Loss

I liked DX all the way up until they got the music, so not very long. I really loved them pre-Montreal in 1997, if only because Shawn Michaels at that stage was probably the most viscerally hated heel in the history of the company. So many moments, but that promo where he has the Canadian flags tucked in his shorts is pretty wild.

That match was good?

Again, I am not talking about Rock knowing Hogan was the more cheered guy. I think anyone could have predicted that. Austin faced Rock at WM X-7 and Austin was the favored guy, but Rock was his equal. Rock faced Hogan and Hogan outclassed him so much in terms of commanding the crowd that Rock looked like the lesser star of the two. The lesser star. Not the heel. The lesser star.

Rock came across, even in winning, as a far lesser star.

Pat Patterson laid out the match ahead of time. I'm not referring to Rock picking up on that he was being booed, but rather picking up on that Hogan made himself look like ten times the star. The match was not about Rock, it was about Hulk.

Actually, the story goes that Rock didn't realize that Hogan had upstaged him until after the match was over, so at No Way Out 2003, he didn't let it happen again.

Whoever said Hogan was carried by Rock in that match -- I'd say it was the opposite. Hogan totally showed him up and turned the crowd on him. That was Hulk's match all the way.

Who is someone Austin has carried? Who is his Sid or Kevin Nash?

Exactly! To me, this is the most underappreciated aspect of Ricky Morton. He didn't get over as a heartthrob because of his matinee idol looks. He did it because he was so incredible at generating sympathy that younger girls wanted to root for him. By the way check out this entrance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsF2aTy2--E

Nash has admitted that he knew what Shawn was doing in that match, but that he didn't fault him at all because he was just trying to show that he should have been in that spot. They've talked about how Shawn would yell at Hall and Nash on car rides that he was twice as good as Hall and ten times as good as Nash and it wasn't fair that they were in better spots. Of course, Nash responded that he was still the one who turned heads in airports and that was what it was all about. It's that sort of thing that makes me realize when guys like Hall and Nash used to talk about how no one was good enough to take their spots, they were also talking about outmaneuvering them politically. They clearly see the backstage machinations as part of working and have less respect for guys that either don't play that game as much or aren't very good at it. The only way to earn the respect of a conman is to out-con him, as the old saying goes.

Huh? This isn't the case at all.

Yeah, I'm not thinking first-time opponents as much as I am matches he had that were not part of featured feuds. He and Bigelow had a house show series for a couple of months and even closed out a pay-per-view in 1993. The Backlund match was good and along the lines of what I'm thinking, and I'm sure we could find others. I shiver as I say this since Bret-Flair comparisons rarely go well, but I compare it to someone like Flair having strong one-off matches with guys like Pillman, Zenk, Eaton, Ace, Gilbert, etc.

Morton credits Ken Lucas for teaching him how to be a babyface. I wish we had more Ken Lucas on tape.

Thinking about it more, maybe Bret is the chef that needs a few times to create a gourmet meal, but if he has to work with all new ingredients, the first time or two you might be better off just going to McDonald's.

I think it says something about him (not sure what) that he didn't really have very many strong one-off matches with guys he wasn't programmed with regularly. I don't think for Bret it's a matter of not delivering in short matches, although that's part of it. I think the bigger issue is that he didn't really do great things with opponents he didn't work in extended feuds. This is where I think of TV matches with Vader, Mankind, Tom Pritchard, Kwang, Crush and others. The 1-2-3 Kid match is an outlier.

I think you're probably right that he's not a Top 100 worker, but I could see mileage varying greatly on him and I think everyone should at least check out his best stuff. Writing him off sight unseen would be a mistake. Hisakatsu Oya vs Hayabusa (06/95, 08/95) Hisakatsu Oya vs Mr. Gannosuke (01/99) Those are the ones that stand out just thinking about him, but if you go back through the Match Discussion Archive, there are more.

I don't think he's the best, but Kikuchi is a good guy to think about in this discussion. Jack Brisco should also be talked about.

I'm interested in direct links to these posts.

Parties, do you consider Chris Jericho and Edge "stars"? If you mean "the guy", yeah, I agree, but they have created a decent amount of second and third-tier main eventers.

Are they wrong about their specific points? I'm more interested in that. Sometimes, wrestling shows are just shit. That's not a reflection on the person who points it out's fandom. It's a reflection on the people who put it all together.

I'm not creating a strawman out of your post. I just think it's much easier to say "You're being too negative" than it is to say "Here's my thoughtful response that explains why I disagree with you on this point". It's not about being too positive or too negative, it's about making interesting points that others can understand, whether they agree with them or not.

People who watch to complain don't exist. They aren't real. I refuse to believe that they are. If you think that, name names instead of talking about this boogeyman watcher who apparently just lives to complain complain complain. It should be easy if there as many of these unicorns out there as some seem to think there are. I do think lots of people watch and react honestly to what they see, which is what we want people to do I would think. Other people should stop being concerned with how many of their opinions are positive or negative and instead just be happy they are watching and talking. If you're tired of negativity, a better show would cure that, so direct your anger toward WWE and leave people alone about not loving everything they see.

It's also not Vader's job to make everyone else's match interesting. That 200 lb guy with a lot of the same moves better step up his game and step outside of his comfort zone if Vader is on the card. Honky Tonk Man preferred schtick to actual wrestling, so it makes sense that he would have a problem with that.

As Dave has said, he was in the ring a few times when Shawn Michaels had a great match against a ladder. That's hyperbole, obviously, and I think Hall was perfectly fine in those matches and plenty of others. But I've never walked a way from a match thinking, "Wow, Scott Hall really was great there".

What if Bill Watts is hired into WCW in 1992 NOT with the directive to slash costs, but with the directive to do whatever it took to get competitive with Vince? How different might his time have been?