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In lighter news... Sean "X-Pac" Waltman Tore Open His Anus On A Failed Bronco Buster Yikes... John

Wade Keller via Twitter: Mr. Schemer, still an asshole after all these years. John

One would hope Martin was comped for the years of suffering he undertook on behalf of the WON. John

Totally agree with Sek on this one. It was a long war that Dave fought from roughly David Von Erich's death on through the ones in the mid-00s. At a certain point, it gets tiring to fight a war for 20-25 years, see nothing change, and see guys that you liked on various levels (from workers in the ring to guys he felt were friendly when he talked with them or met them... to guys that he was truly friendly with) drop dead. :/ John

John

Isn't this where (i) Dave makes one of his snarky comments about the voters, (ii) I make a riff on the old 'tolerant of others opinions' comment, and (iii) Keith drags over the old quote?

I got to see Dolamn wrestle Maeda at the 4/2/95 Tokyo Dome.

I like Hero... but someone working on the script with him seems to have missed something. Given the early part, Regal does have a legacy: It's guys like Hero and Punk. At least according to Hero earlier. John

I like the format in "concept", a bit more than Survivors style elimination. It's just that AJPW in this era never really nailed one. So yeah... I've thought a lot over the years on how they could have nailed it. John

I actually think that a lot of fans in the pre-internet days who cared about wrestling history probably wanted to find a point when wrestling was "legit". I've run into a number of those folks in the earlier days of the net in places like WC, and you'd be nails on the chalkboard getting them to admit that pro wrestling probably was always a work/fake/ripped people off. There was a lot of "want to believe" in them, or similar to Dave the desire to have this thing of ours at some point "legit" to have been a credible "sport". I think your internet era hardcore fans are likely more jaded and always think it was a work. John

I suspect this works just fine if Taue wasn't hurt during the Carny. Block it out like this, putting Taue into Rusher's matches: Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue & Masanobu Fuchi & Yoshinari Ogawa vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi - Masanobu Fuchi & Yoshinari Ogawa over Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi (17:30) - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi over Masanobu Fuchi & Yoshinari Ogawa (10:11 / 27:41) - Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi over Jumbo Tsuruta & Masanobu Fuchi (17:22 / 45:03) - Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue over Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi (10:52 / 55:55) - Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada over Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue (10:55 / 66:50) I suspect that would work fairly well. Six of these guys, with two less men, went 50 with little issues. Another 17 minutes, two more men, broken up falls... that would be fairly easy for them. On suspects that even with Rucher in there, there were some injury issues given the booking. Misawa coming in so early rather than Kawada, it booked for Rusher to go twice as long as Kawada... that smacks of Kawada not being 100%. If everyone was healthy, it probably would have been booked closer to: 1. Masanobu Fuchi & Yoshinari Ogawa over Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi Kobashi & Kikuchi were the strong team, but heel initial win and having Kawada go longer than Taue is likely how they would have gone. 2. Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi over Masanobu Fuchi & Yoshinari Ogawa Something of a squash. That is one thing in the alternate of having Kobashi & Kikuchi win the first one: they would be underdogs to Taue & Fuchi, but more competative. 3. Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi over Akira Taue & Masanobu Fuchi But this is probably a better spot for Taue to come in: instant hate with Kawada after Kawada likely was the one kicking the shit out of Ogawa. Still, this would be an upset to see the heels win. Which of course brings in the Big Dawg: 4. Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue over Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi And the advantage swings to the heels, with Kawada & Kobashi the underdogs. This would be fun. Only one possible result so we get: 5. Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada over Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue My guess is that both of the last two matches would go longer than 11 minutes, so this match probably would have gone over 70:00. That's really the problem with this one: with no Taue, the building tension of being able to bring in the Kawada-Taue feud hald way through it, and then the Big Dawg to cap his side (rather than Rusher) and then the Big Tag Match in the closer spots... it's a natural build and tension is gone. So if you don't like the 1992 version of this match, blame Taue. I do generally agree that Baba would have been better in this than Rusher, but that leaves Baba & Jumbo vs Kawada & Kobashi and Baba & Jumbo vs Misawa & Kawada in the last two matches, and a little problem with the winner of the last match. In a sense, it would have to be Kawada going down: Misawa isn't going to beat Jumbo on such a lesser card, Baba isn't jobbing to either of them, and Kawada isn't beating Jumbo yet. Probably why Rusher was in there: he looks like the obvious loser, but there's still a possibility that Jumbo beats either Misawa or Kawada. Yeah... this whole concept books easier if Taue hadn't gotten hurt. John

This and the other WWF/SWS match this day were in Kobe, not the Tokyo Dome. The 3/30 was the Dome card. John

It's a different beast, though some of us suspect the Black Sox was one of the reasons wrestling so often was tagged as "exhibitions" in the 20s. Baseball already was a business largely to draw fans. Look at the teams of the 1919 Series: Redland Field had a 25,000 capacity, while Comiskey Park has a 32,000 capacity. The Reds look like they drew 8589 per date (62), while the White Sox drew 9361 per date (67). That's counting a doubleheader in those days as one ticket sold covering both games... which is how it was even when I was a kid. That's pretty decent business, especially considering it's all day baseball, so drawing anything on weekdays is decent. The Black Sox wasn't about the "booker" ripping off the gambling marks. It was about the gambler's ripping off the bookies, knowing who was going to win. In pro wrestling, the early point to make money beyond the minimal draw was to get the gamblers to lay a majority of the money in one direction and have the result go in the other direction. The bookies are in on the fix: they're taking the bets knowing they're not going to have to pay out. In turn, they cut the wrestlers in on that action. There was a ton of talk/heat after certain screw jobs where the hometown / local hero tanked, like Stecher jobbing to Caddock and Jenkins jobbing to Gotch in Cleveland. People lost their shirts backing the hero. Gotch-Jenkins was great that way: * fleece the CLE fans laying money on their local hero * fleece the NY fans laying money on the massively built up Gotch by booking the "upset" * fleece the NY fans again with Jenkins coming off getting destroyed by Hack and getting another "upset" against Gotch Great stuff.

Gotch was able to transition from "work the gambling marks out of their money" as a way of earning a living to "draw a monster gate" as a way to earn a living. The gate against Zbyszko in 1910 and the gate against Hack in 1911 likely dwarfed what he made running around in 1909 working more matches. It's not surprising how little he worked after the Hack match, picking a spot here and there to pull in some more cash. That's not to say "fleece the gambling marks" died after those two matches. It does feel like Stecher-Caddock I was a massive fleecing of Stecher's local fans. It feels like the Legendary Five Hour Stecher-Lewis Match was working to a draw and that "fans" were having none of it the longer it went, trying to get light onto the match. That feels like a draw worked against the majority of the gambling in some fashion. It doesn't seem like it was done to "protect" Lewis, since (i) from the reports he didn't work the match in a fashion to protect himself, and (ii) they already had a "protect Lewis" from their prior match that would have been just as easy to go with rather than a long draw that pissed everyone off. It sure as hell wasn't a SHOOT~! or Lewis not cooperating with Joe, since they continued to work with each other in the coming years. I suspect that Fleece The Gambling Marks was still around to a degree in the 10's, perhaps more so in some cities / areas than others. In the 20s... it doesn't seem to be around in NY or Chicago, but you never know in smaller towns / areas where someone might try to work the gimmick. Risky, though: folks who've been fleeced can end up shooting the con-men. John

1993 is a point where they were still buying them, since Jumbo tapping to the facelock was less than two years prior. But the lack of other big taps did start to kill them off. Kawada beat Kobashi later in the year with the stretch plum, even if That Idiot Kobashi wouldn't tap to it. On Hansen tapping... it wasn't like Jumbo tapped often in his career in the Post Tap Era. Because of the figure four / spinning toe hold and 2/3 fall matches, he did it plenty in the 70s and early 80s. But after a certain point, no one at the top level really was tapping. Jumbo's tap in 9/91 was a potential turning point: fans went batshit over it, and it was another high point in the Jumbo-Misawa feud. I thought that Hansen usually sold the facelock well up through this point... did a heck of a job with the sleeper later in the year with Kobashi. Some credibility in the hold left, and Hansen selling it... still felt like a good spot in 1993. John

You are right. Gordy & Doc gave Hansen the beat down at the taping right after Budokan. Yep. Agree on the performance, as it's likely the dope increased... which is saying something given his years of doping. I'm not sure that he wasn't pushed as strongly as in years past: 1990 * Monster push paired with Doc * double TC reigns * OD * wins Tag League His push was cooled after the OD. One could read the booking where only Gordy & Doc could have won the Tag League: Baba wanted Misawa, Kawada and Taue to wait to have the Tag Titles (which would go to the winning of the League). In turn, Hansen had the TC, was dropping it in January to Jumbo, and it played better for Hansen & Spivey to challenge and win the titles rather than defend. So even that might not have been a "push" at the end of the year. 1991 * doesn't work Carny * tag title dance with Hansen & Spivey * drop tag titles to Misawa & Kawada * wins Tag League * zero TC challenges of Jumbo Mixed. Confident enough in him to have his team get the titles back to job them to Misawa & Kawada, rather than have Hasen & Spivey do it. This also was clearly a Tag League where Jumbo & Taue could have won it, as well as Misawa & Kawada. Gordy & Doc winning it was a positive sign. 1992 * drops tag titles to Jumbo & Taue * 3rd in *block* in Carny behind Jumbo and Misawa (Hansen won other block) * zero TC challenges of Hansen or Misawa * didn't win Tag League Not a lot of good here. Spent most of the year chasing the Jumbo & Taue team, and in the end didn't get the belts back from them in the October challenge. 1993 * wins tag title from Misawa & Kawada * beat Misawa in Carny * 3rd overall in Carny (single block) * dropped tag titles to new Kawada & Taue team * TC shot * OD Positives here. Even losing the tag titles to Kawada & Taue was a positive: they put over one of the new teams. Tag League Final night appears to have been planned: Hansen & DiBiase vs Gordy & Williams Misawa & Kobashi vs Kawada & Taue On one level you could see Misawa & Kobashi getting their win back from June just as they did in real life. But one wonders if it might have been similar to 1994 where one team was in the clubhouse with the "lead", Misawa & Kobashi effectively out of it (3 points behind Gordy & Williams), while Kawada & Taue needed a win to take the league or a draw to force a playoff with Gordy & Williams... and Misawa & Kobashi beat them. Misawa & Kobashi (14) vs Williams & Ace (14) Kawada & Taue (15) vs Baba & Hansen (13) With this first: Misawa & Kobashi (16) over Williams & Ace (14) Meaning Baba & Hansen were out, other than as a spoiler... Baba & Hansen (15) over Kawada & Taue (15) Which is what they did. Might have done the same thing a year earlier, with Misawa & Kobashi "spoiling" Kawada & Taue which lets Gordy & Doc win from the clubhouse. Anyway... I'm pulling that out of my ass as a possibility, since it's not clear what they were thinking for December when Gordy OD'd. Just saying that his push in 1993 was better than 1992 where he really didn't get anything. 1991 was a tag push, respectable but lack anything of note on a singles front other than putting over Misawa at a Budokan. John

Not at all likely.

I wouldn't worry about that. There are massive chunks of the discussion here where anyone of us know very little, but there's someone else to pick things up. AWA? We have KHawk. Lawler? Lots of people like him, but there are guys like Bix and Phil who have a lot of it at the tip of mind. Joshi? We just had Lioness pop up, and we had two major joshi watchers pop in (Daniel and Jerome) even before our resident joshi obsessive (and I say that with kindness given the stuff I've been obsessive about) Flik showed up. Current stuff? I don't watch a boatload of it. But if something goofy happens in the WWE, or something getting a ton of run online, I know that there will likely be a discussion here that can get me up to speed. We're all out of date on various things in out life, including lots of pro wrestling. Don't worry about it. Pop in with what interests you. John

I remember getting a great laugh all those years ago out of coming across a newspaper report of the Evan "Strangler" Lewis vs Ernest Roeber title match or the Lewis-Burns match where it was along the lines: Wrestler X Wins Title People Don't Think It Was On The Level I mean... it was literally right there in the sub header of the article. I can't keep all of those early matches clearly in my mind other than the Gotch-Jenkins-Hack-Beell stuff of 1904-08, so Jonathan probably has a fresher mind on which of those 1890s matches was thought to be fixed at the time. The other thing about the Lewis-Roeber that I do remember is that it was Catch vs Greco, where they alternated falls under which each would be wrestled. Roeber was Greco, Lewis catch... so he was clear whoever had the 5th fall in their style would win. The guys of the era often fought a match one style, and another match in the other style, trading wins. It was a bit like Pancrase back in the day where they would fight Mo Smith in Kick Boxing rules, get their ass kicked, then beat Mo in Pancrase style. You pretty much knew what was going on. Anyway, there were reports all through the teens about it being fake. By the 20s in the post Black Sox era, you quickly saw "exhibition" slipped into pro wrestling terminology, and it was an nakedly open secret that it was fake. John

Totally agree on that. It was early-web era, so having a lot of info at hand wasn't really at hand. So even for a WON/Torch reader, if you're trying to look up who was in the 1988 WWF Title tourney at Mania, you either had to pull down the WON binder (if you are a binder guy like me) or... well there's that PWI Almanac that also gives you the Mania the year before and after... and Summer Slam... etc. The title histories probably have flaws we can point to now, but they were also very useful... especially to folks who didn't have Gary & Royal's title history book(s) or weren't online to check out Great Hisa's Dojo. Even the PWI-ish stuff was perfectly fine. We can joke about how the awards were / may have been cooked on some level, but they did give us an idea of what as "big" back in the 70s and 80s. John

1997 Almanac, page 133 for June 9, 1995: Hot damn! I must have slipped all sorts of stuff in. John

Hell... I look at *my own life* and wonder how the hell *I* got here. Pretty common for all sorts of things, including wrestling. John

The Who's The Boss stuff and especially the Kotter stuff is great too. Beauregarde "Beau" De LaBarre = Lance Von Erich = Awesome!

Is there a way to get a copy of that tremendous post, and perhaps a post or two that add on to it, copied out of the thread-o-death over into here? It was one hell of an exceptional post...

Sub Muraco in for Kamala. John