cm funk

Foley was in TNA when the anonymous GM stuff was happening

Adding to that, worse than the GM role by itself, it's the concepts of "heel GM used to create conflict with faces" and "authority figures struggle over power" that are the stalest and most overused IMO. Hogan in his role works because it's simple and he doesn't play favorites or try and screw people over when he books things. Teddy Long worked for the same reason, and he'd only screw with heels when they deserved it. Johnny Ace for example, while the character was entertaining, the booking with him and Punk/Cena was so boring and predictable.

I think the answer is simple: The WWE has never moved on from a lot of the concepts that worked during the attitude era. It's a common thought process in wrestling that when something works once that it can work again, and countless bookers have tried to recycle concepts, angles and characters over the years. They are still stuck in the Monday Night Wars mode of TV booking, especially on RAW. As for why TNA has relied so heavily on "the GM role" that's simple too: Vince Russo. Since Russo has been gone they've written out Eric Bischoff and put Hulk Hogan in a very simple straight forward role as the authority figure that, shockingly, actually works and gets characters and concepts over.

I believe the Maria firing was tied to her doing Celebrity Apprentice, which makes NO sense considering their ties to NBC and Trump, but that's what Meltzer was saying at the time

They made lots of *wink wink* jokes about Patterson's sexuality, it wasn't just during commentary. I don't think that was Ross going off script, and I have to think Patterson was ok with it.

Another one is Gail Kim who left to go back to TNA after WWE did absolutely nothing with her. I think her highest profile push was as Daniel Bryan's girlfriend.

Crush was over with kids. I was 11 when he was getting his push in 93 and I loved him, and all the kids I knew who liked wrestling loved him too. We all thought he was going to beat Yokozuna for the title, lol.

How does that rate compared to Cornette doing a shoot in a South Park shirt?

I found Dusty, Savage and Larry Z entertaining most of the time. Piper not so much.

I agree with that. I find most of those matches completely unwatchable on repeat, the appeal was in the car crash live experience. I think my favorite Hardyz/Dudleys/E&C match is the tables match from Royal Rumble 2000, that's one that I've watched several times and still enjoy. My favorite WWE ladder matches would be Eddie/Tajiri v. WGTT, Benoit v. Jericho and Michaels v. Jericho in some order Apparently Michaels had a ladder match with Goldust for the WWF title at a house show in Toronto in August 96. Has that ever surfaced on tape?

I haven't seen the SummerSlam ladder match in years. The last time I watched the WMX match it felt dated. Good work, good match, but it doesn't hold up as well as a match like Bret-Owen. I also think HIAC is kind of overrated and hasn't really stood the test of time. I prefer the match with Taker @ Ground Zero in September. I think I might like the casket match from the Rumble better too. Best HIAC IMO is HHH-Cactus Jack, or possibly Taker-Mankind for how batshit insane it was. My favorite post-comeback Michaels' matches are probably the Great American Bash-Unforgiven-No Mercy trio with Jericho

Yeah, they definitely wanted to give Studd a big babyface push that year. He was a shitty wrestler, but he was big, returning to the company and had an established name/aura from the rock n' wrestling years, it made sense to try and push him. This was also before the Rumble was "The Rumble". Hacksaw won the first one broadcast on USA, and it was basically just a nice highlight win for a mid-uppermidcarder, a way to put a guy over without putting a belt on him. That's what it was for Studd too. Also, heels didn't go over in main events at that time as Kramer noted. It never happened. IIRC the first heel to go over in a main event in the 80's was Andre's team at the 87 Survivor Series, then Undertaker at the 91 Survivor Series, shortly followed by Flair at the 92 Rumble.

94 was a weird year because he didn't wrestle a whole lot. Breaks before and after WM, and he was in a manager role for Diesel, host of the Heartbreak Hotel, and did some commentary. Then he mostly wrestled tags with Diesel. It was a great year for him character wise though, even when he wasn't wrestling he was one of the best characters on WWF tv. 95-96 is definitely his peak as a singles wrestler, but I thought he was good in 93 and really good in 97/98 when he was around. 92 he didn't light the world on fire with his work, but it was basically a transition/development year for the HBK character and for his singles work. He really hit his stride in 93.

I thought Orndorff was really good in his WCW run with Paul Roma, fun team that was underrated at the time, but 80's Orndorff in the WWF didn't really impress me one way or the other. I started watching a in like 86 and I was very young, and mostly saw the syndy or NBC shows and don't remember a whole lot beyond initial impressions about it. He was an unconvincing babyface after he re-turned as far as I could tell. He reminds me of Lex Luger in a lot of ways, great body, sort of awkward movements in the ring, and a face that was born to be booed. A born heel. The Hogan/Orndorff program was apparently modeled after Bruno/Larry Z, and Larry Z is another guy who after seeing him as a heel I can't believe he ever got over as a babyface. Him and Orndorff just come off as such dicks as heels

On a related point, when was the last time you saw a German suplex in WWE? It was a regular spot for half the roster for a while there. I know they limited the use of it due to neck injuries (though of course Benoit and Angle were still allowed to use them with flat/side bumps where they took most of the punishment).....but it seems like since Benoit offed himself that nobody uses the move anymore. The only guy I can recall using it as a spot since then was Shelton. Jericho and Bryan have probably used it a few times.....

I'm late to the Benoit spots/ROH discussion, but in general I think any time his signature spots are used it brings up bad thoughts in peoples minds I remember when HHH first worked the crossface into a match many months later, the crowd audibly popped louder than they had for anything in the match, and it kind of made me sick. Then Michaels started using it as a regular spot for a while and I never liked it (and he sucked at the trapping the hand aspect anyway, it looked super shitty most of the time). Even when I see Bobby Roode use it in 2012 it still doesn't feel right. I don't like seeing Bryan do the diving headbutt either. I have to think that multiple Benoit spots being used on a show the 5 year anniversary weekend were conscious decisions by the talent. I liked Benoit as much as anyone else and I still respect his work ethic, dedication and athleticism, but inviting allusions to him is just stupid. I have a pretty low opinion of ROH's fanbase anyway, so I'm not surprised some idiots marked out and chanted for Benoit.

I haven't read the thread and I'm kind of afraid to since I know most people here aren't big fans of his and I'm going to disagree with a lot of the opinions, but Michaels is easily in my top 100, definitely top 50, maybe top 30, maybe top 20 Granted I haven't watched nearly as much puro, lucha or southern territory stuff as a lot of the people who post here, but I've seen enough to form opinions on who and what is good, and Michaels from like 87-97 was really f'n good. I value character stuff and promos at more or less the same level as ringwork to a degree, and I think heel HBK in the 90's was one of the best characters ever. And, for my money, he's one of the most entertaining bumpers ever. Lots of people overanalyze selling IMO, and great selling of a limb or injury is great don't get me wrong, but to me the visceral reaction of seeing someone take the kind of bumps Michaels would take is just as important. I'm also of the school of thought that, "if you can get the crowd to react and you get things over, you're doing good work". Michaels is not technically perfect (and is actually really overrated as a technical worker, he was always best at fast paced or brawl style matches), but he almost always got the crowd into his matches somehow. regarding his comeback and second run with the company, I marked out for the SummerSlam match with Hunter big time because I had been a huge Michaels fan and never expected to see him wrestling again by that point, but on repeat it was pretty bad. I thought Michaels was hit and miss the first few years back, and I really, really, really hated his never-ending series of matches with HHH. mid 03-05 I got really bored of Michaels' act, but he definitely had his positive moments. One that sticks out in my mind is the Bischoff v. Austin Survivor Series match where I thought his character and booking and work were just perfect. I think he really started to turn around in my eyes with the DX comeback, the feud with Vince and the matches with Cena though. I'm not sure what it was, but something seemed to change in the way he worked and the way he characterized himself, and he started coming off as more authentic and realistic. Maybe that was when he finally started to own the grizzled veteran who's been around every block a hundred times kind of role that he settled into. The feud with Jericho was probably his all-around peak IMO, and obviously the matches with Undertaker were classics (and there was even some really great stuff between them before that with the two of them in the Rumble and the Michaels/Cena v. Taker/Batista tag). Heck, he even got me interested in one of the dumbest programs ever with JBL. Even if you don't like his ringwork due to whatever quirks he has, you have to admit the guy was a good worker who was able to get almost any crowd eating out of the palm of his hand. Overall I think the 02-10 run was a success, the good definitely outweighed the bad.

Yeah, Jack Tunney was real smart in aligning with McMahon when he did. I believe he was used as the main promoter of shows all throughout Canada in the 80's and got a cut of all the gates. Sure he got some nice paydays from The Big Event and WMIII He was perfect for "the WWF President" role too. I wish more modern promotions would look to Tunney or WCW Nick Bockwinkel for inspiration when it comes to writing in authority figures. The less they're used on-screen the better the angles they do work

Every wrestling forum I've posted at has had a sizable population of fans from the UK and Australia, so I have always assumed they have the "smartest" fans after the US and Canada. You see a few posters from other European countries (I know EL-P is from France and believe either here or DVDVR there is a german poster or two), but you see lots of people from the UK and Australia. I also know that Japan and Mexico have good sized smart communities, but due to the language barriers we don't really cross paths with them on our message boards

What were the reasons behind San Fran and LA going out of business in the early 80's? It's a little strange that two booming territories would decline that quickly and die before Vince's national expansion even began. Was it just a matter of not being able to replace aging talent like Blassie, Tolos and Ray Stevens and losing talent (Snuka, Rocky Johnson, Superstar Graham) to other promotions, or was there more to it than that? I'd think California would be a place guys would want to go to work. It is surprising that another promotion of good size hasn't sprung up in California at some point in the last 30 years. AAA did really well there for a spell, I guess XPW had a brief period of relevance, PWG has been around for a long time now but hasn't really grown, and then there's all those random lucha shows which a lot of seem to draw pretty well. I liked the concept of Lucha Libre USA and think that is the type of promotion that could succeed in Cali

Yeah, I either think Cena was legit out of it and probably thought his arm was more fucked up than it was, and in the moment playing to his women/children audience who were probably horrified by the beating he took, or Vince put him up to it for whatever reason made sense to Vince at the time and Cena the company man run with it. It's entirely possible that either is true Which is why the angle was cool and I thought Lesnar losing could be cool, but the follow up was awful I absolutely do not buy that it was Cena "going into business for himself" off script. Either he wasn't thinking clearly or he was told to do it because it was their idea of work/shoot booking Brock, which clearly was the wrong way to go. But if that was the reason, I'm not going to hold Cena at fault for it.

Piper and Lauper were fine in that segment, and it had a good payoff. Slater could have hit his marks better but he still came off as the annoying douche he's supposed to be. Layla really served no purpose being out there. She could have intro'd Cyndi and left the ring, but I guess they needed somebody in there to steer things (not that Layla actually did that). Wendi Richter should not have been there. Nobody in the audience seemed to have any clue who she was, she didn't do or say anything, she just stood there and distracted from the principals. And really weird when she buries WWE every chance she gets. But in all honesty, Cole was the worst thing about the segment. It wasn't really a trainwreck, but his over the top antics probably convinced some people it was and thus not worth watching

HHH won't work that kind of match, that's for sure. He's the guy who buried Jericho and RVD for working too stiff and I'm sure Goldberg and others too. His mentality is stiff = can't work, not stiff = heightened realism Just look at his brawl with Lesnar the night after Backlash. Lesnar was clearly taking something off his punches after weeks after some of the most realistic brawling we've seen in years with Cena. HHH the super-worker in his own mind is going to drag Lesnar down into a mediocre "WWE main event" style match, then blame Lesnar when that happens. The only hope is that maybe Lesnar just doesn't give a fuck and forces HHH into his match, but I think he'll just go along with what HHH does. Cena was obviously way into his stuff with Brock and wanted to make everything as good as it could be, everything HHH has done feels like he's phoning it in. And I do think HHH will lose, which a lot of people don't at this point, but it won't be remotely clean.

Wouldn't EMLL/CMLL be the hands down best answer?

How are we defining a "successful promotion"? Because nobody can convince me that ECW wasn't a successful promotion for a stretch. At their peak they were regularly drawing anywhere from 1200-3000+ to their shows, pretty damn good #'s for what was essentially a regional promotion with an underground national following in the 1990's. PPV shows would draw 4000-6000. And if we're separating promoting from booking, you could say Heyman was a successful booker who eventually overextended and burned out as a promoter. But to say ECW wasn't successful from say 94-99 is BS.