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So I'm looking back at this, and perhaps see one of the problems: Let's set aside the last snark for a moment, and focus in on the fact that clearly someone is posting about JCP without actually knowing much about JCP: Ric Flair Dusty Rhodes Nelson Royal Bobby Eaton Ivan Koloff Hawk Animal Nikita Koloff Arn Anderson Tully Blanchard Ricky Morton Robert Gibson Ronnie Garvin The Barbarian Sam Houston Chris Champion Sean Royal Barry Windham Stan Lane Lex Luger Wait... let's stop here. Stan Lane? He wasn't in JCP until 1987 when he joined the MX. Barry didn't come to JCP until later in the year. Lex didn't either. These are three guys in Florida, not JCP. Ray Candy Commando #2 What? The Warlord Rick Rude Manny Fernandez Kendall Windham Kevin Sullivan Kendall... Sully... more FL guys? Michael Hayes Um... Hayes as in the UWF. Big Bubba Rogers Dick Murdock Okay, I know Jerry is going to jump in here and say, "Ah hah! JCP has less than 30 guys!" Well, not so fast... Let's set aside some of the guys that I've mentioned in the thread (Wahoo, Jimmy Garvin, etc), and ponder some of the guys that Jerry has cited like Jimmy Valiant and Magnum. I think I mentioned early that it doesn't seem like you're reading what others post, and often don't even slow down to think about what you post. Anyway, let's see if we can build a September list by look at the results for WCW and the WWF that are available in September 1986: http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/jcp86.htm http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/86.htm I am going to ignore TV tapings due to the use of jobbers, and instead look at house shows. Jim Powers was a JTTS at the time, but he worked house shows that he was truly part of the "roster" rather than just brought in to do jobs on TV. Same goes for folks like Italian Stallion. The exceptions are clear jobbers: a Mulkey brother working one house show... he's still a jobber, he's off the list. In turn, the Thunderfoots are on the list, and the Conquistadors would be if they hadn't debuted in 1987: tag team JTTS. I'll count Mr. X. I will not count "visiting" stars such as the Jumping Bomb Angles since we all know they're on the AJW roster. Owen worked a handful of prelims during the year, including two in September. He wasn't on the roster. The WWF worked in Australia and used Gama Singh... and that's the only time he was used. Not on the list. There's also some oddballs like Alexis Smirnoff, who worked one house show, a couple earlier in the year, but those seem to be local ones in the sense of "we need someone" rather than him being on the roster. Frankie Laine was a local guy who worked a few Toronto cards, did some jobber roles on tv, not really on the roster. Pete Doherty worked a few Boston Garden and Providence cards, one in September, but that wasn't really on the regular roster. Roger Kirby was used as a sub for a few shows when Dory left the WWF, but again was just a jobber other than that. A couple of guys for each promotion like this. I will not count "out of promotion" cards that Graham lists, such as Battle of the Belts III which was in Florida and not a JCP card. Same goes if a WWF guy worked on an out of territory card that Graham lists (such as NJPW cards). Not included. Lastly, I'll pitch the women and the midgets. Both the WWF and JCP has a limited amount of women, with JCP at the time trying to push Misty Blue while Moolah still worked as champ. Midgets... eh. I'll cop right off the bat that it's 100% certain that the WWF will have a larger roster. We all agree on that. I just would prefer that the arguments are fact based, and reviewing the thread and finding something as obviously errant at that shouldn't be left in here. These aren't going to be in "ranked" order because I'm just adding names to the spreadsheet as a new one pops up, then sorting to be alpha. JCP (46) Animal Arn Anderson Barbarian Baron Von Raschke Big Bubba Rogers Bill Dundee Black Bart Bobby Eaton Bobby Jaggers Buddy Landell Dennis Condrey Denny Brown Dick Murdock Don Kernodle Dusty Rhodes Dutch Mantell George South Hawk Hector Guerrero Ivan Koloff Jimmy Garvin Jimmy Valiant Krusher Kruschev Magnum TA Manny Fernandez Nelson Royal Nikita Koloff Ole Anderson Ric Flair Rick Rude Ricky Morton Robert Gibson Rocky Kernodle Ronnie Garvin Sam Houston Shaska Whatley Steve Regal Teijo Khan The Italian Stallion The Warlord Thunderfoot #1 Thunderfoot #2 Tim Horner Todd Champion Tully Blanchard Wahoo McDaniel Managers who worked (3) JJ Dillon Paul Ellering Paul Jones WWF (68) Adrian Adonis Andre the Giant Barry O Big John Studd Billy Jack Haynes Bob Bradley Bob Orton Jr. Bret Hart Brian Blair Brutus Beefcake Cousin Luke Cpl. Kirchner Dan Spivey Davey Boy Smith Dick Slater Don Muraco Dory Funk Jr. Dynamite Kid George Steele George Wells Greg Valentine Harley Race Hercules Hillbilly Jim Hulk Hogan Iron Mike Sharpe Iron Sheik Jacques Rougeau Jake Roberts Jerry Allen Jim Brunzell Jim Neidhart Jim Powers Jimmy Jack Funk Jose Luis Rivera Junkyard Dog Kamala King Kong Bundy King Tonga / Haku Koko B. Ware Lanny Poffo Mike Rotundo Moondog Rex Moondog Spot Mr. X Nick Kiniski Nikolai Volkoff Paul Orndorff Paul Roma Pedro Morales Randy Savage Raymond Rougeau Rene Goulet Ricky Steamboat Roddy Piper Salvatore Bellomo SD Jones Sika Sivi Afi Steve Lombardi Steve Regal Super Machine Ted Arcidi Terry Gibbs Tiger Chung Lee Tito Santana Tonga Kid / Tama Tony Garea Managers who worked (2) Bobby Heenan Capt. Lou Albano Debuts at Tapings / No House Shows (3) Butch Reed (did not work house shows until November) Superstar Billy Graham (did not work house shows after hurting hip) The Honkytonk Man (did not work house shows until October) One thing that jumps out is that the WWF had a lot of JTTS on the roster. I count around 20, and that doesn't include Jimmy Jack Funk or Cousin Luke. There clearly are some on the JCP roster, but there just aren't as many of the likes of these guys working regularly: Barry O Bob Bradley George Wells Jerry Allen Jose Luis Rivera Mr. X Salvatore Bellomo Steve Lombardi Terry Gibbs JCP has their Rocky Kernodle, but Stallion was more succesful in 1986 than Roma and Power, Nelson Royal was similar to Garea and Goulet, the Thunderfoots were the Moondogs... for the most part, there are two in the WWF for every one in JCP. Anyway... John

It's not the average night. Which is why I used Los Angeles examples earlier. The reason I went to that card was because I was making the hypothetical of RW vs MX happening on that card: it would have been a match that the fans knew what was all about (i.e. Skywalkers the year before) rather than just being thrown out there. Instead, the card: (i) put the MX into a match with their biggest rivals ever (who they were having some feuding going on in 1987 as well... and the MX would shortly cost the R'n'R those WTT (ii) put the RW into a match with the Horsemen who they had been feuding with for more than a year... teaming with Dusty, who had been feuding with the Horsemen from the time the 4H were created Storyline. More so than the hypothetical I tossed out. Since I mentioned the card, I needed to go take a look at it. John

I watched a ton of Valentine for some project or other about five years back and for whatever this is worth, I don't think this was a feud in 88. The New Dream Team broke up after Survivor Series, which would be Thanksgiving 87. So my sense is that they already ran Dream Team break up/ Valentine v Beefcake, New Dream Team forms, that one feuds with Beefcake and then moves on to other feuds and then that one breaks up, Johnny V leaves the WWF and both Valentine and Bravo are with new managers. My sense is that by January of 88, Beefcake v Valentine is less a feud and more something like JYD v Valentine in late 86: two guys who know spots to work against each other. Feud started here: Blow off kind of here: Though they stayed going around the horn through Mania, with one match after (in Milan, taped). They were saving HTM-Brutus for Mania and post-Mania to go around the horn. But it was a feud, they started going around the horn in December, did the TV angle to air with the turn of the new year, and ran it through Mania. The comp to a Hogan Feud would be Kamala in late 1986 / early 1987: it was between the Orndorff feud and Andre match, with other stuff lined up for Hogan after Mania. It wasn't as big as Orndorff from a feud / storyline standpoint, but it did have a storyline that folks would know. Valentine-Beefcake was like that. Not a massive one, they had plans for Beefcake to go towards something bigger (IC Title), but this had a storyline created to fill space, and gave it a SNME setting to start and then play out on. John

I'm going to quote the first bit again in case anyone missed it. Looking at January 88 is, by my own argument, to look at a time when they were transitioning to a different way of booking (and there IS more meaning to the depth there than in 86). Am I going to be made to do the same thing in the cards leading up to and including Wrestlemania VI? Nothing changed in the booking in January 1988. It's the same as it was in 1987 and 1986. Things didn't change until points starting in 1990 on into 1992/93. The change came when they cut back the crews, and the talent, and over time they cut back even further while also cutting back the number of shows they ran in markets (they ran 5 MSG shows in 1992 and 6 in 1993). It was a gradual change, rather than suddenly waking up one day and seeing 6 of 8 matches at MSG having storylines. Your original (i) "storylines up and down the cards" does not mean the same thing as (ii) drawing feuds. Can you grasp how far you've shifted your claim between (i) and (ii) during the course? That's not even taking into considering that Drawing Feuds isn't even (ii) of your shape shifting? Did they run shows with those matches on top? Did fans pay and turn up to see those shows? Well? If it's "yes" then they are doing something right. This is staggering because you're basically admitting that it wasn't a storyline, yet you're claiming Dylan is wrong. Except... They weren't running Ted vs Jake on top regularly. Ted was in the feud with Hogan, which pulled in Bigelow and Andre, and occassionally Bundy and Duggan (who was often used in Hogan's spot on nights of the week when Hogan had the night off). Once that ran it's course, Ted feuded with Savage. For a fucking long time. Ted vs Jake was just thrown together. It would be like the MX facing the Roadies in late 1987 over the US Tag Titles, because the Roadies were over as faces and the MX were over as heels. It's a thrown together matches of a top face tag team against a top heel tag team, even if they were involved in other feuds. Except... Well... There's that little Night of the Skywalkers thingy at Starcade 1986 that every JCP fan would know. So if Roadies-MX hadn't been run in your town around the time of Starcarde, you getting it in say September 1987 at the first card in Detroit (to pull a hypothetical out of my ass) would be a big deal for you: it was a major feud in the past year that you haven't seen. Okay... what the fuck... let's look at the first Detroit card: JCP @ Detroit, MI - Joe Louis Arena - September 25, 1987 (8,000) Debut at the venue The Barbarian defeated Shane Douglas Tiger Conway Jr. defeated Gary Young Sting defeated Eddie Gilbert Tim Horner defeated Shaska Whatley NWA Western States Heritage Champion Barry Windham defeated Rick Steiner Nikita Koloff defeated Ivan Koloff NWA Super Bouts - 10/87: NWA Tag Team Champions Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson defeated NWA US Tag Team Champions Bobby Eaton & Stan Lane (w/ Jim Cornette) via disqualification at around the 16-minute mark when Eaton hit Gibson in the face with Cornette's tennis racquet; after the bout, Morton stole the racquet away and cleared the ring Michael Hayes defeated the Terminator UWF TV Champion Terry Taylor defeated Brad Armstrong UWF Heavyweight Champion Steve Williams defeated Big Bubba Dusty Rhodes & the Road Warriors defeated NWA US Champion Lex Luger, Arn Anderson, & Tully Blanchard in a steel cage match Worldwide - 9/26/87: Ron Garvin pinned NWA World Champion Ric Flair in a steel cage match to win the title with a sunset flip off the top Let's go through it in detail... JCP @ Detroit, MI - Joe Louis Arena - September 25, 1987 (8,000) Debut at the venue 1. The Barbarian defeated Shane Douglas 2. Tiger Conway Jr. defeated Gary Young These are throw aways prelim matches. 3. Sting defeated Eddie Gilbert Sting had been managed by Gilbert while partnering with Rick Steiner. He had a falling out with Gilbert and Steiner, and went face. He'd been feuding with Gilbert and Steiner for months. 4. Tim Horner defeated Shaska Whatley Horner & Brad Armstrong (the Lightening Express) were UWF Tag champs. I seem to recall them having a storyline with the Jive Tones (Shaska & Tiger Conway). 5. NWA Western States Heritage Champion Barry Windham defeated Rick Steiner Rick got a number of challenges against Barry. We got one out here in Los Angeles. I don't recall if they had a clear storyline... might have been a little more clear in UWF rather than JCP as they were still taping TV for both at this time. Another example of them facing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvXd2sy0B7c Anyway, I don't recall being surprised when they were too face each other in LA. 6. Nikita Koloff defeated Ivan Koloff Nikita against his uncle. Storyline. 7. NWA Super Bouts - 10/87: NWA Tag Team Champions Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson defeated NWA US Tag Team Champions Bobby Eaton & Stan Lane (w/ Jim Cornette) via disqualification at around the 16-minute mark when Eaton hit Gibson in the face with Cornette's tennis racquet; after the bout, Morton stole the racquet away and cleared the ring One of the most famous feuds of the era. 8. Michael Hayes defeated the Terminator Terminator was part of Skandor Akbar's Army, which was feuding heavily with the Freebirds at the time. Storyline. 9. UWF TV Champion Terry Taylor defeated Brad Armstrong Armstrong & Horner were the UWF Tag champs at the time. Taylor's major feud, Chris Adams, had skipped town earlier in September. I don't recall if Terry got a focused feud prior to the lead into Starcade (Taylor vs Nikita for the TV titles). He did continue to play a role in the Gilbert vs Sting feud. 10. UWF Heavyweight Champion Steve Williams defeated Big Bubba Doc won the title from Bubba. Storyline. 11. Dusty Rhodes & the Road Warriors defeated NWA US Champion Lex Luger, Arn Anderson, & Tully Blanchard in a steel cage match Dusty vs the Four Horsemen was one of the biggest, longest running feuds in JCP. The Warriors had been pairing with Dusty opposite the Horsemen for well over a year. Storyline. 12. Worldwide - 9/26/87: Ron Garvin pinned NWA World Champion Ric Flair in a steel cage match to win the title with a sunset flip off the top This was Ric's major feud at the time... and it's the title change. 12 matches. 7 matches had storylines, with it very likely that there was more to several of those UWF matches (Taylor-Armstrong, Barry-Steiner and Horner-Shaska) than I remember. John

I'm going to say this as nicely as I can in concurrence... It nakedly obvious from what he posted that what we were saying from the start is true, and it fucking boggles the mind how someone can't see that. Exactly. Hell, I'm not even arguing the second one in this thread: we covered that ground in Vince & Hogan vs The World, getting across what Hogan helped Vince do. This is what I think most of us are jaw dropped about from Jerry: Yep. That doesn't mean JCP actually drew more than the WWF, or there we're arguing it did. We're not. Just that an average JCP card didn't have less storyline/feud matches than the WWF... and often had more. It's just how Dusty booked, and also a function of how the WWF was running a billion shows and how the guys were slapped together to fill out cards. John

Okay... Jerry offered up examples later in the thread. Let's take a look at them... I see where we have a disconnect. Jerry: "WWF had storylines up and down their cards in 1986... I mean 1988." Others: "We don't think that's the case, relative to JCP. They had some storylines, but they also had a lot of throw away and thrown together matches. Similar to JCP." Jerry: "A-Ha! I'll prove they do! Here's a card where 3 of the 9 matches have storylines!" Others: "So... dude... don't you grasp that proves our point?" Looking closer: WWF @ Pontiac, MI - Silverdome - January 1, 1988 Dino Bravo defeated SD Jones Thrown together. Danny Davis defeated Sam Houston via count-out Jobber match. Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated the Conquistadors Thrown together meaningless match. WWF Women's Champion Sensational Sherri defeated Rockin Robin This had some storyline if anyone gave a shit about it. Trust me: they didn't. WWF Tag Team Champion Tito Santana defeated Bret Hart Tied into the Harts vs Strikeforce feud. Storyline. The One Man Gang defeated George Steele via disqualification Steele was a largely random wrestler at this point. Bam Bam Bigeow pinned King Kong Bundy Bigelow was tied into the Hogan vs Ted feud at the time. Bundy was sucked into it as well, while Bigelow-Bundy had a number of singles matches. Bit of a storyline here. Ted Dibiase pinned Jim Duggan There were a lot of Ted-Duggan matches in 1987-88, be we all know that Duggan was knee deep in the feud with Race at the time, while Ted was in the Hogan vs Ted & Andre feud. Randy Savage defeated WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man via disqualification This was a feud. So 4 out of 9 matches, which is being generous and adding the Bigelow-Bundy to the three you claimed. Jerry... are you serious in offering that up as a counter to what we're saying? WWF @ Indianapolis, IN - Market Square Arena - January 2, 1988 Lanny Poffo pinned Barry Horowitz at 12:45 Jobber match. B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell defeated the Conquistadors at 12:23 when Blair scored the pin with a roll up after a dropkick from Brunzell The Conquistadors were JTTS. This is a throw away. Jim Duggan fought Rick Rude to a 20-minute time-limit draw as Duggan has Rude covered Duggan feuding with Race. Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Rick Martel & Tito Santana via disqualification when Santana hit Bret with Jimmy Hart's megaphone Storyline to this one. WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan pinned the One Man Gang at 12:16 after a slam and the legdrop It's Hogan, there's a storyline, though it's a second tier Hogan feud to the Hogan-Ted one at the time. This is similar to what I talked about with Flair having primary feuds and secondary ones. The Jumping Bomb Angels defeated WWF Women's Champion Sensational Sherri & Rockin' Robin at 13:58 when Robin was pinned after a double clothesline Thrown together. Brutus Beefcake pinned Greg Valentine at 4:43 with a small package as Valentine attempted the figure-4 Feud of former partners. WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man defeated Randy Savage via disqualification at 6:16 after Savage rammed Honky and Jimmy Hart's heads together Feud. 4 of 8. That's a lot for a WWF card. WWF @ Worcester, MA - Centrum - January 2, 1988 Dino Bravo pinned SD Jones Throw away. Sam Houston defeated Danny Davis via disqualification Jobber match. Ken Patera & Billy Jack Haynes defeated Demolition via disqualification Feud. Don Muraco pinned Butch Reed Feud. The Islanders defeated Paul Roma & Jim Powers Thrown together as Roma & Powers were the face JJTS team. Ted Dibiase pinned Jake Roberts Thrown together. Hercules fought Koko B. Ware to a draw Thrown together match. Bam Bam Bigelow pinned King Kong Bundy Storyline-ish. 3 out of 8. Jerry... again, are you being serious here? JCP cards will have at least 3 matches on the card that have storyline. Usually more. Ah... I see what you're doing. You've shape shifting the argument into Push and being Over. I mean... for fuck's sake. No, it's clear that: * you were wrong on your original point * you were called on it with facts * you wouldn't cop to being wrong * you restated you're wrong position * you were called on it again with more facts * you've now pulled a new point out of your ass, pretending it's the one you started with This will likely end with: * folks not letting you pretend this was your original point * you getting all mad and wander away from the thread It will not end with: * you admitting that your original point was wrong * you thanking the posters of this thread for educating you about JCP and WWF cards in this period and that you learned something new in the thead John

As could we for JCP/WCW for a massive five year period of time like "1988-92". The specific example I gave was during a one month period of the 1986 Great American Bash for JCP where there were probably close to 20 different feuds / storylines going on those cards in a single month in JCP. I also said that we could probably do the same thing for the WWF in say 1988 (and 1986 for that matter) - pick a single month, look at all the cards (and eyeball the TV leading into the cards) and find 20 or so storylines. The contrast that some of us are trying to tell you is that when you look at specific cards, you'll also find the the WWF in that period wasn't loaded with storylines "up and down the cards". Those storylines are spread across *several* crews that were working different cards on a given night. Which meant that each cards ended up only having 2-5 storylines, while the rest of the cards were "throw aways" or "throw togethers" that were just filling out the card. I gave multiple examples of this, across several years. Again, you're not grasping what we wrote. In a battle of "five years worth of fueds" or storylines, we're going to end up with hundreds for each promotion. It becomes a meaningless sample because both have a large number. They also don't tie into "cards", which was your original point and our original argument back. That Hogan was feuding with Henning in 1990 or Sid in 1992 really isn't relevant to whether the WWF in 1988 had storylines up and down cards in 1988. In fact, it's only relevant when looking at the cards where those feuds took place, and then analyzing the rest of the card to see what was on them. So how much did you fuck up on this comment? #1 - I didn't pick "random" Los Angeles cards. The initial example I gave was JCP's first true expansion card in Los Angeles. Specifically a card where they came in and tried to make a mark. The example I followed with was the post Starcade 1986 card, which was their next card of note in the city and reflected what the promotion was doing coming off of Starcade. I selected Los Angeles because (i) I live in it and went to those cards and thus can comp them with what I was seeing out of the WWF at the time, and (ii) Los Angeles wasn't one of JCP's old core Mid Atlantic cities and instead an Expansion one, so it makes for a good comp of what they were doing opposite of WWF Expansion. On the second batch of cards, I selected Los Angeles 1988 JCP vs WWF to open the year. They each ran shows in the market in January and February and March. It's a good direct comp. I selected 1988 because you moved the year forward from 1985-86 to 1988 after several of us punted you around about 1986. You tossed out 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991... so I thought, fuck it... let's take a look at the first three months of the new year that you selected to be the new turning point in the WWF having storylines up and down the cards. Perhaps you'd rather compare WWF MSG vs JCP Charlotte for a similar period. I don't think we'd find a heck of a lot different between the two companies in Jan-Mar 1988. #2 - I never said that the only storyline on a WWF card was Hogan Go back and read what I wrote. I talked about each specific match on those three cards, whether they had a storyline, whether they didn't. I even took the time to research something like Jack-Rude to make sure I had the right starting point for the "storyline" as opposed to earlier matches where they were just thrown together. I've yet to see you go to the level of detail that we on the other side have to defend your point. You're just throwing shit at the wall and hoping it will stick. We keep coming in here, cleaning up the wall, pointing things out to you... only to have more shit thrown on the wall. Talk about dogmatic. Jerry: *you* are the one who is ignoring what others are saying in this thread. You have this vision of the WWF in the 80s and JCP in the 80s that is detached from reality. No one here would deny that the WWF had a shitload of storylines in the 80s. All one needs to do is look at Mania III to see a load of storylines climaxing on one massive cards. Your detachment is to think that all WWF cards are like that, when in reality large chunks of a WWF card in the 80s would be curtain jerkers, throw away matches, and matches just thrown together rather than ones tied to an existing storyline. Hell... here's as good of an example as I can give you. That famous Savage vs Jake match on SNME? It was a thrown together match. There really was no storyline behind it, they simply slapped the two heels opposite each other, promo'd it up on the show (good promos, mind you), and then worked a damn fine match. But if you look at Savage's feuds in the period (Tito, Animal, Steamboat), Jake wasn't one of them heading into the match... and they didn't really work a storyline between the two after the match other than random matches. Point: the WWF would even throw together stuff on their biggest TV show. Some of it worked out pretty damn well. Okay... so do I have to roll out MSG? WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - January 25, 1988 (19,750; sell out) Televised on the MSG Network - included Vince McMahon doing guest commentary, substituting for Gorilla Monsoon who had suffered a mild heart attack, alongside Bobby Heenan and Lord Alfred Hayes (McMahon's return to MSG commentary after an absense of 5 years); during the intermission, McMahon conducted several interviews at ringside with the Islanders & Bobby Heenan, Jim Duggan, Butch Reed & Slick: Prime Time Wrestling - 2/11/88: Scott Casey pinned Jose Estrada with a shoulder breaker at 10:06 Prime Time Wrestling - 3/14/88: Sam Houston pinned Danny Davis with a small package at 8:08 Butch Reed (w/ Slick) pinned the Junkyard Dog with a roll up and holding the tights for leverage at 5:26 after JYD chased Slick into the ring Prime Time Wrestling - 2/11/88: Omar Atlas pinned Dusty Wolfe at 7:29 with a reverse roll up The One Man Gang (w/ Slick) pinned Don Muraco (w/ Superstar Billy Graham) after Butch Reed interfered and hit Muraco with Slick's cane as the referee was busy breaking up a confrontation between Graham and Slick; after the bout, Muraco was thrown to the floor as Graham was triple teamed in the ring, with OMG hitting one splash and preparing to hit a second until Muraco made the save and cleared the ring WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan & Bam Bam Bigelow (w/ Oliver Humperdink) defeated Ted Dibiase & Virgil (w/ Andre the Giant) when Bigelow pinned Virgil with a splash at 9:26 after Hogan hit the legdrop; after the bout, Hogan and Bigelow cleared the ring before the champion taunted Andre with the world title belt; Andre had to be held back by Dibiase and Virgil during the confrontation (Hulkamania 3) Paul Roma & Jim Powers defeated Steve Lombardi & Barry Horowitz when Powers pinned Lombardi after a powerslam at 13:33; early in the bout, Heenan left the broadcast table, claiming King Harley Race wanted to speak with him in the dressing room Jim Duggan pinned King Harley Race (w/ Bobby Heenan) at 10:50 by reversing a crossbody off the top ('Hacksaw' Jim Duggan) Prime Time Wrestling - 2/19/88: Ron Bass pinned Hillbilly Jim at 5:32 with the Pedigree The Islanders defeated Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid via disqualification at 15:35 when the Bulldogs used a leash on their opponents that was originally brought to the ring by Bobby Heenan The first two matches are prelim throw aways. Reed-Dog wasn't a feud: Reed was feuding with Muraco, as seen in the next match. It was Reed's feud after the Reed-Superstar feud ate up most of the second half of Reed's 1987. In fact, Muraco "stepped in" for Graham in the feud. So Reed-Dog was a throw together. Atlas-Wolfe is a throw away. Muraco-OMG wasn't a storyline, other than Slick managing both OMG and Reed. The match was simply there for Reed to run in. The Hogan match is the Hogan match. Roma & Powers were facing jobbers: there was no storyline. Duggan-Race was a storyline. Bass vs Hillbilly is a random match. They had several, but have fun looking at Jim's matches in 1987 and 1988 to see what a high percentage of them are utterly random. Islanders vs Bulldogs had a storyline. So 3 matches had actually storylines, while a 4th had a tangental one. WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - February 22, 1988 (less than 10,000) Televised on the MSG Network - included Gorilla Monsoon & Lord Alfred Hayes on commentary; this was the first MSG card in which there were mats on the floor surrounding the ring: Prime Time Wrestling - 3/14/88: Jacques & Raymond Rougeau defeated King Harley Race & Iron Mike Sharpe (sub. for Hercules) at 9:26 when Raymond pinned Sharpe after the Rougeau Bomb from Jacques Prime Time Wrestling - 2/29/88: George Steele pinned Sika at 2:49 after Sika hit himself with a chair that bounced off the apron, moments after Steele threw three chairs into the ring Prime Time Wrestling - 2/29/88: Demolition Ax (w/ Mr. Fuji) pinned Ken Patera at 7:27 after Demolition Smash came ringside and distracted Patera as the full nelson was applied; after the bout, Patera was double teamed until the Junkyard Dog made the save Prime Time Wrestling - 2/29/88: The Junkyard Dog (sub. for Billy Jack Haynes) (w/ Ken Patera) pinned Demolition Smash (w/ Mr. Fuji & Demolition Ax) at 3:44 by hitting him with his steel chain after Patera tripped Smash and attacked Ax, distracting the referee Prime Time Wrestling - 3/7/88: Jake Roberts fought Dino Bravo (w/ Frenchy Martin) to a 20-minute draw at 19:23 Ted Dibiase (w/ Virgil) defeated Bam Bam Bigelow via count-out at 11:04 after sending Bigelow into the steel ring post as Bigelow was chasing Virgil on the floor Prime Time Wrestling - 3/7/88: Jim Duggan fought Ron Bass to a double count-out at 15:16 when Duggan chased Bass backstage Don Muraco & the Ultimate Warrior defeated Butch Reed (w/ Slick) & King Kong Bundy (sub. for the One Man Gang) when Warrior pinned Bundy with a crossbody at 14:48, with Bundy falling backwards over Muraco who was on all fours; during the match, Slick briefly joined the commentary team of Gorilla Monsoon and Lord Alfred Hayes at ringside Opener is a throw togerther. Animal was a throw away. Demolition did have a low level storyline and feud with Patera & Billy Jack. So the two Demo matches, with JYD subbing in, had storyline. Jake-Bravo is kind of strange because I see one reference around this time to a Canadian version of TV where Jake talked about Bravo's bench press record. But... the two didn't have other matches with each other prior to Jake-Rude starting up, and of course this matches wasn't in Canada. This seems much more like a thrown together match, prior to a potential feud and storyline that never took off. Instead, Jake went to Rude. Ted-Bigelow was a side plot of the Hogan vs Ted & Andre storyline, with Bigelow being Hogan's back up. Storyline. Bass-Duggan was a throw together. They had a match the night before, and several after, but there was no feud or storyline that I see. Bass was heading to a storyline with JYD. Muraco-Reed storyline in the tag. So again, there were three storylines on this card, with one of them split into two Demolition matches. WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - April 25, 1988 (17,000) Televised on the MSG Network - included Gorilla Monsoon & Lord Alfred Hayes on commentary; the card was to have included Ricky Steamboat vs. Greg Valentine but the match was cancelled due to Steamboat leaving the WWF: Prime Time Wrestling - 5/9/88: Brady Boone pinned Steve Lombardi with a German suplex at 14:57 Dino Bravo defeated Ken Patera via forfeit after Bravo attacked Patera during an arm-wrestling contest as Bravo was about to lose; as a result of the attack, Patera was unable to compete; Patera had already won the arm-wrestling contest once, but Bravo said Patera had cheated and so it was restarted Bret Hart fought Bad News Brown to a 20-minute time-limit draw The One Man Gang defeated Bam Bam Bigelow via disqualification at 9:12 after Bigelow rammed OMG's head into the top turnbuckle for longer than the referee's 5-count Ted Dibiase (w/ Virgil) defeated WWF World Champion Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) via count-out at the 12-minute mark after Virgil pushed the champion from the top rope to the floor; after the bout, Savage chased Dibiase and Virgil away with a chair Prime Time Wrestling - 5/2/88: Barry Horowitz pinned Jose Luis Rivera at 10:39 with a Russian leg sweep Prime Time Wrestling - 5/9/88: WWF Women's Champion Sensational Sherri pinned Desiree Peterson at 7:29 by reversing Peterson’s Irish whip and throwing her down by the hair (The Women of the WWF) The Ultimate Warrior pinned Hercules with the gorilla press slam at 12:48 (The Self Destruction of the Ultimate Warrior FYE version) WWF Tag Team Champions Demolition (w/ Mr. Fuji) defeated Rick Martel & Tito Santana at 7:22 when Smash pinned Santana after Fuji interfered and hit the challenger with his cane as Santana prepared to put Smash in the figure-4 Opener was a throw away. Bravo-Patera were working a storyline, essentially Patera's post-Demolition feud. Plenty of matches, some TV stufff. Bret-Bad News played off the finish of the Battle Royal at Mania. OMG and Bigelow were opposite each other a fair amount in the Muraco-Reed feud as the partners in tag matches. They also faced each other in the Mania title tourney. They faced each other into June. I don't recall the storyline too vividly, but clearly it was a feud and there was something there. Ted-Savage was a major feud. Barry-Rivera was a jobber matches. Sherri-Peterson was a throw away. Demo vs Strikeforce was coming off Mania, so there was storyline there. 5 matches had storylines. WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - May 27, 1988 (16,000) Televised on the MSG Network - included Roger Kent & Superstar Billy Graham on commentary: Prime Time Wrestling - 6/6/88: The Conquistador pinned SD Jones at 9:13 when the momentum of a flying crossbody put the Conquistador on top Greg Valentine defeated George Steele via disqualification when Steele brought the timekeeper's hammer into the ring Prime Time Wrestling - 6/6/88: Jacques & Raymond Rougeau defeated Jim Powers & Paul Roma at 14:26 when Jacques pinned Powers with a small package after Raymond reversed Powers' small package behind the referee's back Prime Time Wrestling - 6/20/88: Brutus Beefcake fought the One Man Gang to a double count-out at 10:20 when both men fell over the top to the floor as Beefcake was on Gang's back with the sleeper applied The Islanders & Bobby Heenan defeated Koko B. Ware, Davey Boy Smith, & the Dynamite Kid when Heenan pinned Koko after hitting him with brass knuckles Prime Time Wrestling - 6/6/88: Iron Mike Sharpe pinned Jerry Allen at 6:26 with an elbow drop WWF World Champion Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) defeated Ted Dibiase (w/ Virgil) via disqualification at 11:55 when Virgil interfered and prevented the pinfall after the challenger hit an unprotected turnbuckle head-first; after the match, Savage was double teamed and thrown to the floor but later cleared the ring with his title belt (Macho Madness) Prime Time Wrestling - 5/30/88: Jim Neidhart pinned Don Muraco (w/ Superstar Billy Graham) after reversing a roll up attempt by sitting on Muraco's chest; Lord Alfred Hayes did guest commentary for the match, subbing for Graham Dino Bravo pinned Ken Patera with the side suplex after Patera became distracted by Frenchy Martin on the ring apron (Best of the WWF Vol. 17) Prime Time Wrestling - 8/8/88: The Junkyard Dog pinned Ron Bass at 8:15 by reversing a powerslam attempt into a cover Opener was a jobber match. Second match... the two had a fair number of matches, coming off a Superstars match... kinda... sorta storyline, but not much there. Rougeaus vs Powers & Roma was thrown together, like pretty much everything Powers and Roma did that year. Beefcake vs OMG was a throw together: Brutus was feuding with HTM at the time. Islanders vs Bulldogs was a feud. Sharpe vs Allen was a jobber matches. Savage vs Ted was a feud. Muraco vs Neidhart was thrown together. Bravo-Patera was a feud. JYD vs Bass was a feud. 3 matches with storylines... 4 if your stretch it to Valentine-Steel. WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - June 25, 1988 (18,300) Televised on the MSG Network - included Roger Kent, Superstar Billy Graham, & Lord Alfred Hayes on commentary: Prime Time Wrestling - 6/27/88: The Big Bossman pinned Scott Casey at 7:45 with the sidewalk slam; after the bout, Bossman handcuffed Casey to the ropes and beat him with the nightstick Prime Time Wrestling - 6/27/88: Jacques & Raymond Rougeau defeated the Conquistadors at 11:35 when Raymond scored the pin following a double team move from the top Prime Time Wrestling - 7/11/88: Don Muraco defeated Danny Davis via disqualification when Greg Valentine interfered as Muraco had Davis up for the tombstone; after the bout, Valentine confronted Superstar Billy Graham at the announce table, pushed him, and kicked him in the leg Prime Time Wrestling - 7/25/88: Andre the Giant pinned Bam Bam Bigelow with an elbow drop at 9:09 after kicking Bigelow in the face as he charged the corner; prior to the match, Andre was escorted to the ring by Bobby Heenan; after the bout, Jim Duggan made the save with his 2x4 after Andre began choking Bigelow with the strap from his tights Prime Time Wrestling - 7/4/88: George Steele defeated Greg Valentine via count-out in a No DQ match at 6:35 after Steele chased Valentine around the ring after Valentine stole Steele's Mine doll Prime Time Wrestling - 6/27/88: Bad News Brown defeated Jim Neidhart via count-out at 16:23 after Neidhart sustained the Ghetto Blaster, fell to the floor, and could not return to the ring before the 10-count; after the bout, Neidhart sent Bad News out of the ring Prime Time Wrestling - 6/27/88: Jim Duggan pinned the One Man Gang at 9:49 with the running clothesline after the Gang missed a splash in the corner The Ultimate Warrior defeated Bobby Heenan via submission with a sleeper in a Weasel Suit match at 5:30; after the bout, Warrior stuffed the unconscious Heenan in the suit (The Greatest Wrestling Stars of the 80s) WWF World Champion Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) defeated Ted Dibiase (w/ Virgil) in a steel cage match at 12:20 by escaping over the cage after ramming the challenger's head into that of an interfering Virgil at the top of the cage; moments prior to the finish, a fan climbed onto the cage but was quickly pulled down (Macho Madness, Best of the WWF Vol. 18, WWF Wrestling's Greatest Steel Cage Matches Ever!, Macho Madness: The Ultimate Randy Savage Collection) The opener had no storyline, the second was a throw away, and the third only really had storyline when Valentine ran in since they had a feud just starting. Andre-Bigelow has storyline. Steele-Valentine rematch, kinda-storta extension of a storyline. News-Neidhart ties into Bret-News, and they had about a month's worth of matches. Another kinda-sorta. Duggan-OMG is random as Duggan was feuding with Andre at the time. Warrior-Heenan Weasel Suit had storyline. Ted-Savage had storyline. Three clear storylines, one side tangent (Anvil-News playing off Bret-News), and one hard to define. For a WWF card, this has more than most... as long as we stretch a bit. Do I need to keep going, or is half a year of MSG in 1988 enough to get across that it wasn't just the WWF in Los Angeles? No. We keep pointing out to you that You Are Wrong that the WWF had storylines all through their cards. They didn't. They had a lot of matches that was just shit thrown together. You've yet to take any card that we've listed, or offer up counter examples, that show that standard 8-10 match WWF cards in 1985-88 had 67% to 75% storylines. Or that they did it to a much greater degree than JCP. John

I doubt they've dried up forever, nor that it's likely they all pitched their collections. Most likely there was something that happened in Japan (such as a crack down) that spooked a lot of people. We saw a little of that in the US when the WWF did their first round of crack downs... and people just ducked for cover for a while. The collections are still there. They may be doing business underground, or they may just be laying low. The stuff will eventually pop up, and it's quite possible that when it does there will be a flood like we saw here (i.e. a move from Best of type comps to an insane flood of season sets and much bigger comps). John

A fair amount of Patera will probably come out with the 80s set when they get to the WWF. Beyond that, he might be someone to wait just a bit on because more might pop up. Such as the earlier run in the WWWF where limited numbers of the taped matches have come out. Also, there's some NJPW stuff that was in the "home taping era" and it right up against what Dan G has been able to locate: 01-09-81 Ken Patera d. Riki Choshu 01-16-81 Antonio Inoki & Riki Choshu d. Ken Patera & The Enforcer 01-23-81 Ken Patera d. Tatsumi Fujinami (taped 1-22) 01-30-81 Antonio Inoki & Seiji Sakaguchi & Riki Choshu d. Bad News Allen & Ken Patera & Tiger Jeet Singh 02-06-81 Tatsumi Fujinami & Seiji Sakaguchi vs. Ken Patera & Bobby Duncum 02-13-81 NWF Title: Antonio Inoki d. Ken Patera (taped 2-4) These weren't among the matches compiled by Dan on his Misc NJPW TV Matches from 1974-81 set, which put together what he had from that era in "original TV versions" that didn't air on Classics or get released on commercial tapes / dvds. That set had 77 of the 149 matches that aired on TV, and probably the majority of the remaining 72 (say 40-50) were released on Classics and/or commercial over the years. So those six matches with Patera are among the small number of matches for the year that aren't in circulation... but given how much Dan was original TV that Dan was able to collect for the rest of the year, they're likely out there. Anyway, there's right after Patera's 1980 run in the WWF when he was at his peak. Interesting to see, and singles matches mixed in their with Choshu and Fujinami along with a second match with Inoki (to go with the available one from the prior year). More AWA stuff might come out when/if the WWE launched their network, as well as more 70s WWWF/WWF stuff. I wonder how much if any Mid Atlantic stuff might be in the Library that would cover him. How much 1979 JCP has turned up on WWE media? John

My guess is that Trip will do it since he's the one who made the peace. Bruno also would trust Trip not to go off script. John

Kind of cool that they're getting both Bob and Bruno in there leading into the big show in the NY area. Need to give Trip some credit for making this happen. John

Well, that appears to not be the case when looking at *cards*. To the degree that I wonder if you even bother to check it before writing it. :/ Did the WWF have 10 to 15 to 20 "storylines" going on at one time? I suspect that if we chart out the entire year of 1988, we'll find points of overlap where they have quite a few going on. What people are trying to tell you is the JCP also did in 1986, 1987, 1988, etc. If you go back to my earlier long post breaking down JCP at the time of the 1986 Bash, you'll find that they had a *ton* going on at that time. Flair alone was juggling multiple challengers through those big cards. The R'nR were feuding with both the MX and the Andersons, while Ricky remained an occasional challenger to Flair off their feud in the Spring. The MX were feuding with both the R'nR and Dusty & Maggie, with Baby Doll thrown in. They even had a side issue with the Road Warriors for the NWA WTT. The Roadies had a feud with the Russians and the Horsemen, and that side one with the MX. Nikita had his feud with Maggie, but also was drawn into the long Roadies vs Russians feud. I'm willing to bet that if we just focus on that one series that lasted little over a month, we'd find close to 20 different storylines that would be known to all of the fans who might go to shows. A lot of those 20 would have been given significant build on TV... even something that people think is as silly as Boogie vs Paul Jones' Army. John

Let's check that one out with the 1988 card I listed: WWF @ Los Angeles, CA - Sports Arena - March 6, 1988 (4,000) Brady defeated Jack Armstrong Ricky Steamboat fought Rick Rude to a draw Ken Patera defeated Hercules via disqualification WWF Women's Champion Sensational Sherri defeated Rockin Robin Nikolai Volkoff & Boris Zhukov defeated Paul Roma & Jim Powers Bad News Brown defeated Scott Casey Koko B. Ware defeated Johnny V Hulk Hogan & Jim Duggan defeated Ted Dibiase & Virgil Basically a two match card, with one listed as second on the card. Even then... Rude wasn't close to as big of a star in the WWF as he would get. In turn, despite being less than a year removed from the IC Title, Steamer was a guy that the WWF really didn't know what to do with because his commitment to full time work was limited. This kind of was his door back in, but it went nowhere and he left. So the "all-star" part of that match was in the past for one of the workers and in the future for the other (since the Jake angle and feud is really what started Rude's rise in the WWF). I don't think we'll find a lot different in 1989 looking at Hogan Cards in Los Angeles. John

Alright... let's just wrap the Hogan Era by taking the first LA Sports Arena card of each year from 1989-92. I'll invited Jerry to explain: So... WWF @ Los Angeles, CA - Sports Arena - January 29, 1989 (8,500) Televised on Z Channel - featured Rod Trongard & Superstar Billy Graham on commentary: Prime Time Wrestling - 2/6/89: Sam Houston pinned Barry Horowitz with a bulldog at 18:15 Prime Time Wrestling - 2/6/89: Rick Rude pinned Brutus Beefcake at 8:16 by blocking a sunset flip into the ring and holding onto the top rope for leverage Prime Time Wrestling - 2/6/89: WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned King Haku with a suplex and splash at 7:15 (The Ultimate Warrior) Andre the Giant defeated Jake Roberts via disqualification at 7:31 when Roberts brought Damien into the ring WWF Tag Team Champions Demolition fought the Powers of Pain (w/ Mr. Fuji) to a double disqualification at 6:01 when referee Joey Marella caught Fuji in the ring trying to hit Smash with his cane, with Ax then using the cane as a weapon; after the bout, the champions cleared the challengers from the ring (WWF Strong Men) Prime Time Wrestling - 2/6/89: The Red Rooster defeated Danny Davis via submission at 6:47 with a hammerlock as Davis was on his back Greg Valentine pinned Jim Neidhart at 10:11 with a roll up Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard defeated Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty at 18:21 when Blanchard pinned Jannetty after Anderson swept Jannetty's leg out from the floor as he attempted a suplex and then held the boot down during the cover WWF @ Los Angeles, CA - Sports Arena - January 26, 1990 (12,000) Earthquake defeated the Red Rooster Koko B. Ware pinned Black Bart WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Dino Bravo Ron Garvin defeated the Brooklyn Brawler WWF Tag Team Champions Andre the Giant & Haku defeated Demolition via count-out Roddy Piper defeated Rick Rude in a steel cage match We'll need to skip the first Sports Arena card of 1991 since it was Mania, so chose your card among these two in the area: WWF @ Long Beach, CA - January 5, 1991 (9,600) The Barbarian pinned Jim Brunzell The Big Bossman pinned Bobby Heenan Sgt. Slaughter pinned Jim Duggan Demolition defeated the Bushwhackers Saba Simba pinned Buddy Rose Roddy Piper defeated WWF IC Champion Mr. Perfect via count-out WWF World Champion the Ultimate Warrior defeated Randy Savage Or: WWF @ Los Angeles, CA - Sports Arena - May 4, 1991 (15,000) Jim Brunzell vs. IRS Tugboat vs. the Warlord Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty vs. the Orient Express The Big Bossman vs. the Mountie The Legion of Doom vs. WWF Tag Team Champions the Nasty Boys Roddy Piper vs. Ted Dibiase The Ultimate Warrior vs. the Undertaker I actually think we're getting far close in those what I mentioned earlier: the WWF tightened up their cards after cutting back the number of crews and cards they ran, which was in late 1990 (timed around the Harts vs Rockers "title change"). 1992: WWF @ Los Angeles, CA - Sports Arena - February 8, 1992 (5,600) The Warlord pinned Chris Walker Shawn Michaels pinned Jimmy Snuka The Big Bossman & Tito Santana defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Ted Dibiase & IRS; Dibiase & IRS were not recognized as champions for the match The Mountie pinned Jim Brunzell Repo Man pinned Virgil The Legion of Doom defeated the Natural Disasters; the LOD came out with the WWF Tag Team Titles and were recognized as champions despite losing the titles the previous night WWF World Champion Ric Flair defeated WWF IC Champion Roddy Piper via disqualification Yep... I don't think WWF cards in the Expansion Era of 1980s went down like you seem to be thinking they did. The change game later when they actually reduced the size of the roster, the number of cards they ran, and the number of times they hit cities. Each of these things happened gradually over time, starting in roughly 1990. John

You keep pushing the line backwards as people drop cards on you. One of the more recent lines in the sand was 1988, so let's look at three cards of each promotion in Los Angeles in early 1988. We can't go beyond this in a direct comp in LA as JCP didn't come back until the Bash card. WWF @ Los Angeles, CA - Sports Arena - January 15, 1988 (10,000) Dino Bravo pinned Jerry Allen Koko B. Ware pinned Iron Mike Sharpe Jake Roberts defeated Rick Rude via count-out Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated the Conquistadors Greg Valentine pinned Brutus Beefcake WWF Women's Champion Sensational Sherri pinned Velvet McIntyre Ron Bass pinned Brady Boone WWF Tag Team Champions Rick Martel & Tito Santana defeated Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man defeated Randy Savage in a steel cage match The first two matches were throw aways. In early 1988, Rude was done with his long Orndorff feud and waiting for the next one to load. Jake was bouncing around facing various people like Ted and OMG and Herc. The Rude-Jake-Wife angle wasn't shot until March 19, not airing until 4/23/88. The two did face each other a fair amount prior to the Big Angle, but it comes across as more "thrown together" and "let's see if this works" than a focused feud yet. The Bulldogs match is a throw away. No one cared about the women's match. The Bass match is a throw away. So you effectively have a two match card: the tag title and the IC title. JCP @ Inglewood, CA - Great Western Forum - January 21, 1988 (3,000) Kevin Sullivan defeated the Hurricane Kid NWA Western States Heritage Champion Barry Windham defeated Samoan Tau NWA TV Champion Nikita Koloff fought NWA Tag Team Champion Tully Blanchard to a draw The Road Warriors fought the Powers of Pain to a no contest Lex Luger defeated NWA Tag Team Champion Arn Anderson NWA US Champion Dusty Rhodes defeated Larry Zbyzsko via disqualification NWA World Champion Ric Flair defeated Michael Hayes Sullivan's match is a throw away. Barry's match is a throw away. Nikita vs Tully is a bit "throw together", but Nikita had won the TV Title from Tully back in August, and had a track record against Tully as part of the Flair-Nikita + Dusty-Tully feuds in late 1986 / early 1987 where they tag together a lot. So it would have some back story to it. LOD vs Powers was a big feud with the weights angle around here. Dusty vs Larry was Dusty's storyline post-Luger, with Larry have "pictures" of Dusty doing... something. Flair-Hayes was one of Flair's post Starcade/Garvin feuds prior to Sting becoming the focused one. You'll find segements on the TV shows of him talking up Hayes, and not just localized promos. Was it one of his big ones? No. It was more like the Brad Armstrong the year before that was run after Flair-Barry ran it's course and the next feud (Flair vs Jimmy Garvin leading into Flair vs Ronnie) got fired up. Flair-Brad was talked about on TV with Brad built up, so it was a known storyline... just not one that got invested with a massive angle. Flair-Garvin in 1986, Flair-Brad in 1987, Flair-Hayes in late 1987 / early 1988... Flair tended to have a number of second level feuds that could be used between major feuds or where a major feud ran it's course in a town and they hadn't yet rolled out the angle for the next major feud. Anyway, folks going to that card know what Flair-Hayes was about. It's worth noting that JCP was running a split crew that day, so we didn't get folks like the MX or Dusty or the R'nR. This is similar to how the WWF ran. JCP @ Inglewood, CA - Great Western Forum - February 17, 1988 Ricky Santana defeated the Hurricane Kid Dick Murdoch defeated Billy Anderson NWA Tag Team Champion Arn Anderson defeated Tim Patterson NWA US Tag Team Champions Bobby Eaton & Stan Lane fought Sting & Jimmy Garvin to a 30-minute time-limit draw Road Warrior Hawk & Paul Ellering defeated the Powers of Pain in a ladder match NWA US Champion Dusty Rhodes defeated NWA Western States Heritage Champion Larry Zbyzsko Lex Luger & Barry Windham defeated NWA World Champion Ric Flair & NWA Tag Team Champion Tully Blanchard via disqualification The first three matches were throw aways. The US Tag Title match is thrown together, but... MX vs Jimmy Garvin had history going back to early 1987. LOD vs Powers of Pain was a big feud for the Warriors. Animal was out due to the weights angle. Dusty still feuding with Larry. The main event was all about the Horsemen turning on Lex, which was the big angle to close 1987 and lead into 1988. They wanted to slow burn getting to Lex-Flair, saving it for the Bash and the post-Bash, so if you check the cards you'll see them slide Lex opposite other Horsemen, while Sting was pushed opposite Flair. The other aspect of this was that Barry was the first face to join hands with former heel Lex, and they aimed at the WTT... and there's Tully in the match. There's layers to the storyline here. Anyway, basically the top three matches have focused storyline, while the USTT match has "going to the well" storyline. WWF @ Los Angeles, CA - Sports Arena - March 6, 1988 (4,000) Brady defeated Jack Armstrong Ricky Steamboat fought Rick Rude to a draw Ken Patera defeated Hercules via disqualification WWF Women's Champion Sensational Sherri defeated Rockin Robin Nikolai Volkoff & Boris Zhukov defeated Paul Roma & Jim Powers Bad News Brown defeated Scott Casey Koko B. Ware defeated Johnny V Hulk Hogan & Jim Duggan defeated Ted Dibiase & Virgil Curtain jerker to open. Rude and Steamer had something going on off the Rumble and a syndication match. The Patera match was slapped together: had was coming off the Demolition feud (with Billy Jack), and this was just before the Bravo one started. Women? I guess people know what this was since it was the only woman's match in the WWF at the time. Roma & Powers against the Russians was a throw away like a lot of Roma & Powers matches at this point. The faced the Russians a number of times in here, but also faced a lot of other teams. Casey was a JTTS, and was just dialed up here for Allen. Koko vs Johnny V was a throw away. Hogan vs Ted was the main event storyline. This is a very thin card in terms of storyline. Frankly light in terms of star power as well beyond the main event. JCP @ Inglewood, CA - Great Western Forum - March 17, 1988 Mando Guerrero fought Tony Rocco to a 10-minute time-limit draw Rick Steiner pinned Pistol Pete Larry Zbyzsko pinned Ron Garvin NWA TV Champion Mike Rotundo fought Jimmy Garvin to a 30-minute time-limit draw Lex Luger & Barry Windham defeated NWA Tag Team Champions Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard via disqualification The Road Warriors defeated the Powers of Pain in a lumberjack match NWA World Champion Ric Flair defeated Sting First two matches are curtain jerkers. Larry-Garvin is just two people that Dusty hasn't figure out what to do next with. Rotundo vs Garvin was part of the heated up Garvin vs Sullivan storyline. Here's Lex opposite of the Horsemen, again with Barry at his side, and the two zeroing in on the WTT they would win this month. LOD vs POP again. And the Flair vs Sting feud heating up. In a sense, the top three matches are previews for the coming Clash, while Rotundo-Garvin plays into the Gravin-Sully match at the Clash. So... There really isn't a difference in "depth" on the cards, even with JCP starting to run more splitcards in Los Angeles rather than the loaded up ones we got in say August 1986 or hot off Starcade 1986. The JCP cards tended to have more focus on current storylines, even with clear prelim matches and several slapped together one. I'm surprised by the lack of focus on the WWF cards in Los Angeles... I don't recall them being this thin in terms of storyline. I suspect that once we get to the WWF cutting back to generally just two crews that things will tighten up, but that doesn't happen until 1990.

If you think it's bad now, wait until you have to watch hours of Wil E. Russoyote, Super Booker stuff later in the year. There is no Austin and Rock and Vince to save you. John

I think the opposite: he gave his notice at the taping, they wanted him to do jobs on the way out (i.e. taped at that Superstars taping and possibly the next night at the Challenge taping), which he refused and they simply sent him home. John

Interesting year for Steamer. Comes back to the WWF. Gets the silly Dragon gimmick. Mid-card feuds, which he wins literally every one of them (I'd have to look close to see if he did even a single job). Not much of a push... just rolled out in the mid-cards. Not terribly happy. Gets the offer from WCW. Gives his notice. Refuses to job on the way out. Shows up in WCW in one of the most memorable "surprises" ever (which is the second time he's done that), and gets the tag belts. Then he has a pretty decent run in WCW the rest of his career, treated fairly well. You do wonder what would have happened without the injury and how he would have done first in the Hogan Era, then the Early Nitro Era, then the nWo Era. He was still a fine worker at the time of the injury. But the insanity of the nWo Era... wonder how long he would have lasted before getting annoyed. John

Shorter and more to the point than me. Double made him: one part in coming back form the crash, and two because is cleared JV out of the top heel spot. JV wasn't young at the time, be he also was just into the US Title run and it didn't look like they had another heel in mind to step into the role. Instead, it looked like Flair was primed to feud with Wahoo over the MA Title (which he lifted from Wahoo right before the crash). It's hard to tell. Flair-Steamer may have been since it went longer and they kept coming back to it.

I don't remember the build up of the Long Beach one, though we knew it was a TV taping. I don't know if it was told on the Event Center... maybe Hoback, Yohe and I know it was a TV taping because we all subbed to the WON (though I don't know how often Dave would be explicit on where the next round of tapings would be). I'm pretty sure Bret-Bigelow didn't go on last. It was a long taping, not helped by having to retape Yoko butt dropping on a guy a second time... after botching the first one and hurting the jobber, who was then forced to go back in and take a second one. Kayfabe totally broken infront of the fans. John

I think doing a Phd study on the Wachowski Brothers is about as useful as eating the thesis produced by such a student. I don't think a Phd on pro wrestling would product anything useful. If it were by a non-fan, the student wouldn't have enough insight to understand a broader picture of pro wrestling. If it were by a Fan, he's be bringing his own biases to the table and largely be in seeing the tree rather than the forest. It simply isn't a genre of entertainment that lends itself to the process as either direction comes at it with fucked up perspectives. Now I'm sure a student might be able to do something that would rock the boat of those reviewing it. But if you gave that same thesis to a group of about five of us on the board, we would be able to shred it by point out where it's factually fucked up or just off the deep end. I mean... I guess it's worth it to the student if he can bullshit his way to his PhD. That doesn't mean that the end result would be worthwhile at all to deep thinkers of pro wrestling such are ourselves. John

You completely miss the point. Meltzer wasn't given detailed information on Scott's run as booker, or at least didn't share it with us in any fashion that us Useful. John

We don't have the numbers for every promotion in the country in 1978, so we don't know. Was it bigger than the WWF? No. Bigger than the AWA? We don't know. Bigger than others? We don't know. How big was it in the 50s? We don't know. How big was it in the 60s? We don't know. How big was it in 1974? We don't know. We don't know that for pretty much every promotion in the country. In the sense of Andre and Dusty? Not at all. In the sense of Graham in 1978, coming off runs of being on top in the WWWF and prior to that getting a big push in the AWA? Not at all. I'd love for someone to give me a list of everywhere Ric worked in 1980, and how big he was pushed in those places. Again, it's useless. But if you'd like, we can go through it: True. This was true until it took over the GA office in 1985, which was the first step of JCP "expansion". This is true. This is true: Scott had a rep as a good booker. Note that Dave doesn't list when Scott was the book, the start date or the end date, so we can't tie it into when Flair and Steamer were really developing. Dave doesn't date this three-year period. We don't know if they were also strong before the period, i.e. the period where JV and Wahoo were on top. We don't know if it was a period when the Andersons were on top. We don't know who else was on top. It's kind of vague. Hence... it's useless on it's own. It's hard to say it was "one", because that would make it stronger than the WWWF, which is patented nonsense. But again, we don't know (i) when Dave is crediting Scott as being booker, and (ii) we don't know if that three-year period actually started before Flair and Steamer when JV and Wahoo were on top... or practically anything. It's just tossed out there. And here Dave is ripping Scott right after giving him credit. So it's really useless. Two points? Dave made a lot of points in it, and contradicted his own thesis by the last sentence. Did JCP do good business during the 70s? Yes. When did it start and when did it end? We don't know. How did it compare to JCP in the 60s and 50s? We don't know. How did it compare to the rest of the country? We don't know. Was Flair on top during parts of that good business? Yes. All of it? We don't know... but it doesn't appear to be the case because folks point to JV and Wahoo as well. Was Flair the sole reason for that good business? Not even Flair marks would claim that. Should Flair be given credit for being one of the key figures in a strong territorial run? Of course - it's a big positive. Is it as big of a positive as being a strong drawing World Champ from 1981-86? No, don't be silly. John