cm funk

It's telling that those who make the arguments for Sting ALWAYS end up playing some variation of the "what if?" card. The problem is you can play that with every wrestler in history to one degree or another. I would take Sting over Edge as a candidate, but I don't think either should be in and I wouldn't take him over Edge because in some theoretical universe that doesn't exist he would have done better in Edge's spot. I played the "what if card" because it was right there for the taking. It doesn't change my opinion on whether Sting deserves to be in or not. I think he belongs in on merit, but it wouldn't be logical to discard existing or hypothetical realities The "what if card" is ALWAYS right there for the taking. For example I love Brian Pillman. He's not a very good candidate on merit, but what if he doesn't flip his jeep and destroy his ankle? Sure, but you don't have to play the what if card in Sting's case. That was my point. Pillman had HOF potential. Sting has HOF credentials, the what if stuff is icing on the cake

I never said Sting is a better candidate than JYD or Kerry or "guys like them", so can't help you there Sting is a better candidate than Luger, no doubt. But like I said before in this here very ring thread, I wouldn't have a problem with Luger going in. Windham? Eh. He's ok. I think he's overrated, personally.

It's telling that those who make the arguments for Sting ALWAYS end up playing some variation of the "what if?" card. The problem is you can play that with every wrestler in history to one degree or another. I would take Sting over Edge as a candidate, but I don't think either should be in and I wouldn't take him over Edge because in some theoretical universe that doesn't exist he would have done better in Edge's spot. I played the "what if card" because it was right there for the taking. It doesn't change my opinion on whether Sting deserves to be in or not. I think he belongs in on merit, but it wouldn't be logical to discard existing or hypothetical realities

Orton is formulaic against your cookie cutter WWE guys. When you put him in there with anyone who's creative and wants to work something, he's awesome. He's never been a carry guy, and he's not a guy who needs to be carried, but he needs to be engaged The best matches of Wade Barrett's career were with Randy Orton. Barrett's no great worker, but he's a smart guy who works well when given a reason to. Orton brought the best out of him.

I mean honestly, Dave is pimping Edge as a stronger candidate than Sting? Somebody tell me Sting wouldn't have drawn more money given the spot Edge had. Please. Dave's grasp on historical context is really slipping. Sting would run circles around Edge in terms of overness if they were contemporaries in WWE

I've made the case for them before on this board and DVDVR Sabu was the biggest thing going in the post-territory indy boom of the early-mid 90's. Sabu was on the card, people went to see it. He practically reinvented hardcore wrestling by hybriding it with high flying and high spots. Mileage varies on that take, he wasn't the first, but he popularized it. Without Sabu do we see table matches as a regular thing? TLC? Shit, Sabu had as much influence on the biz in the 90's as anybody, no argument. Also, he's an old school dude and a really good worker. Sting? I think you can go back a few pages and see my argument for him. He gets saddled with the "can't draw" label unfairly. WCW couldn't draw. They botched their potential to draw with him and Flair, then when he finally got the ball he totally delivered but the company and business as a whole were sinking fast. When he got the ball again he became the most over dude in the hottest year possibly ever for any company, at least in the cable TV era. Then WCW dropped the ball again. He's one of the biggest stars of the 90's/00's, and a damn good worker for most of his career. His TNA run has been icing on the cake in terms of performance, TNA is just hopeless when it comes to competing with WWE

I agree that there are no brainer candidates who can go in at any time, but setting the bar low enough to elect them when they're still very much active lowers the bar for all candidates You said Hogan got in before his nWo run. And he absolutely deserved to. He began wrestling in the mid 70's, and was the biggest wrestling star the world had ever seen in the 80's. Hogan is a bad example. Flair is a bad example. Savage is a bad example. Are we comparing any current wrestler to those 3? If someone has as strong a case as them while meeting the current criteria, by all means put them in. Shit, Cena is the closest thing to it, and he's totally deserving of the induction IMO. You can't change the past, but you can change the future. I just wish Dave would start to revise the criteria. The emphasis on historical candidates and foreign candidates has been a start, but they really seem to be running into a brick wall re: modern candidates v. 70s/80's guys who are "overlooked". They're reaching a point soon where they'll argue themselves into voting unworthy candidates in just for the sake of inducting people. Just my opinion, but I've advocated for years that both Sabu and Sting belong in, and really, they do, based on what currently gets people voted in. And if half the people I expect to see on the ballot soon get support, and Dick Murdoch and the Rock N Roll Express (who I don't even like much) and JIMMY HART can't get votes, well, that's just fucked up

I assume that's Flair's latest wife? I recognize the woman on the left as Rose's wife from an appearance he did on the Howard Stern show a few years ago

The match with Taker at WM21 was my favorite on the show. HBK/Angle, Rey/Eddie and MITB all got more praise, but watching it live that match was my favorite. The hardcore match with Foley at Backlash 04 was great I really liked the I Quit match with Cena, though I remember it being very polarizing, with people criticizing the pacing and Cena's overacting. I thought it worked. The two PPV matches with Christian were awesome I have no problem calling any of those matches great Also, I really liked his matches with Edge and RVD when he was IC champ in 04. Not a single one that stands out above the rest, but they were good series' of matches, the one's with Edge in particular Personally, I think Orton is a really good worker when he wants to be. Not a great worker, but certainly in the tier just below that for my tastes

There's nothing wrong with nobody getting in for several years. It's better than lowering the bar. But then Dave couldn't pimp his HOF issue and his bios that he never gets around to writing anymore.

Also think this has a LOT more to do with ppl just being pissed at who's getting in then it does with not liking the criteria because active guys have been going in since the HoF started & I don't recall this same amount of backlash over guys like Misawa, Kawada, Great Muta, Liger, Hashimoto, Savage, Hogan, Flair, etc... who were all still competing regularly at the time they were inducted and got put in as soon as they were elligable for it. Nah, not in my case anyway. I think those 3 all belong in. I just think they were on the ballot earlier than they should be. I can't speak to the Japanese guys because I only have a cursory knowledge of puro, I don't know what year/age any of them hit the ballot, if they got in on first vote etc, but I don't doubt any of their candidacies. The HOF and wrestling as a whole is a lot different than when Savage, Hogan and Flair were inducted. It needs to change with the times. Also, I like Lo Ki, but if he even gets on the ballot it will sum up what a joke this HOF is becoming.

He absolutely has. The 35/10 yrs in the biz or whatever it is needs to be changed. Wrestling is different than other HOFs because few stay retired, and many keep steadily working past their "peak" years. But a HOF which inducts active, in their relative prime workers is doing something wrong. Kurt Angle, HHH, Cena.....all inducted too early. Heck, I would have voted for Benoit and Jericho when they were on the ballot, but it was too early for them to be on in the first place The whole WON HOF process is screwed up at this point, which is partly why there is this push/debate about active workers getting in I think you could make a strong case for Daniel Bryan and Punk based on the strong presence on the indy scene, great work, and WWE success, if their careers continue on the same course, but it's way too early for that. They're in their mid-30's!! They could both have another 5-10 years to build their resumes. I personally think there's a major disconnect going on between what the WON HOF was meant to be and what wrestling has become, and Meltzer isn't really helping things

I'm trying to puzzle out the circumstances that one could seriously believe this to be true without just being a disenchanted fan/ex-fan who uses Cena as a scapegoat for their problems with the company these days. I'm coming up with these: 1. Post-Attitude Era WWF/E is the only wrestling you know, and you don't have any real point of reference for an actual protected main event star 2. You really believe that wins and losses alone determine how protected a wrestler is 3. You JUST DON'T CARE to the same extent as WWE Beyond that, I've got nothing. I'm not trying to be nasty here. Honestly, I'm not. But understand, I've seen greatness in professional wrestling. I'm a guy who has said over and over again that wrestling is an incredibly simplistic and incredibly limited form of entertainment, and yet, with the narrowest of margins to work in and the barest of elements to work with, it is capable of so much. So to see people looking at WWE's treatment of Cena and - whether they like him or not - honestly saying to themselves, "yeah, they're doing the best they can do with him"...it's honestly kind of disheartening. I don't even know how to respond to this. I tried to formulate something, but it didn't lead anywhere productive. You think Cena isn't protected because you don't like the way he's booked and you think WWE doesn't care about how they book him. Ok.

Also, Orton has done a lot more jobs to guys lower on the ladder than him. This past year or so he's been less pushed than ever

Cena losing frequently is a pretty new development, and it's mostly been against Punk Other than Punk, who they've invested heavily in, what heels have gotten over at Cena's expense? Miz beat him at WM, but that was entirely focused on The Rock. Rock beat him at WM, but it's The Rock. When he was programmed with Barrett and Nexus he never lost clean. I don't see the case for Cena not being protected. He never loses to anyone beneath him. They're very selective about who, when and how he loses.

Highlights from the issue regarding some points already discussed in this thread: He points out how prior to the 70s there were very few 10k arenas in North America or internationally. Here is what he had to say about several territories outside of the huge metro areas and the venues they ran during the 70s and into the 80s: Florida Georgia Memphis Carolinas Meltzer then goes on to state: and Meltzer, based on Farmer's research, ranks the top draws of all time based on a formula that gives points based on 1) top ten per year ranking (most 10k shows headlined in a year, 10 points for number 1, 9 points for number 2, etc, with a bonus point for drawing 20k, 30k, etc., 2) ten points for having a "dominant year" (defined by someone who drew double the number of big gates than the number 2 wrestler), and 3) a five point bonus for "breaking the record for most biggest gates drawn" (typical awkward Meltzer phrasing). Based on this, here is the top ten of all time: 1. Jim Londos 250 2. Bruno Sammartino 196 3. Lou Thesz 172 4. Bill Longson 159 5. Hulk Hogan 154 6. Strangler Lewis 149 7. Ric Flair 126 8. Buddy Rogers 122 (back-to-back Nature Boys) 9. Joe Stecher 99 10. Dick the Bruiser 81 Some notes regarding the ranking of wrestlers discussed in this thread/discussed often on this board: 11. The Sheik 80 13. Bob Backlund 73 14. Andre the Giant 73 15. HHH 72 26. Harley Race 43 29. Antonio Inoki 42 31. Randy Savage 40 47. Shawn Michaels 30 47. Dusty Rhodes 30 53. Bret Hart 28 55. Pedro Morales 27 56. Kane 26 56. Jerry Lawler 26 67. Kurt Angle 24 72. Ivan Koloff 23 77. Sgt. Slaughter 22 78. John Cena 21 (remember this list was done in 09, so Cena would be ranked higher today) 78. Ultimate Warrior 21 92. Nick Bockwinkel 17 100. Chris Jericho 14 100. Ken Patera 14 120. Randy Orton 11 124. Lex Luger 10 No Sting anywhere on the list is somewhat surprising. Anyway, I've been working on this for long enough. Maybe I'll add more later. Hopefully this has been food for thought. No Austin or Rock?

I don't see Otunga as being depushed, if anything he's in a plum spot. He's a JTTS, but he doesn't lose to anybody beneath him on TV, and generally is used to put over the big stars like Sheamus, Cena, Orton etc. They have him in a spot where he interacts with lots of the main players, and gets involved with the "power brokers" so to speak. He gets a decent amount of TV time in skits and angles, and heck, he's even the face of the TLC ads. He's entertaining as a character but not very good in the ring, so I feel like he's actually used pretty well considering his limitations Brodus is a gimmick with a short shelf life. He's opening match, entertain the kids at house shows fodder. There's nothing wrong with that spot. If at some point he improves in ring and they're more confident in his work, he'd get a nice boost from a heel turn. I think they may have wanted to give him a bigger push at one point, but his work was pretty sloppy

The random stuff Alvarez doesn't seem to understand always cracks me up He doesn't know what a ball hammer is? And what the connotation is?

would be a great gimmick

I enjoyed the angle and didn't find it offensive at all. Heyman faking a heart attack was done in the most over the top way possible. On the scale of tasteless wrestling angles this barely registered. And honestly, I would have been disappointed if Punk, the despicable heel who not long ago was involved in something of a feud with Lawler, didn't use it as fodder. And I'm sure Lawler felt the same way. It's not like they did a fake second heart attack with Lawler, or had Punk attack him with a heart punch, it was a heel heeling on Lawler, and Foley showing up to tell him to cut the crap

Or that it's impossible to escape from

I've never thought bringing up someone having a cup of coffee in the NFL diminished him. Just making it that far is a major athletic accomplishment. Is it bad when college football credentials are brought up for guys who never made it in pro-ball? Did it diminish The Rock to reference him winning an NCAA championship with Miami? To hype up Ron Simmons as an All-American, even though he was a bust as a pro? You're free to perceive it that way, but I don't think the audience at large looks at it like that

Garvin wrestled into his 40's, then retired. He did not look good at all in his later years. Houston is a guy who partied himself out of relevancy at a young age, and he was never a major star IMO. He had a little push in the NWA and WWF exposure, but he was never more than a midcarder. Manny had a lengthy run in Puerto Rico after qutting JCP, and bounced around the indy circuit for years, but he's a guy who burned a lot of bridges. His reputation in the industry was not great, and was considered a headcase. I'm not surprised he never ended up back in WCW or WWF. The Fantastics look and gimmick was too dated to work in a national promotion come the 90's IMO. They've had good careers working the indys, Japan and southern legends circuit. Basically there's reasons why all these people ended up where they did, and I don't think it's indicative of a larger freeze out of 80's NWA names

I don't find it that odd really. Vince had an influx of new talent culled from other territories to push, he was putting his stamp on the company and going national, and a lot of those guys who were depushed and jobbed out were old news. He had the luxury of picking and choosing from a lot of talent. Would you push 40+ Pedro, Putski, Patera etc. when you have Savage, Steamboat, Valentine, Santana etc.? It was the natural course of things. Morales was brought back as a spanish language commentator, and Putski was an early HOF entry and apparently wrestled on RAW in 97 teaming with Scott against Jerry & Brian Lawler (I don't remember that at all). JCP on the other hand, in losing so much talent (or access to potential talent) to Vince, were more dependent on established stars like Koloff, Wahoo, Jimmy Valiant etc, and were playing to a more regional base. Same thing for the AWA. As far as 80's NWA guys being relegated to the dustbin in the 90's, I don't think that's entirely true. Bobby Eaton had a job with WCW for a long time and was pushed as late as 95/96 as part of the Blue Bloods. Dusty Rhodes, Stan Lane, Michael Hayes and Terry Taylor retired for office jobs. Gordy's career halted due to the brain damage but still had brief runs in ECW and WWF. Kevin Sullivan continued working through the mid-90's and was a major player backstage for WCW for years. Nikita retired. Tully drugged himself out of the sport and then found god. Terry Funk continued to be relevant. Luger, Sting and the Steiners were still major players. The Road Warriors had pushes in both companies. Barry Windham's career was fucked by injuries, but he worked in both companies. Steamboat retired due to injury. RnR Express worked as underneath guys in both companies as well as SMW and lots of indy work, and were pretty dated by the mid 90's anyway. Rick Rude (more of a WWF guy I suppose) was forced to retire due to injury but was still used by the big 3 companies. How many big NWA names just fell off the map completely and are totally unaccounted for? What lesser guys still had what it took to contribute and be relevant in the big 2 that weren't used?

Vince did give second runs to a number of 80's stars in the 90's. Brought King Kong Bundy back for a run with Undertaker. Gave Nikolai Volkoff a TV role when he was far past the point of usefulness. Gave Backlund a good run as a heel. Repackaged Jacques Rougeau as The Mountie and then with the Quebeccers team. Repackaged Tito Santana as El Matador, though that wasn't really a success. Barry Windham was brought in a few times. Brought Albano back. Brought Honky Tonk Man back as a manager and commentator. Brought Boss Man back during the peak of the attitude era. Lots of guys were given second acts in WCW thanks to association with Hogan. Beefcake, Honky, Duggan, Earthquake, Boss Man, Orndorff etc. I tend to think of some of these 70's guys mentioned like Rocky Johnson, Patera, Putski and Muraco as being more broken down physically by the mid-late 80's, which I would speculate was due to heavy and less knowledgeable steroid use. Big John Studd would be another one. He kept using Snuka even when he was a shell of himself physically. Billy Graham was completely broken down, but Vince did try to give him another run. He pushed Bruno again when he was like 50. There were probably more and better options for guys to keep working in the late 80's, but I'm not sure how much a lot of those guys could work. Pedro was 45 when he left in 87, and I think he had a run in Puerto Rico and then retired. Putski was 40 in 1981, and I don't think he worked much if at all when his WWF career wound down. There were lots of indy shows in the northeast in the 90's where guys like Tito, Valentine, Bundy, Muraco, Snuka etc. would work. Global had lots of 80's journeyman tyes. ECW gave work to a lot of veterans who wouldn't/couldn't get used by the big 2, guys like Jack Victory and Tommy Rich. Lots of guys kept working out of the spotlight. mid-late 80's there were still a number of territories to go to work, even if they weren't doing great.