Loss

#103 is GREAT!

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I'm batting some things around amongst the other mods and will talk more about it once they've put in their two cents. In the meantime, I think we can do the WCW tournament since it got the second highest number of votes and since it'll take some time to really get the ball rolling on the Best Match idea anyway.

Banning would probably be a little overboard, but I do think there should be something in place to assure that people who get the DVDs are willing to talk about them. I'm going to post more about some long-term ideas I have for the folder in another thread.

I don't buy that Shawn is a changed man at all. I think he's mellowed in his old age, but he largely just seems to be a different kind of bad now, meaning he's someone from the old guard that always gets his wins back and goes over guys he shouldn't and he's totally undercut Hogan in this feud. If it was anyone but Hogan, I'd be pissed, but as it is, it's hilarious.

Holy crap, I use the word "actually" way too much. I'm going to make a conscious effort to post without using that word at all for 30 days.

How do you like this Loss compared to their Rumble match? I prefered that to this. Although I liked the work they were doing, the lackluster crowd made me not get into the match as much as I would've liked. Haven't seen the Rumble match since it aired live, so I'm not sure how I'd compare it. I just remember thinking it was the worst of the three matches they had at the time. Vengeance match was totally carried by revenge spots from No Mercy and Jericho's wicked bumping. He also had a vicious streak while on offense that had just surfaced and was fresh after being stale for so long and getting a much-needed overhaul. Heat was strong, although Jericho going over when the crowd expected Austin/Rock totally deflated them, and I didn't like how the moment the bell rang, Austin's music started. This is actually a more fluid and fast paced match than the No Mercy match, and I like what it does to get Jericho over as an asskicker. The finish of Jericho pinning Rock after the Rock Bottom is actually a really nice exclamation point on that. Same here, actually. Right now, I'd even consider it top five, but that may drop after seeing some more Backlund-era stuff and watching the 80s DVDs from DVDVR.

If they can't get Lesnar, I'm really curious what they're building toward on Smackdown in the future. Batista/Eddy will probably have plenty of heat and I see them having really strong matches that don't get credit, but it's not a WM-caliber main event.

I'm not convinced that they aren't high on Rey, considering that he and Eddy are getting top billing on Smackdown every week over even Batista and JBL (despite their feud being for the title) and also considering that when Meltzer got a hold of the marketing profiles for the company a while back, they considered Rey one of the biggest names they had.

I don't know -- there weren't any big names that got murdered in the WWF tournament. The main problem with judging "impact" is that the only way to do it is by looking at facts, namely, attendance figures and PPV buyrates. There's far less subjectivity in that. I think if we're going to do Best Match, we need to follow DVDVR's example and send out DVDs to everyone to watch and vote on. It may also be a good idea to do it company by company. I'm willing to run that starting in January or so, provided everyone can send DVDs to me and cover their own postage. By then, I'll have a DVD burner and VHS to DVD converter, so we could collect everything and put everyone on the same page. Of course, I'd also suggest that anyone who gets DVDs and doesn't vote on all the matches get banned from the board, but that's just me.

Just did more editing to include matches I may not have watched recently, but have seen enough times to know exactly where I stand. There's more of those coming, actually. I'll respond to some things you said very soon Benjie.

Now, for the rest of what I wanted to say here ... Brock had all the raw potential in the world. He's a guy that would already be a world class worker if the territory system still existed. In fact, if WWE wasn't trying to cockblock him working Japan, he'd probably be there right now improving with every outing. I don't know that Lesnar would have ever reached Vader's level no matter how long he stuck around though, just because we're in a monopoly era and the ability to travel and learn different styles is no longer there. Vader had a style that was kind of a melting pot of things he picked up working everywhere. I think Lesnar was more likely to become a worker on the level of The Rock - probably surpassing him quite clearly - than Vader. Right. I can't think of a single guy who's booked Benoit who's actually put any thought into the direction he's taking other than, "Hey, we need a great match in this slot, so let's put Benoit against (Wrestler X)" or "Hey, we need to get this guy over and Benoit will give him a good match, so let's do it." That's a shame, because even his 2004 title run didn't really fully feature his strengths, but then again, Benoit is to blame for part of that too. I liked the match he had with Kane, but I wish he would have approached Kane differently than Shawn Michaels and Michaels differently from HHH. I also think there were a lot of obvious matches (Jericho and Edge mainly) that they didn't run while he was champ and should have. I would have also liked to have seen a Benoit/Taijiri match with Benoit as champ at some point on RAW. Eddy got those opportunities and Benoit really didn't. I can't argue with this. Thinking about it more, I do put Benoit ahead of Eddy for 1996. HOWEVER, Eddy had a fantastic year in his own right. Benoit got more opportunity in WCW than Eddy did, and one thing that's consistent about '96 is that almost all of their best matches were against each other. There are Benoit/Guerrero matches that are mostly Benoit's match (06/96, 11/96), but in the same token, they're matches he could not have had against anyone else with the same effect. I think Guerrero's matches with guys like Ric Flair (NOT at Hog Wild '96) and Psicosis are not terribly below Benoit's matches with Sullivan.

His charisma isn't a problem if it's not killing his heat. And it's not. His facial expressions and ability to get the crowd involved in his matches is just fine, but WWE has a way of focusing more on finding reasons not to push guys climbing the ladder and trying their hardest to focus on their weaknesses, which is the opposite of good booking. Shelton obviously has charisma - if he didn't, he wouldn't be over. The mic skills will come with time.

About the Benoit/Otani v Sasuke/BT matches ... In Benoit's defense, I think he was the glue that held both of those together. Guerrero was great, but Benoit was on another level in these matches. All the spots were pretty much called by him, as was obvious watching, and it was his bumping that kept the pace what it was. Eddy was filling a role, and doing a good job, but Benoit was the one directing traffic.

It's a priority. I will be getting this comp as well, and I'm watching it first thing when I do.

Great post, Dylan. I wanted to respond and add to a few things you said. NJ juniors seemed to have a lackluster year overall compared to other years in '93 from what I've seen. The best NJ juniors matches I've seen from '93 have all involved Benoit. The 06/14 Samurai match and the Liger match where he did the crazy dive to the floor are what stand out here. That said, yes, everyone else was peaking so high that year that I don't think he would be in the top five for the year. Of those you listed, I think the only one he's competitive with would be Bret, but Bret got a great matches out of Yokozuna and Doink the Clown that year, worked as a heel in the USWA and did some really awesome stuff there and also had that KOTR '93 match with Hennig that is so, so great. So yeah, for '93, I'd probably put Bret higher. In the US, Benoit had the Scorpio match at SuperBrawl III, which was a nice match, but Benoit would gain such a killer instinct within a year that it's not quite as awesome as it seemed at the time. I didn't think his tag team with Eaton was as good as it could have been either, and I'd rank them behind the Blondes and even Bagwell and Scorpio. Comparing the Scorpio matches they both had in '93 could be interesting. I'm not sure which I'd put higher, but I think they both had their best US matches that year against Scorp. I'd agree with this. I also wonder how Benoit compares to Owen in '94. I'd put him ahead of Malenko, Michaels, Scorpio and Austin for sure. Possibly Kobashi but I don't know where I stand on that. I would put Ultimo, Otani and maybe even Liger above him in his weight class though. With Malenko, I think his peaks came against Misterio and Ultimo, but he also had stinkers on a few occasions where you wouldn't expect it, specifically with Psicosis at World War 3. Michaels had his best year as a main eventer, but I think Benoit/Eddy from 6/11/96 is better than any Michaels match that year. Scorpio was carrying just about everyone in ECW, but I don't know that he ever really got to the level his talent deserved that year. Austin had the Bret match in November and a few good matches against Mero, but I think Benoit was working on a higher level at this point. In '96, Benoit was booked all over the place and made it work, but in '97, Benoit was booked all over the place with mostly worse opponents. I will give him credit for getting more out of the Outsiders tag team in a match where he teamed with Flair on Nitro than anyone else has. He was out with the injury for a good 4-6 months of the year. Also, the Booker series is strong, but the matches all run together. I've never heard anyone be able to say "This was the best of the series" and point to a specific match. Benoit may have been the best in the world in 1999, or at least the best in the US. Despite the wrestling around him declining, he still had what would have been a great year in any year. I'll respond to the other two points when I have more time.

So, in lucha, they're allowed to do doubleteams all they want? They don't have to be back on the apron by the count of five like in American wrestling, right? Or was the ref just being lax in what I watched? I was aware of the touch-the-floor rule, but I couldn't figure out what was going on because there was never really a legal man with two guys standing on the apron.

Just watched Dr Wagner Jr & Mistico v Ultimo Guerrero & Rey Bucanero from CMLL 03/12/05. Liked the match a lot and it probably deserves a place on the list I'm doing, but I'm having trouble understanding and getting used to lucha in a major way, so I don't really know where I'd put it. The way they build to technicos comebacks and work toward finishes is totally different from what I'm used to in American and Japanese wrestling, because there aren't really any hope spots in what I've seen so far and the crowd can't be heard for the damn horn. Also, what's the point in doing 2/3 falls when the first two falls end so quickly? And the horn in the crowd is annoying the Hell out of me because I'm not used to it and I want to hear pops and heel heat. I'm going to keep trying, but I'm struggling at the moment. Watched the trios match earlier on the show and it totally confused me. Do wrestlers actually *tag* in lucha or is it considered fair game for everyone to be in the ring at the same time? Or did I just watch a bad batch of lucha? Santo/Casas from 08/87 and Villano III/Atlantis from 03/00 were both matches I loved a great deal, but they were also singles matches, and I'm just getting confused watching tags and trios matches. Any help?

WCW had an agreement with Rob Van Dam, and with the reaction he was getting, they would have had to push him to the top immediately. Although, we know how badly WWE botched RVD. Imagine what WCW would have done to him.

No prob. And to think, I almost felt guilty about X-Pac-ing you.

No clue. I saw the picture around somewhere and it made me laugh.

WCW would be back on top by now if WWE had run the same inconsistent crap it's run for the past few years and they probably would have had an exodus of talent to WCW again. Most of the talk I've seen from Bischoff suggests that he really did learn from his mistakes, but it was just too late when he finally realized what was going on. JOHN FREAKIN' MUSE was also signed on to start booking. For those of you who don't know, Meltzer has been praising him for years as having a terrific booking mind who he wished worked in one of the Big Two. Bischoff apparently called Meltzer asking for suggestions for bookers, and Meltzer recommended him. They would have had an uphill battle for sure. 1999 was a really horrible year for WCW, despite there being some good wrestling. 2000 is probably the worst year I think any wrestling company has ever had, both in terms of booking and wrestling. There was little that was more uncool or frustrating to the average wrestling fan at the time than watching Nitro and Thunder, so Bischoff knew it was going to take 2+ years at that point to turn things around. Changing the name of the company, giving all the PPVs a new name, and cycling in some fresh talent on top, all of which were planned, would have helped things.

Flair doing the Flair Flop only to stand right back up is kinda weird, but the rest of it is quite good. The TBS match has a faster pace since it was wrestled as more of a sprint, but what's shown of this is still excellent.

If that's the case, why is Eddy losing all the matches? Also, I'm surprised anyone in that company would be thinking about Orton/Christian at this point, considering that Orton bombed as a face and Christian has manuevered his way out of turning face in the past. Who would be the face? And if people are lobbying for Christian on the writing team, why has he done so many jobs this year? Why did Booker beat him at the last PPV? Is this the same source that said that Lita was cheating on Matt Hardy with Gene Snitsky?