jdw

Maybe rather than the 100 brawlers better than Brody we could have a thread of the 100 cliched defenses of workers who aren't as good as people thought they were back in the day. This is right out of it. John

I believe the first time that Terry expressed this opinion was to Dave and me in the "dressing trailer" after the 8/1/96 FMW card. Dave literally laughed... at Terry. I was too polite to laugh - I just had a big smile on my face. At which point Terry smiled sheepishly to acknowledge he knew that we knew he was exaggerating. Now the year before just after the end of the Weekly Pro Wrestling Dome Show, Terry afterwards said "those All Japan boys are the best I've ever seen" with no prompting from us and while he was sober (i.e. before he packed away all the beers over dinner with us later that evening)... so who knows when Terry was saying what he really thought. John

No and none at all. Damn... this thread if full of great quotes. John

John

Brody was over in Japan. No doubt... though the irony is that: * AJPW drew more with Choshu than with Brody * they drew more with Tenryu going opposite Jumbo as well * they drew more with Misawa going opposite Jumbo than any of those... including Brody New Japan drew more with Ishingundan on top than Brody. They drew far more in the 90s than what Brody did. So it's an overstatement to say just how big Brody was. Big... but the rising Native vs Native didn't just make him obsolete, but blew him away as a draw. So there's that. The funny thing about this is that a lot of us watching Brody today look at him like 1991-96 Undertaker: a faker than fake gimmick goofball. A stiff kick doesn't cover up the rest of the silly gimmick. I'd also love for people reading the WONs that were written while Brody was alive to find Dave expressing that regularly about Brody. The "real" stuff wasn't all that important to Dave in the 80s. Instead, what Dave liked to say made Brody was great was that Frank could go into any area in any setting and get *himself* over. In hindsight, the problem with that old positive about Brody was that it could be applied even more so to... Hulk Hogan John

I didn't take Dave's writing in those issues to be "neutral". It was pretty pro-Brody. Frank left AJPW because the Roadies were coming in for a big push and big money, and Frank didn't respect them. In reality, Choshu's Army largely made Brody (and the gaijin in general) much less relevant. The sign was on the wall. The Warriors were just another item making Brody less important to AJPW. In turn, Brody's jump was played up as a life saver for NJPW, but it really didn't have a sustained impact. Brody was to a degree like Flair - there always was a "reason" to justify his fuck ups / being an asshole. John

I do think we need to move away from the notion that the only reason hardcore fans in the 80s thought Brody was great was because he got stabbed to death resulting in Dave making him a god. Best Brawler 1980 Bruiser Brody 1981 Bruiser Brody 1982 Bruiser Brody 1983 Bruiser Brody 1984 Bruiser Brody 1985 Stan Hansen 1986 Terry Gordy 1987 Bruiser Brody He was thought of as "great" before he died. In the early 1983-84 WON's, Dave had him up there with the very best workers - up there with Flair. Those votes weren't just Dave counting his own votes like PWI. It was other WON readers sending in ballots that agreed with him. Suspect we'd find Brody high in the Worker Polls in most of those years as well. Not defending them... but let's be clear in getting across that it wasn't just Dave and Larry who thought he was great back when he was alive. John

The Molinaro book (which was produced by the Observer) rated Brody #18 among professional wrestlers all time. That's pretty substantial praise coming from somewhere. And it's easily the most absurd ranking in that book. Brody over Terry Funk? Harley Race? That's not just overrating Brody. That's ranking him over some of the iconic figures of wrestling. I take it most here wouldn't rank Brody in the top 100? (Keeping in mind that includes more than ringwork) This. I'm somewhat surprised that Loss thought there doesn't remain a strong pro-Brody group out there. The "mainstream" is the Brody is an all-time great. We are the idiots who think he's wildly overrated as a worker. John

This actually isn't true. Hansen does give the face things. Covered it in my review of the match, as a contrast to Brody's unwillingness to give the faces much if anything. Not saying that Hansen was Ric Flair in there bumping and stooging his ass of for Steamer and Jay. That's not Hansen's character anyway. But he was very giving relative to Brody. John

A heads up for Loss and Will if you don't already have it: Dan put out a "complete G-1 '91" set a year or so ago. This pulled in all the TV, commercial an handheld material to put together the most complete version of the 1991 G-1 series that's possible. He had some new and fresh stuff in it that hadn't previously been available. You guys probably want to use that as your source rather than older materials. John

http://www.otherarena.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1434 11/26/82 - Real World Tag League: Stan Hansen & Bruiser Brody vs. Rick Steamboat & Jay Youngblood I might have buried somewhere the thread going over Brody vs Flair. John

No comments from Loss on this one.

I liked Taylor as a heel, and thought it sad that he went to the WWF and got Roosters right as he seemed to finally be coming into his own. He's just one of those guys who came across as a more natural worker and performer as a heel. Thought he was pretty solid as a heel back in WCW. John

Shit... I'm sorry about that, Will. I saw that TM, DK and Angle... but I totally glazed over on Shawn being the fourth one in there as HBK. Don't even know who I thought that was. *rolls eyes at self* If I really was blowing it off, I'd have used Angle instead of Muraco: I hate his work in the ring way early, and still hate how he's viewed in certain circles. John

I think they liked Brody's wild character, the aura of violence, the juice, etc. it became self fulfilling. The analogy that I always liked, which I think Frank came up with, was the Brody was the Undertaker of his era. That was tossed out back at a time when folks thought Taker was a gimmick and not really any good, so it was quite insulting for Brody Fans to have to hear. I think the irony might be that Taker at his best was better than Brody. John

Case in point: there are people who really like him. Not just the old Bingo Hall Circle Jerkers, but more recent people like Jerome and Dylan who've rewatch a shitload of ECW more recently and with much more historical perspective than the BHCJ's. I still dislike him, and can't go long into any of his matches without getting annoyed by what he spawned. Granted... whenever I do a full rewatch of 90s AJPW, there will reach a point where I just start hating the fuck out of Kobashi and Misawa for what they spawned. The question will be how deep into the 90s will I get before having that vibe, and then how much stuff after that point will be able to overcome it (like 12/06/96). My guess is... sooner on the first than happened in real time, and on the second... probably less than did at the time. John

I am glad to have been one of the folks at the forefront of the "Hey... isn't Brody kind of shitty?" movement more than a decade ago. Which I think was predated a number of years by: YOHE: "Hansen was better than Brody." DAVE: "Well..." YOHE: "Was watching a bunch of their matches, and Hansen carried that team." DAVE: "Um..." YOHE: "Brody's pretty overrated." DAVE: *silence* Other than the first quote, which was exact, that's a paraphrasing it. But that was from one of the early trips to TJ, with Steve way ahead of the curve on how great Hansen was and that Brody was overrated... and it not going over too well. John

"Wait a damn minute! I didn't get listed by that Pesky tOA Kid?!?!"

4? John, thinking 4 is annoying because I couldn't list Dory...

I would split the styles. What was done in 1990-92 was probably sustainable, in the sense that lots of other workers has sustainability issues (Hennig, Savage, Steamboat, Austin, Arn, etc). AJPW was a "stiff" promotion in that era, but hadn't gotten fully insane. What was done in 1996-99 wasn't sustainable, even though a lot of wrestling followed that path. 1993-95 is a period of change, and you can probably find some things that are sustainable and others that more than hint at what comes later. John

Actually, I think most people are misinterpreting what *I've* said over the years. I've praised some of the workers and some of the matches as being the best in the world at the time, though lord knows if I'll still think that re-watching the stuff 20 years after the fact. I also was highly critical of the "style" and many of those same workers as the decade went on. Mind you, this was counter to the "consensus" at the time. "Oh, but jdw-to... you always loved All Japan." No. I was just about the only person critical of these two matches: 10/31/98 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi 06/11/99 Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi when everyone else was whipping out their cocks while watching them and jizzing on themselves? Minor, insignificant matches that weren't representative of the All Japan "style" at the time? Triple Crown matches. Budokan main events. The top two stars in All Japan at the time. And... wait for it... Wrestling Observer Match of the Year award winners. I took a load of shit at the time for not also whipping out my cock over those matches like everyone else. I've also written a number of times since then that while I liked the 07/24/95 Misawa vs Kawada at the time as essentially a "sprint" between the two relative to what they had done in the past and what pretty much every other heavy was doing at the time, that I also suspect that if we go back and watch the entire decade of All Japan that's it's a match (and possibly the match) where the promotion moves away from the style of past and into the style of the later part of the decade that I increasingly found problematic. In other words, the evolution coughed up an example earlier than I thought, in a match I liked a lot at the time, in a rivalry that I liked a great deal. I suspect people will find that I'm more reflective on and critical of my "favorite" promotion and period than most folks... well... almost anyone. John

That's not exactly what I said, but you never were very good at following someone else's argument. So what did *I* say, Daniel. Point me to the post that you're putting into my mouth. John

Did I? I could swear it was *you* who claimed that people don't make Great Lists and GOATs in things other than Pro Wrestling. Then a bunch of people, including me, pointed out how silly you were being. John

I did. We all agree that most people and most matches blow it off. That doesn't mean everyone does. John

01/21/96 Ohtani vs El Samurai John