jdw

Because guys often went in to work TV tapings in one promotion while wrapping up their bookings in another territory. Ivan worked TV tappings in the WWF in January, February and March to build him up. He almost certainly gave his notice to GCW, and was booked a schedule that allowed it. The Omni in April was his blow off. He worked the April 19 & 20th WWF tapings, then appears to have gone around the horn with Backlund before sliding down the card. You see this with a number of people. Patera was working tapings in later 1979 before coming fully back to the WWF in 1980.

Harley claims he wasn't booked, and it was Ole lying. As far as Ted, he started in GCW around that point, and worked there a lot through October 1984. Seems like it was Ole's way of introducing Ted back to GCW.

Jerry: why do you keep misrepresenting your original Ivan Theory with stuff that came later? You originally offered Ivan as the best choice if Race wasn't available: Post 10: Where I talked about Brisco was 7 hours later: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...t&p=5546406 Which you later lifted to support your New Ivan Theory: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...t&p=5546418 Let's add: "Intentionally Misrepresenting What's Been Said In The Thread" I thought it was a nice way for him to say Lying and Ignorant, etc. * * * * * While we're at it because this was turning over in my head as another complete cockup on your part, let's go back to this: Not at all. I listed them as being unavailable or difficult to obtain in this scenario. Emphasis added. Ted was "available" to be NWA Champ at that time, and very easy to obtain. If asked, he would have done it. There's little doubt that Watts would have been happy as well. Hansen was available. If asked, he almost certainly would have done it. He wasn't working every All Japan series, and for the NWA Title, Baba would have been more than willing to cut back his schedule, and even booked the Tag League so that Hansen's matches could be back loaded (it started on 11/25/1983 and ran through 12/12/1983). For fuck's sake... Baba bought Hansen the AWA Title when the AWA was dying. He would have gotten a massive boner of Hansen had been offered the NWA Title and given a 160+ day run with it, including defenses in Japan. So... Bricso was in the territory. Ted, and Ted's promoter, would have taken it in a second. Baba's promoter would have taken it in a second, and if Stan was hesitant would have talked him into it. The only person who wasn't available in your original post? Bob Backlund vs Ivan Koloff, MSG, 1983 Yeah... "Woefully Ignorant"

Not at all. I listed them as being unavailable or difficult to obtain in this scenario. Wait... what the fuck? Brisco was in JCP at the time and on fucking STARCADE '83! Well, given the Brisco-JCP-Starcade thing, would you prefer that I call you "Woefully Ignorant" rather than a liar? And before you comeback to say that the thread debased people of the idea of Brisco at the time you posted that, that would be a lie as well: * Al suggested Brisco in Post 5 * your Ivan > Brisco comment was in Post 10 * Loss thought Brisco was a good choice in Post 12 * Kriz pointed out Brisco was too "JCP" in Post 16, but didn't totally debase it * Jack didn't come up again until Post 34, where I took a few pokes at the concept So when you posted about Brisco, he was still a viable candidate and one suggested by Al. You thought he was difficult to obtain or unavailable while working in JCP. Which was wrong.

A little carried away tonight aren't we? Can you actually read though? "I don't think Ivan is a great choice" That's not saying it's a terrible choice, Jerry. You were comparing it favorably to Hansen, DiBiase and Brisco. "that would have been a shockingly shit main event for the first Starrcade" And you're not saying it's a terrible scenario. You're offering it up as the #2 choice behind Race vs Flair. That's not the same thing as "I've consistently said it would have been terrible." You actually thought it was a good idea from the start, then changed your tune when people hammered you. Yes. Where did I talk about how many wrestling books you've read? I don't like Dino Bravo, so I'm not likely to do anything Dino Bravoish. I've been sober for 25 years. John

Awesome! Actually, look further down the poster. Angelo Mosca was available and in the territory. NWA Champ Mosca vs Flair would have rocked!

Mid Atlantic Gateway has clips. Don't know if they ever got to 1983 in all the key towns, nor if they listed attendance in clips into the 80s.

In hindsight and simply looking at it as a fan and what I would like to watch on tape, I would enjoy seeing Terry in that roll. It would be a ton of fun. I just have to acknowledge that there were several reasons why it might have been tough to put it together at the time. As a Fan: 1. Terry 2. Race 3. gets thin fast The reason it gets thin is that even as a fan, I have to be realistic about whether it would work. As a Promoter / Booker / NWA Board member 1. Race 2. Terry 3. gets thin As a booker/promoter, Race is safe to suggest. He'll draw for Starcade. It has a built in storyline of Flair not beating him for the title. One can come up with additional story to support it (as they did with the Bounty Hunters). The rest of the Board and NWA Promoters will probably go with Harley more than Terry. "Safe" which will deliver. But... but... but... I might feel out the rest of the Board on Terry. Would they be interested in him? Since his only main tie is to All Japan, and in those days gaijin didn't tend to work every series, he'd have a lot of "off time" after dropping the World Title. Promoters might like that a lot: Terry could do something dastardly in their territory as champ, screwing over the Local Hero. After Terry drops the title back to Flair, Local Promoters have two things to run: * Terry vs Local Hero where Local Hero gets revenge * another shot at Flair Terry could do some decent business in a number of territories after dropping the title. John

We would still have Washington and Abe. The GOP would demand Ronnie, and the Dems would agree thinking that it would mean the GOP would meet them halfway on a Dem getting on there as well (with the GOP ignoring that Abe was GOP so that makes it 2-0 at the moment). Of course the GOP wouldn't meet the Dems halfway on their choice (FDR) because he was a commie socialist who was soft on defense and big on spending. Yeah... no point in trying to talk them off that ledge. The Dems would feel sad, but try to get the GOP to meet them halfway again: Dems: "How about Truman? He blew shit up." GOP: "No. He was a liberal commie that McCarthy had to take care of." In the end, the Dems would roll over and let Ike go up there as a GOP President who wasn't W or Nixon. Washinton - Abe - RR - Ike And I'm only 10% joking... John

Wait... what the fuck? Here was your first post on Ivan in 1983, after first being told that Dusty in 1983 wouldn't work: Your second post on Ivan: I don't think Ivan is a great choice, I was just saying realistically he was RIGHT THERE and in wrestling sometimes it happens that they'll go with convenience rather than what is the best choice. You will likely not agree at all, but I think Ivan in 83 had a more realistic chance of happening than Patera in 81. If Ivan did get the title, I don't think it would have been in June but likely later. More of a 30-60-day sort of reign. Granted, that would have been a shockingly shit main event for the first Starrcade, but they could have built it up in various ways. NWA vs. old WWWF, USA vs. USSR etc. etc. Plus Nikita is around the corner. I'm not saying it's a great scenario, but if Race wasn't there I can see them looking at it as a possibility. You thought it was a good idea if Race wasn't there. The claim that you consistently said it would have been terrible is a canard. A cover up. A crock. Deceit. Dishonesty. A dodge. Double-talk. A fable. A fabrication. A falsehood. A fib. Pure fiction. A flip-flop. A fraud. Inaccurate. You're giving us the run around. It's jive. A misstatement. A total myth. Subterfuge. A tall tale. An untruth. A whopper. Telling a yarn. You're being a weasel. Yep... it's a lie. Did I miss any? We can't help it that something you originally thought was a good idea could not happen because you were wrong.

Why? Coming off Final Conflict, JCP came up with three storylines that would run through Starcade: * Flair drops the title and regains it at Starcade * Briscos go heel as new opponent for Steamboat & Youngblood * Valentine vs Piper blood feud over US title Since the NWA Champ travels outside the territory (and Flair to a degree before the Bounty Hunter Angle), it means you need anchor programs in the territory. That's what those Tag Title and US feuds were. Then, after the Bounty Hunger Angle, they were able to add Flair to the cards against the Bounty Hunters while Race continue to make the NWA Champ commitments outside of JCP. Which gave them three feuds to anchor their cards: * Flair drops the title and regains it at Starcade * Briscos go heel as new opponent for Steamboat & Youngblood * Valentine vs Piper blood feud over US title Setting aside other feuds they had going on in the territory over things like the MA Title, MA TT and TV Title along with various other things. Why in the hell would anyone want to take a good storyline like Briscos vs Steamer & Youngblood and fuck it up by pushing Steamer & Youngblood into an NWA Title feud where you already can come up with a dunker like Flair-Race? While hoping the mediocre Youngblood could pull off a heel turn to somehow main event Starcade agains Flair? Starcard '83 WORKED. Not just the main event (though it was the key), but the card as a whole. Why are we wasting time trying to rebook the thing. I get the concept of pondering who might have fit into Race's spot, similar to pondering who might have fit into Andre's spot at Mania III if his health went to shit. But mucking up a good feud like the Briscos turning? That's a waste.

This. It's not like Harley or Ric were great workers of holds. They just filled space. Patera worked longer hold segments with Backlund. He worked more brawling with Bruno. His match with Patterson was different from his match with Atlas. He adjusted to opponents, which no doubt was something he grasped from working in Mid Atlantic for two years before that.

Damnit! 50 inch cocks with wings... how in the hell did I not think of that one. Crap, Dylan... you're not suppose to beat me to the punch like that! And that is more elegantly put than mine.

I agree with this generally. I also hit on some of the issues with Funk earlier: All Japan commitments, "retirement", quite removed from being Champ, an how he was thought of by NWA Promoters relative to Race. We also haven't noted that there was impact on Race winning #7 to top Lou, which was a but of a Fuck You aimed at Lou, but also at the time historically significant. It did give Race a certain air. My earlier point was: Terry would have been a ton of fun. He could have run the Bounty Hunter storyline. Terry vs Flair in the cage probably would have been a hell of a lot better match. All those mic spots would have been awesome.

Alright... let's try to sift through this mess... Backlund had the belt for what, a day or two? It's not even close to the same thing. The point of Backlund winning the title was to instantly get the belt off the WWF's top face (Bret) and hand it a couple of days later to someone Vince wanted to be the new top face (Nash), without: * having to do Bret vs Nash at that point (save it to pop the Rumble) * having to job Bret to Nash (which Vince didn't do) * having the belt on Backlund for long (fewer fingers than are on a hand) That's not remotely the same thing as headlining Starcade with Flair-Ivan. Was that what I was trying to argue with that example? Let me write it down what I was saying in logical form so you can follow each step of the argument: Premise 1: Very strange things happen in wrestling [for example, Backlund in 94, for example, David Arquette, for example, Gene Okerlund had a match, for example ANY STRANGE THING THAT HAPPENED -- the example is illustraitive not necessary] Backlund bring a short bridge heel champion from one WWF Face Champion to another WWF Face Champion isn't a strange thing. You do understand the WWWF/WWF history that Vince grew up in and then took over, right? Vince saw this happen a lot. I don't think I need to point them out to you. They're not the same thing as Arquette or Okerlund. So premise 1 is a poor starting point. I'm not entirely sure what this premise has to do with your Ivan winning the NWA Title from Flair in 1983 to then defend the title against Flair at Starcade 1983. When you first went off on this Ivan Theory, you didn't present it as a Strange Thing but instead as a Good Alternative Plan To Race That Would Work! In other words, Ivan would go around the horn and draw as NWA Champ, and the fans would pack arenas around the JCP territory to watch Flair fight to get the title back from him. You weren't presenting "strange": your were presenting "good idea". What happened is that a number of us rather gently said: "That's a pretty batshit crazy idea." So you've now morphed it into a Strange Thing rather than a Good Alternative Plan To Race That Would Work! And you wonder why some of us have our heads spin in these discussions with you? "I think Stephanie could win the WWF title at the Rumble and defend the title against Shane and it would set an all-time PPV record!" "You're fucking crazy." "What are you talking about? Anything is possible in wrestling, so this really could set an all-time record. Give me a bloody break about Ivan." "No... seriously... you're totally fucking crazy. Gone 'round the bend. Funny farm. Men in white suits. Cuckoo for Cocoa Puff. Off your fucking meds." "Benoit killing Nancy, Daniel and himself is something very strange. I'm telling you... Hogan on Wednesday may shoot up a Taco Bell!" "Oh for fucks sake..." "What? Anything is possible in wrestling - strange things happen! Give me a bloody break about Hogan going postal." "No... if you keep this crazy talk up, the rest of us on this board are going to go postal." "Look... I wasn't really saying Hogan would shoot up a Taco Bell when I said Hogan would shoot up a Taco Bell. Don't misrepresent me!" "Oh dear god..." I'm sorry, but that's doesn't look like a concession at all, certainly not one tying Patera to Ivan. I'm not even sure you concede the Ivan in 1983 point since 53 minutes later you were still arguing with Dylan about it. Pick one of two reasons: * I was working on the response while you posted your "concession" * you didn't really conceed the point I'm mean for fuck's sake, you're making this post the next day where the top half if still defending the utter nonsense of the Ivan Theory that you're claiming you conceded yesterday. This is as internally consistent as arguing with Dave Scherer. I'm sorry... but I damn near spit out my Diet Mt Dew all over my monitor when reading that. Good lord... Since I have these matches, why not I'll give them a watch in the next couple of weeks in the Microscope. Anyone else unfamiliar with Patera from 1980 can join me if they wish. Under evaluation will not only be Patera as a worker in general, but also the claim made by Dylan and jdw in this thread that Patera was in fact an NWA-champ style worker in 1980. If he was, I'll be the first to say so. My scepticism stems from the fact that workers don't often make a wholesale change in their style in the space of a couple of years. I'm guessing that you just don't understand what NWA Champ-style means. You think it's how Ric Flair works, period. Some of us have talked about how Lou Thesz was working NWA Champ-style... and that doesn't mean he was working exactly like Ric Flair. I mean... for fuck's sake, this is insanity, man.

So when did Vince and Heyman become friends in the storyline? "I was hoping Trip was just going to leave!" -Cheetah

Of course. No Japanese wrestler was ever going to get a long run in the pre-1984 style territories / promotions with the NWA, AWA or WWF titles. Even the AWA Jumbo one was a bit flukey because Verne was between champs doing a transition. It's not like Baba was going to get one like that in 1977 from Verne.

That would be awesome. Jim Hellwig? John

Actually, Jumbo would eventually have had a chance if the world stayed as it did in the 70s and early 80s. The world started to shift, Baba bought the AWA Title for Jumbo instead, and who knows what would have happened if there was no WWF Expansion, and no NWA Title --> JCP House World Title. My guess is that Baba would have gotten Jumbo a title turn around or two or three. The NWA didn't seem to have a problem with the title changing hands in Japan.

That tends to explain why you see things differently than we do. :/ I also asked you this: Well? Also, are you arguing for him as NWA champ based on his WWF work? Would the NWA board have been taking notes on his performances in New York? (not a troll, serious question) He worked in an NWA territory for almost all of 1975, into early 1976. He worked in an NWA territory for almost all of 1978 and 1979. He worked in the capital of the NWA in 1980, holding the belt there. He also got world title shots in Toronto, a prime NWA city, in 1977, and worked there in 1978 and 1979 pretty regularly with the rest of the JCP crew. I don't think you understand that the core developmental period of Patera's career was spent in an NWA Territory, the same one that brought Flair to the forefront. His other plum to that point were the two runs in the WWF on top against the likes of Bruno and Backlund. Take notes? Who needs to take notes. They knew he was a star, and they knew he could work. Do you really think Flair made many trip to Texas or Portland or Alabama or Mid-South or Memphis before he got the belt?

My "joke" comment was about something else in the thread, not your post. My response to you was kind of wondering about Teddy. I've never seen much about him being viewed as a ludicrously person to be up on the rock. It's been almost 90 years since the project began, so over time he's less talked about now than even when I was a kid (70s/80s) in school. But never got a sense that his standing fell.

Who owned the USWA stuff? Lawler? Jarrett?

Of course. The show was on my mind because Yohe and I were talking about that lucha card last week.

BTW... these two threads might also be decently moves over to the 'Scope. Seem to fit in with the type of discussions in that forum.