Loss

Sting became a star for the first wrestling promotion ever that didn't have to make money to stay in existence. I'm not sure that being the biggest star in the early days of WCW - even if we're assuming that is true - is a HOF case, because WCW just wasn't successful. WCW was also not a national promotion because of any type of creative vision or the capitalizing on a hot angle or a new star. They were a vanity promotion that swallowed a once-hot territory whole, and just happened to be owned by a television juggernaut. They had great TV exposure as a result of their ownership. So that's why I argue that being a top guy in WCW for a long period of time doesn't really mean much pre-Hogan. I hate having to admit that, because I grew up preferring WCW to the WWF and I still think they were the more enjoyable promotion. Still, if Sting was the "face of WCW", he was the face of a dysfunctional, ineffective wrestling promotion that couldn't do much right except throw random matches together in the ring with workers who happened to be talented sometimes. But even if you just make the case for him as a television wrestling star and judge him on those merits alone, the times when Sting carried the company were hardly a boom period for ratings, especially when you look at some of the other hot periods of wrestling on TBS. He was around, he was over, he worked on top, he was good in the ring when he wanted to be and he had some memorable matches and angles. I just don't quite see him as a HOFer, even though I see why some do. I understand the case for Sting, because he was certainly a star. WCW had a business model that would oddly enough work better now (Poor house show attendance and PPV buys, but fairly reliable TV ratings sounds like a lot of promotions these days). And I even relate to the point that it doesn't feel right to not include him, even if the case isn't there based on the numbers. But instead of making a HOF case, I'll just be happy for him that he got a pretty nice paycheck out of a career built on having a few good matches here and there while he waited for Ric Flair to retire.

This is the thread to post those things for sure. I will edit this in.

It's something you've not watched yet, although you not appreciating the first half of 1994 after suffering through the horror of 1993 is surprising. It's by no means an all-time great era, and there are plenty of flaws, but there's way more good stuff going on both from a wrestling and booking point of view than had been the case in WCW in quite a while.

Lol this is such an asinine statement. Ha! In an odd way, that actually hurt my feelings. Of course it does. Guys like Goldberg and the Giant becoming world champions as rookies stuck out like a sore thumb when it happened, and that was even longer ago. Wrestling works differently now than in the past, although it's changed less in the past decade than it has in any other decade I can recall. Yes, pushing of guys to the top at a very young age is not something unique to this generation. Kerry Von Erich, Juventud Guerrera and others I'm forgetting have had successful runs and made big money very early in their careers, and they've also worn out their welcome long before their bodies actually started breaking down. But while Orton has had his share of problems, I don't put him in the same category as those guys because he's not a burnout and he's not breaking down physically. Ideally, he still has a lot of years he can contribute at a high level, but he's so stale that it probably won't happen to the level it could. I wish they could condition their fanbase to accept younger wrestlers doing more jobs without getting typecast as people not worth caring about. The alternative is to "strike while the iron is hot", which I hate on a personal level as a fan because the quality of the wrestling isn't as good, even though I recognize on a business level that it usually works better because the wrestler being pushed is seen as fresh. You mentioned Orton's career trajectory following that of Akiyama. I'd rather he followed the career trajectory of Misawa.

He's in his early 30s and is on the downswing of his career, unfortunately. Two wellness violations and less of a push than in the past. He got too much too soon, but at the same time, WWE has trouble slowly pushing guys to the top since they get typecast on their way up the ladder as midcarders, so a slow push may have resulted in less stardom. But it doesn't seem like there was any thought into making sure Orton was a long-term star. He won the title in 2004 for the first time, which was far too soon. He should just now be entering his peak years, but I guess that's not how wrestling works anymore.

Really? We get upset about Kurt Angle and Ultimo getting in and "we aren't sure" about Super Dragon.....? If one wants to point to indy runs as being clear positives and even "the bulk" of a candidacy of a guy who will be pushed on pure work like Danielson I don't think it's out there. I agree that the indy boom was impressive, but it's not something I can see being argued as the primary support for an HoF candidacy. I shouldn't put words in Loss' mouth, but I don't think he was arguing all those guys might have a case as much as he was arguing that creating the situation where what they did was possible - which Low Ki was probably the main guy responsible for - might make you a case. I don't want to spend a lot of time arguing it, because I don't feel strongly about it, and no matter how I slice it, I can't see Ki as someone who should or will get into the HOF. But if Punk goes in, and Danielson goes in, and hypothetically a number of other indy guys manage to climb up the ranks and go in...I think the guy who kicked things off for them probably deserves as much consideration for the Hall as Sabu. Which is to say, a little. Not much, certainly not enough to merit induction, but I think it would be reasonable to mention him if - if - the indy boom proves to have wider reaching consequences than it currently does. This is correct, and absolutely what I meant. And like S.L.L., it's not a point I feel strongly enough to really have a debate over it. I'm just saying I would listen to someone making the point, and that it's not the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. No way are any of them except Punk and Bryan anything resembling HOF candidates, even if there is something impressive about what they did. We will start hearing a case for Gabe Sapolsky to go in at some point. The floodgates of potential HOF candidates opened when the bar was lowered for inductees. I only see that trend continuing.

I know he's had lots of good ones, but I haven't seen him in a really awesome match. I could have overlooked it. If I'm wrong, please feel free to make recommendations.

The indy boom happening is really impressive when you look back on it. Danielson, Ki, Joe, Punk, Homicide, Super Dragon, etc. were able to make names for themselves and be in demand enough to get pretty regular bookings, even with little or no television exposure. Whether that's a HOF case or not I'm not sure. But I would listen to someone willing to make the argument.

Personally, I always thought Magnum TA's star potential was overrated because of the accident. I do think he would have been a star, but probably someone at the same level of a Barry Windham or Ron Garvin - Flair's opponent du jour. Luger and Sting coming along probably would have eventually overshadowed him regardless, and I think at the most, JCP still saw Flair as the franchise player and Magnum would have just had a cup of coffee on top. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

Well, WCW didn't even count this in the total number of title reigns, which makes it even more pointless.

No.

I get why it came with a championship belt, but why a flag? Wrestling rings don't have flags.

I think Choshu has drawn more $1 million+ gates than anyone ever, or something like that. I remember hearing something to that effect once.

Both WWF booms were built on a risk of turning off longtime fans. In both cases, they did alienate the old fan base in favor of a new one. So it's a pretty consistent WWF business model. Cena has become a scapegoat for Attitude Era fans because of the era he represents. I do think WWE genuinely wants John Cena to be their biggest star, but I also think they're very lucky that people still have an emotional connection to him at all, positive or negative, considering the way he is portrayed. He has a superstar aura, which is what has carried him in spite of everything else.

Andre is definitely in the discussion. I look at him more as an attraction draw than a guy who could pop a house working on top in the same arena week after week, month after month, year after year. That's in no way a weakness. I just think it's an accurate description of his appeal. But still, you bring up a flaw in just looking at the number of 10,000+ houses. Hogan and Flair are going to have higher numbers than Andre simply because they headlined more shows. I do think at the end of the day that Flair meant more to his promotion than Andre did. But Andre should be on a list like this, as he was at worst one of the five biggest draws of the decade. Even though numbers don't have opinions, numbers do indeed have opinions.

Yeah, even with Flair's drawing power being hurt as the decade progressed by how he was portrayed, Flair was still the No. 2 draw in wrestling for the decade for sure. Dave has said Flair was the biggest drawing NWA champion in history from 1981-1984, and the worst drawing NWA champion ever from 1985-1989. I'm not sure if that's true or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloquialism This would also apply to "Southern tags" and "shoot style". And it's obvious he means U.S.

"Territory days ...", not necessarily territory matches.

His idea was more a subforum than a thread.

We didn't have footage of Percy Pringle officially turning unfortunately, but he's Borne's manager by this time and is suspended above the cage on a swing where he is suitably freaked out. Borne is sliced open on the cage and juices. Pretty violent with lots of brawling, but also kind of a clusterfuck because Percy is so much of a focus. He throws a chain to Borne, but Kerry catches and hits Borne instead to get the win. All that said, Pringle is great as a sniveling coward. Just when Kerry is about to get his hands on Pringle, he tosses Borne a loaded sock and Borne starts beating Kerry up with it while Percy holds the cage door shut. They finally open the door and Borne beats up referees and security guards trying to calm everything down. Kevin is finally down and gets in the cage and goes after Borne. Fun presentation and worth checking out for sure, but the match proper is missing something.

Lawler is still very much a heel in Texas. He insults Texas sports teams and calls Tessa a slut! Dundee punches him in the mouth over it! This isn't at the level of their best matches, but as a presentation, this is really good. Tatum is out to plead with Tessa to take him back. She won't have it and he tries to carry Tessa away from the ring, which distracted Dundee long enough to get rolled up for a pin. Lawler and Tatum work over Dundee and wow is that a lot of lime green. Tessa is screaming for them to stop, but they don't listen. Jeff Jarrett and Chris Adams finally make the save, with Jarrett getting in some good shots on Lawler. I'd like a full-length match with these two in 1990, but this is a really fun angle and post-match brawl.

I like this idea too. Let me give some thought to the best way to organize it.

This is sensational. I am blown away. Just as good as - possibly even better than - the Casas match in '92. While it's every bit as graceful as any wrestling you'll ever see, Dandy also shows a really aggressive mean streak in the application of the holds. Once again, you see the difference between grabbing a hold and applying a hold. He applies some submissions I would have not thought possible based on a description. Locking the legs in an Indian deathlock position while also putting Azteca in position for a backslide? Are you kidding? These two torture each other. Calling this a clinic seems like an understatement. Easily the match of the year, and possibly the match of the decade. Just an incredible display of guts and fire to go along with the usual top-notch matwork. Sublime. It would be really unfortunate if this wasn't seen and discussed by a lot more people. GOAT contender. Have I raved enough? I say these things not because I am trying to draw your attention to this so you'll check it out (although I do want you to watch it), but because they are true.

I know FLIK really likes this match, but I couldn't get into it. It was perfectly inoffensive, but nothing really stood out. The replay of the finish to mariachi music was the best part. There was some good wrestling, but I just thought this was solid.