Loss

Vote for the team that you feel had the best run as a tag team from 1985 to 2005. Voting will last approximately 24 hours and the winner of each match will advance to the second round. Because the goal of the tournament is to promote discussion, please feel free to explain how you came to your decision as much as possible. Match #13 - Hardy Boyz v Twin Towers Match #14 - Harlem Heat v US Express (Mike Rotunda & Barry Windham) Match #15 - Vitamin C v Heavenly Bodies Match #16 - The Russians (Ivan/Nikita/Kruschev) v The World's Greatest Tag Team

*rolls eyes* It's unbelievable that what was probably the best WWE PPV of 2004 is largely considered the worst. I want to approach a few more things specifically, but so much of that is so laughable.

Vader definitely had a rep as an ass among some people. I think it was deserved in some cases and undeserved in others. Aside from the Orndorff incident, I don't know of him ever deliberately provoking anyone, aside from him punching Flair squarely in the mouth at Starrcade '93 and telling him to fight back. He's probably one of those guys who can "turn it on" for matches and sometimes forgets to turn it off when the matches are over. Those who actively like him usually point out that he's overly sensitive and is a harmless baby.

Yeah, Vader apparently is a big fan of romantic comedies and loves Whitney Houston. Make your own jokes.

... and she hung out with *lots* of other guys as well, if you know what I mean.

Well, they obviously know Christian's over, since he's being paired with guys higher on the card, but I think they underestimate how much, and it's really hard to build up a strong heel on RAW. He'll probably really do well on Smackdown.

Yes, but: (1) he'd have to get lots of mic time (2) he'd either have to have full control over his promos or have them scripted by someone who knew what they were doing (3) he'd have to finally start collecting some big wins

I'm a little sickened when people get happy on boards when wrestlers are getting released by the company. It's like people are happy that these guys aren't going to be able to feed their families, just because they think they're shitty wrestlers and don't want to see them on TV. Hint #1, they're not likely to fire anyone they're using regularly on TV anyway, and the quality of the final product has never improved from getting rid of a bunch of guys. Hint #2, the reason they don't do mass releases often is because they're a publicly traded company and it sends the message to stockholders that they're about to hit hard times. That could wreak financial havoc on WWE, which in turns spills over to the wrestlers, the guys that we like to see perform. Hint #3, whenever we hear about them making cuts, that should be sad news, not great news, and it's normally taken as great news. Now I'm not saying WWE has some sort of obligation to employ the universe or anything like that, but at the same time, all the roster cuts are just a reflection of the fact that business still isn't as strong as it should be, and when wrestling is popular, everyone's piece of the pie is bigger. When it's down, it's nearly impossible for anyone but the absolute best and most over to keep a job. That's only a good thing if you're incredibly short-sighted, because the more wrestlers are released and paid less, the less likely new guys are to try to get into the business. WWE hates having to make releases and I hate it when they have to do it. It just frustrates me, because I don't think people who get all excited about it are looking at the big picture at all.

Match #9 - Edge & Rey Misterio Jr v Raven & Perry Saturn I can only think of one standout match each team had, and I think the No Mercy tag is horribly overrated, but remain a big fan of the Spring Stampede match Raven and Saturn had. For that reason, I'm going with them. Raven & Perry Saturn Match #10 - Eliminators v Shawn Michaels & Diesel Eliminators were hacks and I hated most of their matches while I can point to the tag against Razor and Kid and call it one of the best WWF matches ever done. Shawn Michaels & Diesel Match #11 - Fabulous Freebirds (Hayes & Garvin) v Smoking Gunns Hayes and Garvin were horrible, horrible, horrible. The Gunns weren't even really good, but they were decent, and they got a lot of shit at the time that they didn't fully deserve. Smoking Gunns Match #12 - Gangstas v Strike Force Easy choice. Strike Force were a good tag team that had good matches with a variety of teams. The Gangstas? Not so much. Strike Force

There was incredible brand loyalty, even then, with the WWWF, and if you wanted wrestling in that part of the country, that was pretty much your only option, since most of the other wrestling was happening in the South. I think in Bruno's case, he was benefitted by being put with guys who could really work most of the time, or guys like Graham who were so flashy that they could hold their own as a character on that level. They also had the benefit of running shows in an enormous market and promoting wrestling at Madison Square Garden, which made them big time. In Bruno's case, he was an Italian-American in an area dominated by Italian-Americans and was pushed as a good role model for children. Pedro was able to draw well later on as well, but pretty much every decision Capitol Sports (precursor to Titan Sports) made in the 1970s was based on ethnicity. In fact, one of the reasons Backlund was chosen as champion was because they wanted a non-ethnic whitey to fill the role. They also had their own world champ, which made them a bigger deal. In Backlund's case, I personally love his working style and think he had loads of natural babyface charisma, but I'll admit that in the latter days of his run, he was probably dorky and behind the times because his entire act was so far removed from the pop culture of the time. In the ring, I really felt he delivered though.

Going through the territories: ALABAMA Best time period was 1987-1988 when Eddie Gilbert was booking and Paul E. Dangerously was the lead heel manager. They both worked together extremely well, and one of my favorite angles ever happened in this time period between Tony Anthony and Tom Pritchard. I've explained it a few times on the board, so I'll copy and paste what I wrote here: FLORIDA There's some good stuff here, but some of it may not be so easy to get into. This was considered the "model promotion" at one point, as Gordon Solie peaked here as an announcer and Jack Brisco was a great top babyface, but when Brisco got older, the model sort of fell apart and they kept repeating devil worshipping angles with Kevin Sullivan out of not knowing what else to do. You may like some of the 80s stuff more than me, though, just because they were constantly running angles, probably more angles with more frequency than any other group out there at the time. Pick up the Battle of the Belts shows (especially II with a near-***** Flair/Windham match) and I think the other two are a good sampling of the talent in the area as well. Footage of this is easier to find than you think, and the more post-1974 and pre-1982 or so footage you can find, the better, especially getting to see Dusty as one of the most over babyfaces of all time in his home territory. GEORGIA I'm a fan, but it's really uneven. Familiar faces tended to pop in and out a lot (Muraco, Piper, Freebirds, Jimmy Hart, Cornette, DiBiase, Flair, Lawler, etc) so this may be easier to get into for that reason alone. Lots of the booking sucks though, especially 1983 and after. Best TV match I've seen involved Flair and Garvin (if you like Starrcade '87, you'll like this, if not, you probably won't) from sometime in May of '84. SMW SMW is great, but make sure you're a fan of that Southern territorial style before you delve into it. Start with some of the others I've mentioned, especially Memphis and Mid South, and if you like those, see Cornette apply most of the same tricks later on. MID SOUTH This is as close to a perfect wrestling company as I think there's ever been. Go here for my general thoughts on what made the territory work and why I enjoyed it. AWA Meh. Some stuff is definitely worth seeing, but by and large, I really hate the AWA. If it's a Rockers v Somers/Rose match, you want it bad. If it's a Bockwinkel, Hennig, Hansen or Martel match, you want it. The booking sucks most of the time though, and they're dreadfully behind the times during the era where the most footage is available on tape. Find what you can from the 70s though, as I know you're a huge Bobby Heenan fan and you'll probably like that stuff even more, as most who've seen it say it's better than his WWF stuff. ST LOUIS Most of the matches tend to be joined in progress. There's a nice feel to the shows, and they're immaculately produced to make you feel like you're seeing something really big and important, but the TV is more of a brief overview than anything substantial from what I've been able to gather. WWF I doubt I have to do much in the way of explaining things here. MID ATLANTIC If you like a lot of mid 80s NWA that you've seen, you'll probably like the Mid Atlantic style, since the booking is pretty much the same style and there are lots of familiar faces (Flair, Steamboat, Piper, Valentine, Snuka, etc). Many of the TV matches here are also joined in progress, but they usually show the majority of the match and the heat for everything is off the charts! I think this is very easy to get into. PORTLAND Watch the AWA feud between the Rockers and Somers/Rose first. If you like it, check out Portland, because there's lots of Buddy Rose footage to be found. Piper also showed up there quite often, and there are some good Flair title defenses from that area. They also hosted guys like Curt Hennig, Dynamite Kid and Rick Martel, and there was a big emphasis on really long, good matches that were almost always shown in full. MEMPHIS I think of everything, this may be the easiest to get into, because it's flashy and over the top like the WWF, but the storylines almost always follow logic. They establish a group of core stars and stick with them over time. Lawler is probably the best American babyface there's ever been, honestly. I think you'll love the lunacy of Randy Savage in the DVDs you're getting soon as well. WORLD CLASS It was magic during the Von Erichs/Freebirds era and sort of fell apart after they ran the Dynamic Duo (Chris Adams and Gino Hernandez) as top heels and blew off their big feud. Lots of great tags and six-mans, and there's very little bad between 1983 and 1985. You might also pick up some episodes of AJ Classics that feature some of your favorites going against opponents you're not so familiar with. You'll get a chance to see guys you like in longer matches in better video quality, and doing so will also expose you to other guys which can open doors for you in that stuff as well.

I stand corrected. That statement was made in haste, I guess because WWE has never really had an over black woman in their company at all, unless you count Sapphire as being over. Jacqueline was over in WCW big time when she was beating up Kevin Sullivan's jobber opponents outside the ring on Nitro in early 1997 though, but not to the point where putting her over Disco Inferno was by any means justified.

Found this and thought it was hilarious. JBL's digs at much of the ECW roster:

Vote for the team that you feel had the best run as a tag team from 1985 to 2005. Voting will last approximately 24 hours and the winner of each match will advance to the second round. Because the goal of the tournament is to promote discussion, please feel free to explain how you came to your decision as much as possible. Match #9 - Edge & Rey Misterio Jr v Raven & Perry Saturn Match #10 - Eliminators v Shawn Michaels & Diesel Match #11 - Fabulous Freebirds (Hayes & Garvin) v Smoking Gunns Match #12 - Gangstas v Strike Force

Now that's funny. Milli Vanilli had an enormous impact on the music industry, but I won't be voting for them in a music tournament anytime soon.

It's sad, but has there ever been an over black woman in wrestling? Even the audience wasn't as into her as they were the others on Monday night. I hate that that's the case, but it's something I picked up on when watching the segment.

Bruno occasionally had good matches, but he wasn't the best of that bunch for sure. I think stuff from guys like Backlund, Muraco and Pat Patterson tends to age far better, just because Bruno was a brawler and brawls have been done better countless times, but the basics of what makes wrestling good never change, even as the styles advance or regress. I want to say more, but I'll chime in later here.

Marty said everything I would have said in the way of explanations. I just also wanted to make the point that Hall and Nash are one of the *worst* tag teams of all time and totally killed the belts in WCW by never defending them and pursuing separate interests most of the time. Match #5 - Chris Benoit & Dean Malenko Match #6 - Demolition Match #7 - Doom Match #8 - Dream Team (Valentine/Beefcake)

**What I'm about to say contains spoilers** I'm really surprised they used the draft to rape Smackdown. RAW Top faces -- Michaels, Cena, Benjamin, Van Dam, Big Show, Kane Top heels -- HHH, Angle, Jericho, Carlito, Edge Smackdown Top faces -- Misterio, Booker T, Batista, Benoit, Undertaker Top heels -- Guerrero, JBL, Christian, Hassan Smackdown features the better workers, but overall, it's the guys on RAW who are considered the real stars. This also shows how thin the top tier is for both shows, because of those on RAW, only HHH, Angle and Michaels are consistent main eventers. On Smackdown, only Batista, JBL and Undertaker are consistent main eventers. RAW also has two talk shows and Smackdown has none, which makes no sense at all. I'm assuming the Highlight Reel will be ditched completely?? I get the feeling RVD was moved back to RAW just because he made it known in those Internet interviews how much he preferred Smackdown and they just wanted to piss him off. He got a superstar reaction last night for sure, but coming back from this injury was the chance to bring him back as a headliner, and having him get beat up in his first appearance and pairing him with the IC champ only puts him right back in the middle of the card. I guess Jericho/Cena will be the title feud for now, but I don't see them holding the blowoff until Summerslam. We'll see what happens.

Vote for the team that you feel had the best run as a tag team from 1985 to 2005. Voting will last approximately 24 hours and the winner of each match will advance to the second round. Because the goal of the tournament is to promote discussion, please feel free to explain how you came to your decision as much as possible. Match #5 - Chris Benoit & Dean Malenko v New Age Outlaws Match #6 - Demolition v Outsiders Match #7 - Doom v Powers of Pain Match #8 - Dream Team (Valentine/Beefcake) v Public Enemy

Angle/Flair was a fun one-time viewing, but I'm afraid I'd hate it if I tried to watch it again. That said, it's the best thing Flair has done since the turn of the century, although I'm not quite sure just how much that means. Loved the way that the pre-match promo set up some things that were played off. Am I the only one who has noticed that Flair seems totally unable to have a decent haircut these days? Either cut it short or find a way to not have cowlicks, Ric -- your hair has always been one of your calling cards, and it makes you seem even older when it's messed up and all over the place. It was also nice to see a RAW with no HHH, although the time was right to center the show around Batista in his absence. Admittedly though, they've shunned Cena since he jumped, so him getting the main event treatment and the Hogan/Michaels rub (although I think he may have done more to put them over than they did him) was a fun viewing. Bad, bad match though - HBK struggling struggling struggling to make the hot tag to a point where his overacting was just ridiculous. Jericho had both lines of the night -- telling Tomko, "You weren't even in the match, jackass!" when Tomko is offering his input for why Cena won, and when Nash is mentioned as a possible mystery partner, saying "Nash would tear his hamstring getting up to answer the phone." Lots of shooty stuff tonight, which was weird, as Flair talked about marks and shooting in his promo and Jericho and Christian took shots at Marty Jannetty (Christian: "I thought he was incarcerated!") and Kevin Nash. Why is Edge being buried? That's all I got.

I watched Eddie Gilbert/Nikita Koloff from UWF Power Pro 10/87 this weekend, thinking maybe I'd see a surprisingly good match, but it wasn't so good, as most of it is spent lying on the mat and strangely enough, they don't even really play the crowd. I expected these two to have a much better match than they did here. From the same tape, saw Windham/Zbyszko from TBS in late '87 joined in progress, but I want to see the complete match, as what was here was very basic but very cool, with Zbyszko doing his typical stalling act and also finding several ways to torture Windham through simple headlocks and scissorholds. Flair/Luger v Simmons/Douglas was a fun little fast-paced match, and I actually thought Simmons was the best worker of the bunch in this one.

*bump* The tournament begun today, so feel free to chime in.