jdw

I don't have a problem with V-3. Pretty sure I've voted for him in the past, and likely will again in the future if he doesn't get in this year. It was a "numbers" error on my part: I counted up 10 guys that I voted for, forgetting that Weston's group doesn't count against the 10 you can vote for.

Mine: I FOLLOWED THE HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES Kinji Shibuya I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS IN U.S/CANADA CANDIDATES Bryan Danielson/Daniel Bryan I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN CANDIDATES Volk Han I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO CANDIDATES Blue Panther Brazo de Oro & Brazo de Plata & El Brazo Cien Caras El Signo & El Texano & Negro Navarro Huracan Ramirez Karloff Lagarde NON-WRESTLERS Stanley Weston * * * * * Not overly enthused about any of the nominations beyond a Lucha category that's still bloated with reasonable candidates. Two of those categories are a "vote for someone" rather than a "I really think this guy must be in". I'd also like to see the ice get more thawed on "groups". Perhaps Los Misioneros de la Muerte and the Brazos can start that process. There are other worthy groups that warrant being on the ballot, and some who warrant getting voted in.

Choshu left. Tenryu wanted to move up opposite Jumbo to fight for #1.

The one change I would make to it would be clear that I think Terry worked holds in an awesome fashion when the match called for it, or he was working in that mindset. Race... never so hot in that. * * * * * I wouldn't go so far as to say Harley invented the style. He still would work holds. They just were boring. In a way, he was similar to Choshu's style, which also had impact coming from a different company. Boring holds, high impact spots. The differences is that Choshu gave the illusion of higher pacing because he did things with a combination of flury and furry, whereas Harley was more methodical in his high impact stuff. Flair certainly had his role in the modern style: since he sucked at working holds and really wasn't enthused to go with them unless the opponent needed to, he had more of a go-go, transitional and near MTYT style that shares elements with the modern style. His 40 minutes World Wide match with Barry is far closer to a modern style way of filling 40 minutes than how one would do it in the 70s or 60s. The big moves have advanced since 1987, but it's really more of a spot focused match than working holds to eat up a lot of time. In contrast, Race's snoozefest with Lawler ate up loads of time with a repetitive headlock sequence that was pretty cool the first time you watch them work through the counter and counter-to-the-counter, but gets old as run through it time again (as much if not more than Backlund-Race working the headlock). Race is a little hard to pigeon hole. His 1975 30:00 draw with Baba, the unending match with Lawler and the MSG match with Backlund are filled with extremely long sequences of working holds (or in some cases A Hold). Backlund-Race does have some terrific high spots in it, but a good deal of that is Bob rather than Harley dipping into the Big Race Book Of Moves. The Baba match is downright low tech compared to their first 1979 title change. The Lawler match does have some terrific bumps, some high spots... but I'd be hard pressed to think the high spot ratio is above Flair-Barry.

lol

He's not a Japanese worker. His core was AWA for 50+ months from 9/64-12/68, 2/3rds of which he spent as tag champ. He made one tour of Japan in that period, with it taking place in his last year in the AWA. His second core was the year plus in the Funk promotion, again making just one trip to Japan as part of the group going with Dory Funk Sr. and Jr. He then anchored himself in the Mizzu territory for over three years, making three more series in Japan, basically one a year. Harley wasn't good at working holds, though that wasn't uncommon: Flair was poor working holds. In turn, most "Japan" guys like Baba and Jumbo (and some will tell you Inoki) were quite strong at working holds. On the flip side, Harley did the suplexes like the Funks, bumped his ass off like plenty of AWA heels along with West Texas wrestlers like Terry and Murdoch and a younger Dusty. *Japan* over time wrestled more like Harley and Terry: suplexes, big movies, increasingly poor/indifferent about holds, bump, high impact. When one considers who was the World Champ when a lot of those guys were in Jr. High School and High School, and how much Baba over time loved Harley, it makes perfect sense.

May I suggest editing the link to Ditch out of the thread. It's one thing for folks on Youtube to get taken down, but Ditch is a resource going back for years that we don't want to get fucked with. As far as what he's doing, he's working in DC a capcity that makes for another good reason for his sites not to be tossed around on the public boards here. -Sgt. Esterhaus, Hill Street Blues

Ric had shit to do to pop the crowd. That was the basic gameplan. If one just accepts that he's a spot worker just tossing good shit out to pop the crowd even if it doesn't make sense beyond that, then one will see he's a really good worker in that context.

NTV. Which is why it would pop up on All Japan specials. On the other hand, they have been allowing non-AJPW folks to use them. There were JWA matches on the Inoki box set. The bigger problem is just as with the AJPW stuff: there is no incentive to mass release it. There isn't a weekly classics show they're feeding on a cable channel that needs constant "new" material. The market isn't huge for it, so they tend to slowly trickle stuff out, for the most part sticking to what they've previously converted. A special box set like Inoki or Tenryu might force them to find at least a few new things to sprinkle on. There's an insane amount in the vault. We don't know how much of it the saved in the 60s, when many folks around the world were dumping their film. It seems like that the two most famous Destroyer vs Rikidozan matches do not exist. If they did, they would have come out by now. Holy Grail. There's stuff like the 1969 New Year Champion Series with it's four tag title matches between Giant Baba & Antonio Inoki vs Danny Hodge & Wilbur Snyder, with a pair of title changes and a 60:00 draw, a Int'l Title match with Baba defending against Snyder and a Hodge-Inoki singles match. There's a 1975 Baba & Jumbo title defense against the Texas Outlaws in the same series where the 1975 Open League singles tourney took place. Just an insane amount of stuff. A lot of which likely has been lost, but loads that hasn't been and is just sitting there.

On the first Shawn match, here were Frank's comments after the set came out: Seeing it again, Shawn did next to nothing in the match other than a bit of strutting and stooging and a handful of basic moves and holds. This was at a point where Shawn struggled to fill four minute squash matches because his offense was so pathetically underdeveloped. The open is reminiscent of Backlund vs Adonis with Shawn showing up Backlund with an arm drag, a hiptoss, and a body slam to set up eating three payback spots in rapid fire succession. From there Shawn applied a full nelson to set up Backlund's reversal and Backlund's trademark counters to reversals Shawn had never used before in his career. After that, Shawn went to a pedestrian front facelock other than a cool shoulder drive action on the canvas. Bob was so into Bob in wrestling peril that he sold inordinately for both holds. The second hold led to Bob placing Shawn on the turnbuckle and slapping him in the face, another Bob spot. Did Shawn call any spots in this match? Did Shawn do anything Brad Armstrong (solid but dull worker) or Michael Hayes (sloppy but charismatic worker) couldn't have done in this match? This is why I referred to Shawn having a "lost" period between the Rockers and emerging as a main event singles star thanks to splat fu matches like the ladder match with Razor Ramon. Shawn's initial singles push exposed him as a guy who couldn't carry his weight as singles wrestler except when someone else called the match and provided most of the offense.

From puroresu.com, here are Dory's title matches in JWA: 1969/11/28 Tokyo - Kuramae Kokugikan (12,000) NWA International Tag Team Title: Giant Baba & Antonio Inoki* (1-1) Dory Funk Jr. & Danny Hodge 1: Hodge (27:12 pin) Inoki 2: Inoki (11:15 abdominal stretch) Hodge 3: (60min time limit) 1969/12/01 Hiroshima - Pref. Gym All Asia Tag Team Title: Antonio Inoki & Michiaki Yoshimura (2-1) Dory Funk Jr. & Harley Race 1: Race (16:28 pin) Yoshimura 2: Inoki & Yoshimura (6:23 DQ) 3: Yoshimura (2:32 pin) Harley Race 1969/12/02 Osaka - Pref. Gym (10,000) NWA World Heavyweight Title: Dory Funk Jr.* (0-0) Antonio Inoki 1: (60min limit draw) 1969/12/03 Tokyo - Tokyo Metro. Gym NWA World Heavyweight Title: Dory Funk Jr.* (1-1) Giant Baba 1: Baba (21:07 pin) 2: Dory (3:47 spinning toe hold) 3: draw (60min time limit) This is likely the match that Dory is talking about with Baba. There was online a clip of it on Youtube, but got yanked... which is bizzare considering all the stuff that's up there. My recollection is that it looked pro shot. Anyway, this would be high on the list of holy grails. The Inoki match historically is the one folks talk about more as being a key moment in Inoki's career. Baba had matches prior to this point with NWA, AWA, WWWF and WWA world champs. Going forward... 1969/12/04 Sapporo - Nakajima Sports Center NWA International Tag Team Title: Giant Baba & Antonio Inoki* (2-1) Dory Funk Jr. & Buddy Austin 1: Dory (18:12 pin) Inoki 2: Baba (2:19 pin) Austin 3: Inoki (4:06 abdominal stretch) Dory 1970/07/30 Osaka - Pref. Gym NWA International Heavyweight Title: Giant Baba* (1-1) Dory Funk Jr. 1: Dory (17:20 pin) 2: Baba (28:20 pin) 3: (6:55 DCOR) Note: that was for Baba's title. That wasn't uncommon. Bruno and Kiniski's matches in Japan were typically for Baba's belt rather than their own, though Bruno's first was for the WWWF Title instead. 1970/08/02 Fukuoka - Sports Center NWA World Heavyweight Title: Dory Funk Jr.* (1-1) Antonio Inoki 1: Funk (30:48 pin) 2: Inoki (7:04 german suplex) 3: (60min limit draw) 1970/08/04 Tokyo - Tokyo Metro. Gym NWA International Tag Team Title: Giant Baba & Antonio Inoki* (2-0) Dory Funk Jr. & Terry Funk 1: Baba & Inoki (26:17 DQ) 2: Baba (5:45 half crab) Terry 1971/12/01 Nagoya - Aichi Pref. Gym All Asia Tag Team Title: Antonio Inoki & Michiaki Yoshimura* (1-1) Dory Funk Jr. & Dick Murdoch 1: Murdoch (28:09 pin) Michiaki Yoshimura 2: Michiaki Yoshimura (23:00 rolling clutch hold) Dick Murdoch 3: (60min limit draw) 1971/12/07 Sapporo - Nakajima Sports Center NWA International Tag Team Title*: Dory Funk Jr. & Terry Funk (2-1) Giant Baba & Antonio Inoki 1: Dory (16:05 pin) Inoki 2: Baba (5:34 boston crab) Terry 3: Terry (4:12 pin) Baba Inoki's last match with JWA. He was officially expelled on 12/11, but was removed from the 12/9 & 12/10 cards prior to that. Sak taking his spot on the next card: 1971/12/09 Osaka - Pref. Gym NWA World Heavyweight Title: Dory Funk Jr.* (2-1) Seiji Sakaguchi 1: Sakaguchi (17:17 pin) 2: Dory (4:21 pin) 3: Dory (2:15 pin) 1971/12/12 Tokyo - Metropolitan Gym (7,500) All Asia Tag Team Title: Seiji Sakaguchi & Michiaki Yoshimura (2-1) Dory Funk Jr. & Dick Murdoch 1: Dory (14:00 pin) Seiji Sakaguchi 2: Sakaguchi (6:00 pin) Dory 3: Sakaguchi (6:30 pin) Murdoch Seiji Sakaguchi & Michiaki Yoshimura win the vacant title (vacated by Yoshimura & Inoki when Inoki was shitcanned). That the end of Dory's title matches in JWA. He has some in the US against JWA wrestlers, including dropping the NWA Int'l Tag Title to Baba & Sak in Los Angeles. Both draws with Inoki are out there. I see you hit the 1969 one as well as the Sakaguchi match and the Sakaguchi & Yoshimura vs Dory Jr. & Murdoch match. The 1970 Inoki match is out there as well.

Best is a hard word since it's comparing stuff back to his prime. But these were watchable matches that made Will's set: Bob Backlund vs. Nobuhiko Takada (UWFi 11/7/91) Bob Backlund vs. Shawn Michaels (San Antonio 1/5/93) Bob Backlund vs. Shawn Michaels (Poughkeepsie 8/16/93) The Takada match isn't to be confused with their terrific 1988 match, or their 9/26/91 quicky match with an odd finish. It's a solid match, and kind of fun to see them go at it again. The Shawn matches are pretty fun if you're a Backlund fan. If you're a Shawn Fan, and hate Backlund, then you're probably not going to like them.

Yeah, it's goofy fun, though he's thought it out fairly well. The ref is pretty good as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTFhh2nHQ1E

The old "doesn't warrant a thread" thread is dead, so I haven't got a clue of where to toss this. So perhaps a thread on really wacky creative work. This guy is frankly pretty brilliant. Of course he's exposing everything, but if you listen to and watch the crowd, they are "in" on the reality of everything, so they're having fun with it. He doesn't overstay his welcome, as just when you think it's getting long of tooth, the work to the finish is well thought out. https://www.facebook.com/408428095912101/videos/932310970190475

I never thought that influence was a requirement. It's just one of many things that might make a case. I don't think Sak goes into MMA without Takada. It was running MMA at the time of the tourneys. Then Pride stole their talent. Should Henderson and Nog and Fedor go into the WON Pro Wrestling HOF for winning the King of Kings, Openweight and Absolute tourneys in Rings? :/ To say that Rings in 1999, 2000 and 2001 when those happened was a bridge is a stretch. What drew more: Rings big events in 2000-2001, or Pride?

John, don't be so quick to forget the true catalyst of the change....

We can debate the Pro Wrestling --> MMA "bridge". When Funaki was a candidate, people pointed to Funaki (while nicely forgetting about Suzuki and Shamrock who were right there with him). When Sak was a candidate, people pointed to Sak. When Tamura is a candidate, they point to Tamura. There is some irony is that the two people who were key MMA In Japan draws in getting it over were not Funaki from Pancrase or Tamura from Rings. It was Takada and Sak from UWFi. When I look at Tamura as a candidate for my ballot, his shooting means nothing. It's was a Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame when it was created, and I could give two shits about any of the candidates shooting or college wrestling or being Gov of Minnesota.

For reference, using a 45/25 rule here are when the "Japan" wrestlers who have gotten in would have hit the ballot of they weren't already eligible by 1996. The number in the () is whether they became eligible by 45 years of age (by Ballot Year) or 25 years of experience, or in two case "B" for both. 1999 Atsushi Onita (25) 2000 Jackie Sato (25) 2000 Big Van Vader (45) 2001 Satoru Sayama (25) 2002 Jaguar Yokota (25) 2003 Akira Maeda (25) 2005 Dump Matsumoto (45) 2005 Chigusa Nagayo (25) 2005 Lioness Asuka (25) 2005 Steve Williams (45) 2006 Mitsuharu Misawa (25) 2006 Nobuhiko Takada (25) 2006 Hiroshi Hase (45) 2007 Toshiaki Kawada (25) 2007 Keiji Mutoh (45) 2008 Bull Nakano (25) 2008 Masahiro Chono (45) 2009 Jushin Liger ( 2009 Shinya Hashimoto (25) 2010 Akira Hokuto (25) 2011 Ultimo Dragon (45) 2011 Aja Kong (25) 2011 Kensuke Sasaki ( 2012 Kenta Kobashi (45) 2012 Manami Toyota (25) 2014 Kazushi Sakuraba (45) 2021 Hiroshi Tanahashi (45) Looking at that list, I'm trying to figure out who gets hurt by the change. Everyone through Maeda, with the possible exception of Sato, would go in. Vader may have been counted in the US anyway, which lowers further the number Sato would need. There would be no other comp for her: Onita would have gone in instantly. I suspect that Dump and the Crush Girls would have all gone in together, and Dave would have loved it. Chigusa with her partner and rival. Again, there is no real competition. Doc didn't get in until two years after his death. In 2005 he wouldn't have been a threat to the joshi wrestlers. Misawa goes into the Hall in 2006. Contrary to Dave's believe, Takada would have gone in. Hase would have been fucked for year given the guys coming up behind him... which isn't a bad thing. Kawada and Mutoh would have gone into the Hall in 2007: in real life, Hase went into the HOF in 2006, and no one thinks he's as good of a candidate as those two. Bull might have struggled, and Chono might have struggled just as he did in the real ballots taking several years to get in. I think Dave would have pushed the hell out of Bull, and she would have gotten in with a few years. Liger and Hash both go in straight a ways in 2009. If Bull didn't go into the Hall in 2008, she would make it in 2010 with Hokuto... and somewhere around here Chono starts making a case. Funaki would have been more interesting in 2010 than he was earlier, and even then it took him a while to get in. Looking at how regularly strong Pro Wrestling candidates are hitting the ballots, he might wait a longer time. In making the case for Bull and Hokuto, we would have been making the case for Aja. She might not have gone in instantly, but she would have started with a good base. Kensuke would have taken a while, especially since Kobashi hadn't hit. Dragon... who knows. Would love to have seen how he was treated if he hit the ballot in 2011. Kobashi goes in instantly. I think Toyota makes quick work since Dave would push the hell out of her. *If* Aja was still on the ballot, this is the point where the argument for her gets clearer: she was the Ace during all those years people lost their shit over Toyota's work. In turn, the promotion started to decline in business after Aja's run (and the interpromotional era Aja anchored) ran it's course... with Toyota beating Kansai. Sak in 2014 quite likely would have been fucked: he's an MMA Candidate who did nothing in Pro Wrestling. That argument could have won with Dave, as if Sak is a candidate, so was Cro Cop, Sak's great rival Wanderlei Silva, Nog, etc. That would have been fun to with Sak hitting the ballot a full 10 years after he slid into the HOF with folks not thinking too clearly about it. Tanahashi in 2021 would have let folks put him in better perspective, but he likely would have gone in. So the folks most like to have been hurt are the marginal candidates (Dragon, Sak, Funaki, Hase), probably the joshi wrestler who we had to work hard to get in (Aja) and possibly Jackie Sato, who would shortly have gotten in given the thin number of candidates from 2001-2004. Heck... Sato passed away in 1999 right around HOF time. Her bio would have been in people's minds in 2000 when she was the only Japanese wrestler of note on the ballot (assuming Vader was global right than Japan).

Is this something new that Dave rolled out? This doesn't sound like something he ran in with back when the issue was discussed last decade. In fact, I seem to recall the Maeda Argument was the one made, which most of us saw as a problem with the Electorate rather than the Candidate. He said it on The Board either last year or the year before. Here's a quote from Dave: http://theboard.f4wonline.com/viewtopic.php?p=4786314#p4786314 Okay, so Dave was still sticking to the bong hitting Maeda point. One wishes that Dave would slow down to think through some of these Great Explanations that he has to see if they pass the laugh test. If the requirement was 45 years of age without the 20 years past debut part (since that would have made Maeda eligible in 1998), then Maeda would hit the ballot in 2004. Look at who got into the Hall from Japan from 2004 to the present. Anyone delusional enough to think that people who voted for Aja and Hase in 2006 would have voted for Maeda in 2004? Or those who voted for Chono in 2004 (after several years on the ballot) wouldn't have voted for Maeda? So epic fail on the laugh test that takes about one minute to think about, and no more than a couple of minutes to research (i) Maeda's birthday, and (ii) who got in when he would have been hitting the ballot. This is a bit like the half dozen explanations for Jumbo Was Lazy. They make perfect sense when you spin the theory out. If one happens to spend some time to research whether they fly, you're left with a bullshit explanation.

The google translation is choppy, but one gets the feeling from her words that there is still a stigma.

The Google translation is gutting to read. I can't imagine how it reads in the native language. :.(