May 28, 2005, 04:35 PM
Torch Talk with Kevin Nash, pt. 8
Originally Published: May 28, 2005
Torch Newsletter #863
In the following eighth installment of a six-hour "Torch Talk" conducted on March 24, Nash talks about the early stages of the NWO, Hulk Hogan joining the NWO, the NWO being revived in WWE, and Eric Bischoff's attitude during the rise and fall of WCW.
Wade Keller: If size is so important, then how do you explain Ric Flair and Shawn Michaels? They're a lot smaller than you, Hulk, Scott Hall. Do they hit a threshold for size that Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit don't?
Kevin Nash: Right, I just think their charisma made them bigger than life. The thing was with Shawn, Shawn was a buzzsaw. Shawn had real good intensity. When he was a heel he was able to kick it into gear. He made what Scott Hall and I liked to call Southern white meat babyface comeback. That Tommy Rich, punch, punch. That's the biggest problem babyfaces have in this business now. Most of the f---in' babyfaces can't throw a f---in' punch. You look at the old Southern babyfaces, the Ricky Mortons - those guys could sell their asses off and make you cry, and when it comes time for a comeback, they can throw it down. I watched Marty Jannetty the other night on Smackdown, and f---in' he was throwing a better punch than I've seen the last ten weeks on the show. He stood out because if you can work, you can work. I guarantee he was blown sky high and felt like a fish out of water when he went through the curtain in the back. I was so happy for him, man. I heard he got a contract, they signed him. F--- yeah. Way to go, Marty. That to me is the business right there. That's what it's about. If you know and can go, there's always a spot for you. Another thing you learn early in your career, if you ain't afraid to put somebody over, you'll always have a job. You'll always have a job. I'm 0-5 in TNA. I haven't won a PPV (match) since I came back. It don't matter none to me. My biggest problem is that there isn't any interjection between the young and old talent.
Keller: It hasn't been talked about a lot, but I've heard that Scott Hall and perhaps you were on the phone a lot with Eric Bischoff formulating the Outsiders invasion angle.
Nash: It was (Kevin) Sullivan, too. Sullivan doesn't get any credit for that angle, and it was hugely Sullivan. Sullivan was one of these guys who believed in heat, heat, heat, heat, heat. When we first came in and were getting heat on all of the babyfaces, especially (Lex) Luger and Sting, they were like, what the f---, we're getting beat down to the point that it's ridiculous. I remember Sullivan going, "Brother, it's like a hot air balloon, you can't stop the flame and shut it off eight feet off the ground. You gotta let heat build. He did. He let us get a good six months of heat. When Sting finally went into the rafters and started to attack us, f---, we made Dallas Page (a star) because he got to us. Anybody who got to us was instantly made.
Keller: And there were so few who did. That was one of the criticisms of the angle - whether it was the fault of the bookers or the talent depth, there weren't a lot of Sting and Dallas Pages on the depth chart on the other side.
Nash: No, there wasn't. To me, the greatest thing on earth was to come down and get heat on somebody and get that comeback going off the air every Monday night. That's all we did. You had four or five guys flat-backing twice a night, rolling to the floor, and saying "f--- you," and then giving a little something (off camera) for the house at the end of the show. You maybe took four bumps a night. It was the greatest gig in the world. There were a lot of guys, like Roddy (Piper), who was just limited physically. Not mentally or psychology-wise. Roddy was limited physically with his hip. We couldn't wiener dog him. We couldn't get to him and bump him hard like we did some of the other babyfaces in order to give them the comeback.
Keller: What were your early impressions of Eric Bischoff? All he did was hand you this big contract, but otherwise you didn't know him well.
Nash: I didn't know him, but I knew I had heat with him because he told me to stay (in WCW) when he was making his move to take over power right before I left. I remember him telling me, "Don't leave." I said I was gone. He took it as "f-- you," and he really didn't want to bring me in because of it. Dallas said, "You really need to bring him in." He was hot at me. When he brought me in, there was still resentment that I left. When Dallas told him what I made my last year in WCW, he got it. Bill Watts had gone down with a nightly deal with everyone and killed everybody's business. He was one of those boys who came into the office and (imitating Watts): "You know what, hell, I've been a wrestler, they'll work for nothing because they can't do nothing else. You can drop their pay scale." Thanks, Bill. There's one guy I'd shoot in the face with a gun if I could get away with it. But God bless him.
It took a while, but it was one of those deals where Eric likes to drink beer and I like to drink beer. We are in jets flying back and forth to towns and throwing ideas around and the next thing you knew, we became friends. It was a synergy and he liked ideas and Scott and I had a hundred of them a night. When we'd go in a room and there'd be a finish needed and guys would be looking at their boots, Scott would be, "How about this?" And I'd be, "How about this, or this, or this?" Sting would go, "If that works, how about it?" We'd get the process going on a nightly basis. We weren't afraid to open our mouths because we had been to the show. I know that guys in WCW didn't like to always hear, "In New York, we'd do things like this." They'd think, "If I hear the New York thing one more time, I'm going to strangle myself." But Bischoff told me later on he was more impressed with Hall and I because we left and got over and came back. He appreciated it more than guys who stayed in WCW and never went to the show. I think Bischoff appreciated that you were a Yankee (laughs). I think Bischoff appreciated that if you got over at the show (WWE), then you got over. There ain't many guys who have been to the show that have been over. There have been a lot of guys who have been over in a lot of territories, but there haven't been a lot of guys who have been over in New York.
Keller: He was impressed by you, but were you impressed by Bischoff and his vision and his motivation and his big ideas?
Nash: When he laid down the NWO angle the first time that we met in Phoenix, he came down to my house and we spent like a day and a half at my house. He spent the night. We went out and had beers and went to a strip joint and hung out and talked. He laid the angle out and I went, "Holy f---! That'll work!" When he laid it out, just the grassroots nuts and bolts of the angle, I was just, like, oh yeah.
Keller: Did it play out exactly as it was laid out, or were there significant changes?
Nash: It played out better. When Hulk came down and dropped the leg and they threw the sh-- into the ring, I was just, oh, better than expected. Wow! Ten fold. We got back way more than expected. It's so funny, I don't know if I live in Daytona Beach because of that or not. I mean, I live twelve miles from the Ocean Center. To me, I live in NWO Genesis Land.
Keller: How did the idea come about for Hogan to go heel and join the NWO?
Nash: It was actually my finish. I probably will never get credit for it, but I said to Eric, "Let me give you a finish." Because he wouldn't tell me who the third man was. I laid it out. He was silent. It was originally going to be Sting. I think what happened is Hogan watched the television show and saw the last train to Clarkston leaving at the station, and Hulk's the smartest guy in the business ever. And Hulk said, "No, that train ain't leaving without me. If I'm going to turn, this is what I'm going to turn on." The thing was, we gave it that urban grassroots heel feel, and Hulk gave us the validity. Hulk gave us instant credibility because Hogan turned heel with these two guys.
Keller: How long before that day did you know it was going to be Hulk?
Nash: The day of.
Keller: There were rumors that it might be him or might be someone else, but you didn't know until that day?
Nash: Not until that day.
Keller: Was there ever any negative thought that Hulk was moving in on something that was hot, and we'd rather keep it just with us?
Nash: God no! Not from me. From me, it was just like, f--- man - and Scott and I always called him the Godfather - to me, he's Brando. That's who he is. Hulk's the Godfather of Wrestling. When it comes down to it, people are always saying, "Hulk can't work, Hulk can't do this." I'm thinking to myself, Hulk at 49 and 50 stole two WrestleManias in a row. And he stole one with Vince, who can't work. For somebody who can't f---in' work to steal two WrestleManias, and one was with Rock who is probably of all the people I've ever touched in my life and grabbed and thrown off the ropes, when he said he was the most electrifying, there ain't no f---in' doubt about it. That's the best f---in' pure athlete to ever be in that ring.
Keller: And if he had stayed in wrestling, could he have been the biggest ever?
Nash: F---! We all hate him because he's so f---in' great. He was so great so early, everybody hates him. We sound like old school Charlies complaining that he's never paid his dues. At the same time, he's out in Hollywood now and I want him to be successful. He's such a break of the mold. He makes me able to get movie roles because people say, "What do you do?" I say, "I wrestle." They said, "Have you wrestled The Rock?" I say, "Yeah, I have." He's broke that mold where wrestlers are the sh--s. Thanks to Duane, we all have a second career.
Keller: What were your earliest impressions from being around Hulk Hogan for the first time in you career? Many wrestlers credit him for their having jobs, but others say Hulk looks out for himself only, so watch out. Did you immediately say, "I know Hulk's out for himself, I accept that"?
Nash: Yeah, I knew he was. But the thing was, at that point it was a situation where Hulk was out for himself. Okay, Hulk's got his deal and we've got our deal. People say guaranteed money killed the business, but at the same time, guaranteed money made that work because it didn't matter what the f--- Hulk did, we did, what anybody did, we were getting our cheese and he was getting his cheese. To me, I know that of all the pictures I've got, I've got a great picture of the three of us getting back at Joe Louis Arena with Hulk in the middle and Scott and I are on each side and the whole Joe Louis Arena is in the background standing up, and it's Austin and Rock on the floor laying and there's not a f---in' soul behind us in this Joe Louis Arena that's packed sitting on their ass. Let me get this right: We came in, we beat up their two biggest babyfaces, the crowd exploded in Detroit, did it again in Montreal, did it again in Chicago, and they beat us off at WrestleMania and made us work against each other. Gee, I wonder if there was any animosity that we f---in' got over as the NWO in the first place. To me, it was just like, I could just hear guys going, "Let me get this right. We're going to put these guys over after they almost put us out of business." So Vince goes (imitating Vince): "Well, God damn, we're not gonna do that!"
Keller: So you think Vince might actually have done something that wasn't best for the big picture out of resentment?
Nash: I absolutely think so. I absolutely think so. There is no f---ing way on earth that we didn't pop that territory when we came in there. I know for a fact that when they added us to the Buffalo house show, we sold 3,500 tickets more. We were putting asses in seats. When we talked out in the Bradley Center in Milwaukee for that first thing, when we came out, I felt like the Beatles in Shea Stadium. I mean, it was live, live. F---, I could have pissed electricity that night. It was one of those deals when Hulk went toe-to-toe in Rosemont with Rock and they thought for sure they'd say, "Rock, Rock," and that crowd went 100 percent "Hogan, Hogan," they knew they were so f---ed. And it became a situation like, f--- that, kill the cancer. You brought a cancer in, kill the cancer. I'm thinking to myself, "No, you own this!" Me and Scott were supposed to f--- Steve and then we were supposed to f--- Rock in the final. The day of, we do double-jobs and then we come down and get bounced out by Hogan - that's a day of show change. What the f--- does that tell you? Is that was panic booking or what?
Keller: Did you ever outright ask Vince?
Nash: You know, I said something to him drunk at the f---in' bachelor party (for Hunter and Stephanie). I said something like, "F---, man, I guess you got even for me leaving." He looked at me like, "Nah, dude." I was like, "Ah, it's all right."
Keller: So you walked away not getting confirmation either way.
Nash: You know, I don't need any confirmation either way. I know what the deal was.
Keller: Let's jump back again. Who originally came up with the name New World Order?
Nash: What the f--- was his name? Craig Leathers came up with it. Neal Pruitt was the voice. Actually, he also came up with the logo, Craig did.
Keller: There was a time when every third t-shirt on the street had that logo on it.
Nash: You know what, I just got done with a lawsuit against Turner because I never got paid a dime for any of those t-shirts. I waited until they closed the company, then went after them. I just settled with them finally, but it was just, "Uncle man, you guys paid me 1,500 dollars for t-shirts?" (laughs) I came down to Daytona Beach at that point before I lived here and there wasn't a t-shirt place on the market that didn't have eight of them in the front of their store. I mean, 3:16 was a hot-selling shirt, but f--- I'll put the NWO against it. I'll tell you what, when we came back to New York, the NWO sold again.
Keller: When the NWO first took off and Nitro began its winning streak, were you still keeping a close eye on the WWF and seeing what Shawn Michaels, Sean Waltman, and Hunter were up to? Did you talk to them regularly? Was there professional jealousy that separated you guys?
Nash: No, not really. They worked so much harder than we did. They were still working 25 dates a month. This whole thing when you're working New York, even to this day, I'll call Paul sometimes three times to his one. I don't get hot about it. I work three times a month. He works 15 to 18 times a month these days. You just know that it's going to take him a little longer to get back to you. That's the Clique rule. You never call out a friend for not returning a call because you know he will get back to you when he can get back to you. When we were red hot and running hard, sometimes we didn't return calls. Now that they're doing their thing and getting ready for WrestleMania, I don't expect many calls back. I've still critiqued the show and told Paul, "I don't like this and I don't like that." I'll still tell him things I don't like. I rarely watch anything besides his stuff unless I just happen to catch it flipping channels. That's how I caught Marty vs. Angle the other night. They showed the insert of Marty and Shawn working together. To me, I haven't talked to Shawn since, I don't know how much Shawn was a part of it, but what a nice rub back to a buddy. I mean, I tell you what, I've watched Shawn grow from the Shawn that I met to the Shawn that I know now. What an incredible human being he is now. He is just, he is as good as it gets. It's nice to see guys, especially your closest friends on earth, when I've got a couple of them falling off the face of the earth, it's nice to see some of them go the opposite way.
Keller: Did you ever feel bad for Vince when things were going so well for you in WCW?
Nash: Yes, I did. I remember one time it was really funny. We were in a leer jet. It was me, Hogan, Bischoff, Scott, and Macho. Bischoff said, "We're gonna put them mother f---ers out of business!" It was silence. Hulk was the first to speak up. He said, "You'll never put that mother f---er out of business." I threw in next, and then Randy threw in, and then Scott. We all said, "Dude, you don't know what you're f---in' doing. You basically started a nuclear reactor. All you've done is get a junkyard dog and put him in the corner. You have no idea what you've done."
Keller: What drove Eric Bischoff? Was there a single-mindedness of wanting to put Vince out of business for some irrational reason?
Nash: No, I don't think it was irrational. I think he had a vision and everybody laughed at him that he could compete. He said if he could buy Vince's talent, he could compete. That's what drives the business, it's talent.
Keller: When he had success and was riding high, was the only way for him to keep score at that point how poorly WWF did compared to him?
Nash: I know when the numbers came down and we were doing fives for three hours and they were doing twos, it was huge for him. You've heard all those stories about how they had him come in and interview and treated him like sh--. Whether they're true or not, I heard Jim Ross used to make him sit outside his office and type on the floor and sh-- like that. A lot of people f---ed with him. There's a karma in life. If you f--- with someone and if they don't violently come after you, a lot of times there is a certain degree of redemption. I think Eric got that redemption. He had such a f---in' high for two years, and the low was bad when that hit. It was almost like a coke buzz. You got your buzz, you feel like Superman, and all of a sudden, he thought, "Oh, f---, I've got to give more." There wasn't anything more to give. The high was so high and the low was so low, that he left there feeling defeated. I spent a lot of time with Eric and he's a good friend. I told him, "Dude, you did something nobody else will ever do."
