Loss

It's a habit I can't possibly break. It's obviously not hate reading though, that doesn't exist. I'm just waiting for the board to get better. Cute.

It was credited to Dave, which Dave claims he never said.

I thought SMW struck a perfect note when they used Pat Benatar's "Hit Me With Your Best Shot" to hype him coming in for Superbowl of Wrestling.

Those are valid points, and I do like the idea of the tag team with Zayn a lot.

I agree with the Martel-Razor match where Ramon won the IC title for the first time being a really good heel performance from Martel. He made Razor look great and put him over convincingly in a solid match. I think his performance within that match is better than the match itself, though. Didn't he also have a surprisingly good, long match with Luger on an episode of Raw once? (EDIT: I see that I even mentioned it earlier in the thread.) I'll admit, though, that in both cases, that's Rick Martel with The Model gimmick, but really working as more of a veteran than anything else. From "The Model" run up to the Tatanka feud in 1992, it's much tougher. Complete side note, but I remember one of my first moments where I was disappointed at how wrestling was a lie was when I read in the newspaper that Rick Martel was on sabbatical because of the steroid trial, then he came back with a much different body type while Vince McMahon explained his absence by saying that he was modeling in Paris.

What would fans buy him doing?

I absolutely think there's something to this. Where it didn't work is when he was a babyface in his 40s.

And also, I'd love for Daniel Bryan to come back and slay Brock Lesnar while they build around him for the next few years, but that's not the only way he can be used, and at this point, the timing of the injuries has been so bad that I'm not sold that he even should have another main event run. If anyone has a different idea that would do these things, I'm all ears. - Use him in a way on TV that has the potential to build momentum for him again and eventually make the last two injuries seem like a distant memory - Put him in a role where if he's injured yet again, they aren't having to sacrifice too much of whatever their plan was - Give exposure to some lower-card guys who need it and would benefit from a good match with Bryan - See if the fan support is still there to elevate him to main events without preordaining that it absolutely is or isn't there I'd love to hear other ideas if they can hit all four of those points.

Also, I'm really puzzled by Cena's appearance on Tough Enough tonight. First of all, he's still obviously in immense pain, and this is a guy who has worked through some awful injuries and delivered great matches without losing a step. So he probably has it really rough right now, and that sucks for him. But also, perhaps I was wrong, but it seemed like they were building up seeing Cena's face to be something much bigger than that. I didn't expect to see him before Summerslam, although I could also see the logic in him showing up on the go-home show so that fans know the match is on. I hate saying stuff doesn't matter because I think everything should and want everything to matter, but I guess he could still do a brawl and send Rollins scurrying from the ring on Raw, since they probably consider Tough Enough a different worked reality than what happens on regular WWE TV. Still though, considering how gruesome those photos were, his big reveal had the chance to be sort of a moment.

I think if you shoot down an idea, you should come up with a better one. Naysaying "that'll never happen" posts may be true much of the time, but they aren't very fun to read.

Who is above and behind him as a worker on the Samoan family tree?

How does he compare to Tracy Smothers, Tom Pritchard, Buddy Roberts, Tommy Rich, Jeff Jarrett, Stan Lane, Brad Armstrong, Bobby Fulton, Robert Gibson, John Tatum, Eddie Gilbert, Lanny Poffo, Steve Keirn, Robert Fuller, Billy Joe Travis, Iceman Parsons, Eric Embry, Chris Candido, Dick Slater, Bill Irwin, Terry Taylor and Buddy Landell? I'd put some above him and quite a few below him, but I think those are a solid group of guys for comparison.

How was he in CMLL? I know the other wrestlers didn't enjoy working with him because they weren't used to the stiffness.

I prefer the version of that song that had Sherri shrieking where the annoyance was intentional to the version that had Shawn doing vocals that was unknowingly the same effect. For me anyway.

Hype specials like that are great, but would they mean more on USA? I need to ask what the value is in selling a show to people who are already getting it.

And Stephen Amell shows the value in being a professionally trained actor. WWE is obviously committed to the variety show vision of what they are, so they should have acting coaches at the Performance Center and teach these guys how to do it right. The same thing happened several years ago when Thea Vidale was in all of those backstage skits and outclassed everyone.

I LOVE the idea of Stephanie telling him he has to start from the bottom and programming him with someone like Slater to start. They could stretch that out for two years and just let the crowd determine how far to take it. That is absolutely a terrible idea and one that the crowds will no doubt refuse to play along with. I challenge you to make ten consecutive posts with no naysaying.

Miz has really turned the corner and is a tremendous persona now, as opposed to a guy working hard to act like a tremendous persona. There's a confidence there that wasn't there before. He seems to deliver in every segment he's in these days. It makes me feel bad that he was pushed a little too soon and too hard.

I LOVE the idea of Stephanie telling him he has to start from the bottom and programming him with someone like Slater to start. They could stretch that out for two years and just let the crowd determine how far to take it.

Cool.

I will admit that the one thing that really amused me in old guy DX was the running gag of finding ways to get Shawn out of the skit when something vulgar was about to happen.

That's really cool and makes me hope they'll try that in other markets. In a post-PPV world, they could even do multi-day singular-themed shows if they wanted. I know King of the Ring was a mixed bag when it was around, but that would be an awesome thing to bring back as a two or three night event.

It's hard for me to think of much cooler than Kelis performing at a Wrestlemania. Some indy wrestler needs to use "Caught Out There" as entrance music, by the way. Sorry for the momentary diversion.

It's been a while but yeah, I enjoyed it for the standards of Attitude era WWF. Is Shawn/Diesel from Good Friends Better Enemies a good match, or just good for a WWF match at the time? I understand not "penalizing" someone for not having great matches in a time and place where no one really is, but I still don't really agree with it. I'm not someone who really factors in the norms and standards of the time as much as some probably do, because every wrestler can change that standard if they really want to do that. I mean, it's something to consider, for sure, so I wouldn't call it unimportant, but I don't like it as a crutch to explain away nothing matches. Here's another reason why. The right worker raises the game of everyone around him and improves the overall in-ring style instead of just being a cog in the wheel and maintaining the status quo. It's those wrestlers who make the in-ring style change for the better. Plenty of great workers are cogs in the wheel of an existing style, but as odd as it sounds, I do think Shawn was a transformative WWF-style worker. And to an extent, Bret and Shawn raised the bar because the matches were generally better during the New Generation era than they were during Rock N Wrestling. The WWF employed wrestlers as good as Bret, Shawn, Owen and the 1-2-3 Kid in the 1980s, but their output didn't match what the 90s group was putting out. If anything, Austin's physical limitations dumbed down the working style because it necessitated all-over-the-building brawls to disguise that he couldn't really take bumps in the middle of the ring. That was also the rise of bells-and-whistles wrestling as a rule instead of as a special exception, as most of the big matches were filled with lots of crowd brawling, ref bumps, run-ins and weapon shots. I have no problem with that style, really, but I do think it's inferior to the simplicity of a wrestling match. That's not to say Shawn gets off easy there. His matches had all sorts of booking help and special tricks from 1997 on, and he was a guy who partially made his name taking bumps off of high things and through pioneering popular gimmick matches. But he excelled against opponents like Diesel and Razor Ramon who didn't do too much of note with other people besides Bret (who I'd put above both Shawn and Austin), whereas Austin wasn't having barnburners with Undertaker and Kane. Both have their positives. Both have their drawbacks. I would rank Shawn above Austin not as someone whose in-ring style I prefer, but as someone who I think simply had the better in-ring career, and I say that pretending that Wrestlemania XIV was his last match. Given time and opportunity, I may be able to name a few hundred wrestlers that I'd rather watch than Shawn, or that work a style that's more suited to my personal tastes. I'm not sure I could do the same for Austin at his best. But that doesn't mean I think they are better, just more enjoyable in the moment. Austin had a 14-year in-ring career. Shawn worked for 15 years before the layoff, so I think they are a really good comparison to each other. Both had their first real standout series of matches about three years in (I don't count War Games for Austin), and both in tag feuds -- Blonds vs Steamboat/Douglas and Rockers vs Rose/Somers. You could point to one-offs before that like Austin-Dustin at Havoc, but as a series that was getting MOTYC buzz, it took longer than that. Austin branched out as a singles wrestler much sooner than Shawn comparatively and had excellent matches with Steamboat in '94. By 1996 when he showed up in the WWF, he was a complete worker. Shawn didn't get a similar chance until 1992, and for most of that year, he was finding his voice. He wasn't consistently awesome in 1993, but Austin really wasn't in 1994 either. Still, I'd say '93 Shawn was better than '94 Austin. By 1994, Shawn put the pieces together and became the Shawn most of us think about primarily when considering his candidacy. I don't fault anyone for voting either way, and I can understand the case for putting Austin over Shawn. I don't see Shawn as a landslide pick at all. However, I think it's only fair to scrutinize Austin under a microscope (no pun intended) in this thread since we've done that for years in Shawn's direction.

I remember the promo where Shawn responded to the gay slurs by kissing HHH on the lips. The funniest part of that was Rude's threatening look back at him, basically telling him to not even try it.