class separate, largely because they didn't tour with feuds like Von Erichs/Freebirds outside of World Class, and also because they seceded from the NWA as they were dying down. I loved that Flair's matches from everywhere were included, because I think it put over the schedule and flexibility the NWA World Champion had to have. My issue was that if it was going to be done for Flair, it needed to be done for the other champions prior to Flair's era that did the same model. Baba/Brisco from 12/02/74 on its own is a fine match to include, but there's plenty more, that's readily available at that, where that came from.

I try to say something about some of the matches. I should probably comment on more of them, but honestly my goal has been to watch as much stuff as possible and then talk about everything all at the same time. Maybe there's a balance ...

Added: Espectrito v Mascarita Sagrada (AAA 03/12/94) ****3/4 Waiting on dates: El Hijo del Santo, Octagon & Muneco v Blue Panther, Fuerza Guerrera & Psicosis (AAA ??/??/94) ***3/4 Minis Match From AAA Vol 13 featuring Octagoncito (AAA ??/??/94) ***1/2 Blue Panther, Psicosis & Fuerza Guerrera v El Mariachi, El Mexicano & El Charro (AAA ??/??/94) ****

It's interesting that you mention this, because I've been working on organizing all the footage I have for months and trying to create DVD yearbooks of the best footage of a given promotion for every year. My plan is to divide everything in the following ways: WWF -- This would also include things like Backlund and Hogan in NJPW. I would also like to see the Coliseum Video matches, handhelds, etc, put in context with the TV and PPV by putting the key stuff in chronological order. WCW -- Punk's set is great, and I know the whole point is not to include every single thing one can find, but once Punk crosses over into WCW, there are a lot of missing matches that really should be included. The first half of 1992 specifically was pretty loaded on TV. Arn/Dustin from the 1/4/92 Saturday Night show is a match that I think compares favorably to Sting/Vader at Bash '92. It's not on the set. There are various 6-mans and 8-mans from the Dangerous Alliance era that are really strong that seem to be missing. I think Punk did a terrific job on the NWA side of things (although there are other important things I think should be included there as well, such as more 70s AJPW, and more Florida and Georgia footage in the 80s), but I'm not sure that the WCW set comes close to meeting its potential. NWA -- Similar to Punk's set, but with more focus on pre-1980 NWA title defenses, and more attention given to the territories like Florida and Georgia. I think Punk's set is great, but I also think he overly focused on Flair in some ways, and St. Louis is really not even touched at all. There are clips of title defenses out there like the Funk/Brisco match you watched recently and enjoyed, Race/DiBiase, Thesz matches, etc, that aren't really featured on the set at all. ECW -- TV, PPV, commercial releases and fancams, with the key stuff put in chronological order. I can *feel* your enthusiasm as I type this. Mid South -- Similar to ECW AWA -- Similar to ECW and Mid South Tennessee -- Doesn't fit with the NWA since there's so much stuff that extends after the NWA days. This is where 70s-80s Memphis, USWA, SMW, Gulas and Continental would go (even though Continental ran Alabama). I've debated whether or not to move Florida and Georgia here and rename this "Southeastern". Texas -- World Class, Southwest and whatever other footage one can find US Indies -- Starting in the 90s when the territories died and moving forward from there AJPW -- I'm questioning the need for doing this for the years where Dan has released complete TV seasons, but it could be nice to put the available handheld footage and commercial upgrades in chronological order with the available TV that should be watched. It's a big project. NJPW -- As you mentioned on CM a while back, this will be the hardest set to do because making sense of what's available for New Japan and wading through it is virtually impossible. I'm still hopeful I can make headway on this at some point. Juniors -- Focusing on juniors matches worth seeing not just in Japan, but in Mexico, the US, Canada and Europe. Who influenced who? I think a Dynamite Kid/Marc Rocco match from World of Sport has a place alongside a Tiger Mask/Black Tiger match from New Japan, and Rey/Psicosis or Rey/Juvi next to Liger/Otani or Otani/Samurai seems right as well. Michinoku Pro would be included here. Then there's the Nitro era, and WCW's half-hearted attempts at creating a division prior to the Nitro era. I feel no need to include the Denny Brown/Nelson Royal stuff alongside this, though. Garbage -- FMW, IWA, W*ING, Big Japan, etc Joshi -- I agree that the best way to make sense of what DG has released is to go through everything and put the must-see stuff in chronological order and go from there. I also see no reason to separate the promotions, especially considering that so much of the talent has worked in so many of the promotions, and that the early 90s interpromotional matches should all be in one place. So this would be AJW, JWP, ARSION, J'd, GAEA, LLPW, etc Other Japan -- IWE, SWS, WAR, Zero One, etc Lucha Libre -- Again, because so much of the talent has moved around so much, I see no reason to separate this by promotion. Shoot Style -- I hate that name for it, but I'm not sure what to call it. This is the one that perplexes me the most, because I have trouble distinguishing works and shoots, especially when there's a mixture on the same card. I do think including the shoot stuff next to the worked stuff seems a little silly, because the shooters aren't aiming to entertain. So this would be UWF-1 & UWF-2, UWF-I, RINGS, BattlARTS, etc. BattlARTS seems slightly out of place, but this is the closest to a good category for it. Europe -- Self explanatory Obviously, this is going to take years. Going through my collection of footage right now, my goal is to figure out which years and companies I have the most wrestling from, and knock out the easiest-to-do ones first. But it's definitely an overwhelming project, although I agree it's something someone should do.

This is really, really awesome. I'm glad you posted this. I'll chime in wherever I can when I get home. First, I have to ask why *anyone* would think Lioness is better than Chigusa? That's pretty ridiculous. I like Lioness Asuka plenty, but Chigusa Nagayo was amazing, and was absolutely on the same level as Masami, Yokota and the others that get pimped as being top of the line at her peak. Chig was over enough that she could have slowed down a lot and not worked nearly as hard as she did and still stayed over and done plenty to get by. The fact that she didn't says a lot for her. I always considered her a super-exaggerated Steve Austin with more talent, as far as her work ethic goes. What I mean is that both worked far harder than they had to considering how much heat they had. I know this is more about the DG set than the AJW Classics, but there's a Yamazaki/Matsumoto match on AJW Classics (sometime in '86) that's pretty awesome that I'd recommend anyone check out who wants to see a really good singles match involving either of the JBAs. And of course, anyone who hasn't seen Devil Masami against Chigusa Nagayo from 8/22/85 should immediately go watch it, considering that it has a strong case as being the best match of the 80s. That 12-woman tag from late '87 that went an hour and had ridiculous heat, is it on this set? I saw a pretty bad quality version of it on the old Jo Mosh comps that were floating around years ago, but I'd love to see it in better VQ. I may even have it, since I have quite a few of those. A couple of matches in 1980 worth also checking out are Jackie Sato v Tommy Aoyama and Jaguar Yokota v Chino Sato.

Added: Heavy Metal, Latin Lover & Rey Misterio Jr v Fuerza Guerrera, Juventud Guerrera & Psicosis (AAA 11/29/94) **** Blue Panther v El Mariachi (AAA 10/30/94) ****1/2 Octagoncito & Mascarita Sagrada v Espectrito & Jerrito Estrada (AAA 11/06/94) ***1/4 Rey Misterio Jr, Heavy Metal & Latin Lover v Fuerza Guerrera, Madonna's Boyfriend & Psicosis (AAA 11/06/94) *** Blue Panther, Jerry Estrada & La Parka v Pegasus Kid, 2 Cold Scorpio & Tito Santana (AAA 11/06/94) ***1/4 Attempting to locate dates before adding to list: Fuerza Guerrera, Psicosis & Fobia v Heavy Metal, Puma & Rey Misterio Jr (AAA ??/??/94) **** Perro Aguayo & Dinamitas v Konan, Eddy Guerrero, Art Barr & Madonna's Boyfriend (AAA ??/??/94) ****

God, between the way the wrestlers talk, David Sahadi's video packages and Vince Russo's booking, TNA is WAY more elaborate than they ever need to be. Why can't they just speak like real people?

I don't either, but I also think if he wasn't getting a reaction, it probably wouldn't make a difference. Divorce is ugly enough, but divorce mixed in with insecurity and financial problems is even worse.

Ric Flair will wrestle until he dies, no doubt about it.

Is there a reason Samoa Joe isn't working as a top gaijin in NOAH?