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I'd split it into three classes for Han: * was he the Ace of the promtion * was he the top gaijin of the promotion * was he pushed at the #1 guy in the promotion On the first, of course not. Maeda was the Ace of the promotion when he was healthy, and Tamura & Yamamoto sort of had a competition to figure out who was the next Ace as Maeda wound down due to the injuries. It was less clean than Jumbo --> Misawa since there was at least the illusion of Misawa being the Ace when Jumbo went down because Misawa had the TC, though he really hadn't yet fully staked his claim to Acedom. On the second, of course he was. Since other natives came in and got pushes leading to big matches, it gets a little murky at times. But Volk pretty consistently was the #1 gaijin for a large chunk of his time in Rings. Years. The second is a little trickier. Ring was worked-shoot, so people other than the Ace get pushed up to being "#1". With Volk, there was this winning streak: May 25, 1996 - Ekaterinburg, Russia Volk Han Over Hans Nyman June 29, 1996 - Tokyo Bay N K Hall Volk Han Over Mitsuya Nagai July 16, 1996 - Osaka Volk Han Over Tsuyoshi Kousaka (Cuts) Aug. 24, 1996 - Tokyo Ariake Coliseum Volk Han Over Tsuyoshi Kousaka Sept. 25, 1996 - Sapporo Nakajima Sports Center Volk Han Over Kiyoshi Tamura (Reverse Armlock 10:32) Oct. 25, 1996 - Nagoya Aiichi Gym Volk Han Over Masayuki Naruse Nov. 22, 1996 - Osaka Castle Hall Battle Dimension 96 Tournament Quarter Finals: Volk Han Over Tsuyoshi Kousaka Dec. 19, 1996 - Fukuoka International Center Battle Dimension 96 Tournament Semi-Final: Volk Han Over Bitsadze Tariel Jan. 22, 1997 - Toyko Budokan Hall Battle Dimension 96 Tournament Final Volk Han Over Kiyoshi Tamura (Achilles Tendon 12:36) April 22, 1997 - Osaka Furitsu Gym Volk Han Over Akira Maeda May 23, 1997 - Sendai Volk Han Over Joop Kasteel Aug. 13, 1997 - Kagoshima Yoshihisa Yamamoto Over Volk Han (Tko 11:30) Sept. 26, 1997 - Sapporo Nakajima Sports Center Kiyoshi Tamura Over Volk Han (Armbar 12:48) He pretty much was pushed to #1 by the time of the Battle Dimension 96 Final, confirmed when he beat Maeda. In a sense he was playing Hansen here: Volk was heated up to put over Yamamoto and Tamura. Tamura would then go on the streak to confirm he was the new ace in Battle Dimension 96: take out Maeda in the SF before winning the Final, with Maeda-Volk as the symbolic 3rd place match. It's an interesting push over a year. John

It is the WWE Mag, so Trip is "in character" to a point. But it ends up ripping one of the talent. An analogy... I've always thought that MLB Owners, more than any other sport, have cultivated a mindset that their players are overpaid. The NFL doesn't, with a few execptions like Haynesworth. The NBA doesn't, with a few exceptions like Gilbert Arenas. MLB? It's a constant theme. MLB Owners so hate paying the players, and have spent nearly 40 years of constantly going to war with the players, that they can't help themselves. In turn, MLB Front Offices do it as well. Who spread it to the media, who inturn spread it to the fans. It's just a massive, constant burn where it's not just the Owners vs Players, but management has cultivated Fans vs Overpaid Players. In turn, look at the NFL. If Payton Manning never plays another down, the Colts will have been on the hook for roughly $26.4M in signing bonus and this year's salary. There's been some coverage of this, and even on a major national level. But nowhere at the level of constant coverage for more than a decade of A-Rod's contract. Let's be honest: has A-Rod even done anything that's close to "Don't play at all and walk away with $26.4M on an injury you had when signing the contract"? No. What MLB management has done is helped make their fanbase dislike a large chunk of players, including players on the fans' own teams. MLB's mindset is that fans come out to see the teams, players are interchangeable, and they're assholes anyway so why build up can fan interest in there. What's happened over the past two decades? MLB popularity has dropped. Players are far less iconic on a national level than they were in the 70s, when people like Reggie Jackson and Pete Rose were bigger sports stars than a four-time Super Bowl champion QB like Terry Bradshaw. Even the two "biggest stars in Baseball" (Puljos in terms of what he's done over the past few years and Jeter in terms of New York Yankees icon) have spent the past year being portrayed as greedy relative to their contract battles with their teams. Drawing it back to the WWE... Their job is to get over stars that draw. Their job is to push stars who the fans like because those guys will help the company draw. It doesn't help that job if Management shits on wrestlers than fans like, be it all of their fans or a good sized chunk. Was/is Punk over with 100% of the WWE Fanbase. No. Does it matter? The great thing about the Beatles is that it didn't matter if 100% of the fans like John, or 100% of the fans liked Paul, or 100% of the fans liked wacky Ringo. If 75% like John, 75% Paul and 25% like Ringo... you hope that the three hit some different elements of the fanbase... and maybe even reach beyond the expected fanbase a bit. If 25% of WWE fans Really Strongly Like Punk, that's a Good Thing at a time when Buys and Attendance are kind of crappy compared to what they use to be. Perhaps it's not enough to make Punk the Ace of the promotion. But a smart promotion takes a look at this and says: "You know... other than Cena and Wrestler X, no one scores as high in the Really Strongly Likes category. And of these 25%, 80% of them aren't too enthused about the rest of the product to the point they're not buying the PPV or going to how shows... damn, that's 20% of our total audience. Okay... so it's not enough to make him the Champ, but we really need to figure out something to do with him. Either we send him over to SmackDown to be the ace since no one over there scores high, or we figure out a way to consistently place him into strong programs right below the two World Champs and keep him over with his fans by not shitting on him." And come up with something. Instead, Trip is shitting on him in a worked-shoot WWE Mag piece that comes across more shooty. If you're that 25% that likes Punk strongly, it's another reason to check out of the show. John

If 1992 Arn was the best year (along with Steamboat) of a US worker in the 1990's, does this not strike people as a little odd looking at Loss' Top 100 of 1992: #6 - Sting & Steamboat & Windham & Rhodes & Koloff vs Rude & Austin & Anderson & Eaton & Zbyszko (WCW Wrestle War 05/17/92) #53 - Sting & Rhodes & Windham & Steamboat vs Rude & Anderson & Zbyszko & Eaton (WCW Saturday Night 02/22/92) #59 - Arn Anderson vs Dustin Rhodes (WCW Saturday Night 01/04/92) That's it for Arn matches from 1992. It's not as if Loss doesn't like Arn, and doesn't like WCW. Plenty of positive things said by him about WCW's 1992 stuff in his reviews. Then looking at the two highest there, you've got Wargames with 10 people (admittedly Arn was very good, but not exactly make/break since there were 10 other people involved in the greatness of the match), and another 8 man tag with some pretty decent folks in it. There are other Arn matches that made the year book that didn't make his Top 100, and I recall that they generally got positive comments. But 3 out of 100... 7 - Barry 7 - Dustin 7 - Steamboat 6 - Rude 4 - Austin 3 - Arn Don't know... kind of odd. John

Understood. Was just thinking that the elements of the writing don't sound like someone who is 61. Though perhaps the time in PR (where he / folks for him pimped the ratings) and TNA (which is so TV lingo insane) have brought him up to date. I'd also forgotten that he took a WON Booker of the Year Award for PR... hmmm... Dutch wiki page: WON Awards wiki page: Okay... it is pretty funny that Dutch (or someone else editing his Wiki page) stole Paul's 5th of 5 Booker of the Year Awards. "It's not like Paul will miss it..." -Dutch Anyway, setting aside the joking... if Dutch corresponds with Dave, and given Dutch's time in TNA (which is pretty obsessive about core audience stuff), then it's possible that Dutch is up to spend and that's him. Does Dutch appear to keep up with the WWE? John

Does this sound like Dutch: "Core audience is male, 18 to 30 or whatever." Talking about "core audience" is a more modern concept, at least in being written like that. Perhaps Dutch has stayed up to day on lingo like that and incorporated it into his writing. Doesn't seem likely, though. John

Meltzer has also praised Bret Hart's ability to carry workers, saying it was very different to the way Michaels or Flair would carry lesser workers. I remember during the whole Hart/Flair internet feud, Meltzer writing a long piece in the Observer, that basically ended with Meltzer saying that he felt that Hart was able to make you think a guy he was working with was actually better than he was as opposed to Flair (or Michaels) putting on their show and getting in their spots to "make up" for the lesser worker. I remember Meltzer using a corny line about Bret "being a magician in the ring" in regards to him being able to craft matches with lesser workers I talked to Dave in 1994-96 more than anyone other than probably Bruce and Tenay. Dave liked Bret. He didn't think he was as good a Shawn. He didn't think he was close to Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi or Benoit. Toss in Toyota as well. Seriously... I can't think of any Bret matches we spent much time talking about other than the Bret-Davey IYH (80% about the blading / non-blading) and Bret-Shawn at Mania (which we went to live). "Did you see.... ?" almost never related to a Bret match, and it's not like all we talked about was puroresu. The Flair/Hart internet feud was after Dave started rethinking Bret, not what he wrote at the time. In a way, Bret is almost unique: he's one worker where Dave really rethought his view on his work later. I'm never going to say that Dave didn't like Bret's work. There are positive comments about Bret going back well into the 80s... well, with the exception of Dave bagging on Bret's house show work on occassion. But his comments about Shawn... different level. An example: I joked recently about a comment in one of Dave's 1994 Carny TV reports that was a mild barb thrown at me. It related to a Shawn match... and not the praised Bret match on the same card which was also a part of my comment to him that drew the barb. The kind of funny thing about reading the comments of Noodles and puropotsy is that they're far closer to Yohe's thoughts in 1994-96 on Bret at the time, and not as much Dave's except on a match here and a match there. Yohe was about the biggest backer of Bret's at the time compared to Shawn, and would say as much on road trips when the WWF came up. John

Flair has down periods and was clearly on the downslide for virtually the entire decade. You cannot say that for Arn. Arn's TV title reign was, at the time, less thrilling than one would have hoped for going in. Perhaps that ages well, though I wonder if it ages "solid" like a decent amount of underappreciated stuff does (say like decent Tito Santana matches) or ages Great! like say Rude vs Warrior at SummerSlam does where you're left thinking this is a shitload better than it was given credit at the time for being. It was a year and a half with the belt, and I just don't remember anything sticking out as terribly awesome. Was there anything like say the Garvin vs Blanchard syndiction match in 1986 that lept out in the past half decade as something folks went batshit for? Up above had the "what was he doing in 93-94", which is another two years. 1996 had some time out for the surgery, and I'm trying to remember how much of his stuff was GREAT~! that year, or just typical solid Arn stuff. That's kind of Arn: a really solid worker. A king of grinding out good and entertaining matches. But there aren't a ton of times even in his excellent matches where he stands out as say Tully did in the Garvin match above, or Tully opposite Steamber at Starcade '84 (which is a pretty fucking great match that probably would end up in the Top 10 of the WWF 80's if it happened in the WWF). I like Arn a lot. But if we're pimping him that high up as a worker, you might as well drag his name over into the WON HOF thread and start pimping him there. John

"former successful booker" Exactly how many of them are there who would write Dave? Cornette, Paul E, Gabe... it starts getting thin after that. Dusty wouldn't write that, and Dave would describe him in a different way than "booker". Court a "former successful booker"? My ass. Anyone else in the "WWE Creative Era"? Other than Paul E, no... Dave wouldn't describe any of the former members of WWE Creative currently writing in that way. Russo? Sure... Patterson? Doesn't look like how he would write it, and I doubt Dave would describe Pat in a blind item as "former successful booker". Same with Larry From St. Louis... what in the hell did Larry "successfully book"? The old WCCW Salad Days bookers? No... We're running thin, folks. Cornette wouldn't write that since he's in ROH. So it's either Gabe or Heyman. I'm not sure why Heyman would withhold his name, unless he thinks there's some $$$ in there to be made of New ROH Ownership bounces Corney & Co. and goes looking for Saint Paul. That seems unlikely, unless Dave just wanted to protect Heyman by withholding the names. Gabe? What's strange is that one would think Heyman and Gabe would see Punk as having more potential than the WWE does. In fact, didn't Heyman like Punk back in the day? So maybe that "successul" part is a throw off, and in reality the former members of WWE Creative aren't really bookers anyway: they're freaking writers. Fab piece here. Because it's unattributed, we don't know whether to give it any credibility or now because for all we know it could be fucking Terry Taylor. John

Not really the spirit of the question/discussion. Volk Han and Stan Hansen aren't Japanese, but if I were rating the Best Japanese workers from the 90's, I would include both in the discussion. The title is best U.S. worker of the '90s, not AMERICAN worker of the '90's. I see no reason why Bret or Benoit shouldn't be considered, they both worked extensively in the U.S. If it's "American", than we'd have to bring in all the Luchadores since they're all Americans: the folks who live in North, Central and South America. Regardless of how one slices it, Eddy was an US worker by both definitions who worked enough in the US for us to drag is body of work into the debate, and he pretty much kicks the living shit out of the rest of the people in the discussion... unless we want to drag in the luchadores, where Dandy and Casas and Santito will get their supporters. John

I wouldn't even go that far, on either parts of that statement. I'm not sure that Arn Anderson was a "great" worker. Clearly good, super solid, and had streaks of greatness. I don't think Sting was remotely close to Arn in terms of being a good worker. Sting was in some great matches. So was Kerry Von Erich. I'm not sold that Kerry is someone we can term as a good worker. He wasn't horrible, except perhaps when stoned out of his mind. He had streaks of being good, and when you tossed him in with a great worker or in a great setting, you could have a pretty damn fab match where Kerry held up his end of the work. But I'm not sure that when you lined up all the workers of the era you'd say Kerry was in the "good" camp unless we're expanding that to be a truly massive list. Sting was a solid worker. Within his *type* of wrestler (muscle head), he was good. That's a bit of a double edge: Being a muscle head means that some under estimated him and don't give him credit for being solid. Being a muscle head means the standards of the type are really fucking low because quite of few of his peers sucked cock in the ring John

I don't think JCP was so well off in early 1983 as some JCP fanboys (i.e. not folks here) think they might have been. So they might not have had the funds to go into a major expansion. I can see Dusty having respect for the Grahams. There also was major taboo about attacking another NWA territory. Eddie also didn't die until January 1985. I don't know how much power he passed off to Mike while he was still alive. It's *possible* that the time to deal with Florida was as Vince was just going into it in Miami, and deal directly with Eddie on a Merger. Use Dusty as a go between. Problem is that Eddie might demand a 50-50 by over playing the size of his territory. I *think* the way you get around that is comparing the revenue of 1983-84, in which case JCP would drawf Florida. Graham's % of the merger would be based on that. This would be after Vince bought out GA, so there's a little bit of a cloud hanging over the NWA that JCP could use: Vince was clearly expanding, going to massive war with the AWA and St Louis, taking out GA... "and the move into Miami shows you're next, Eddie." Would he go for that? Don't know. I'm trying to remember the details of the GA purchase by Vince. Was it Barnett & the Briscos' cut that he bought out, or were there other owners as well? JCP did have a relationship with the Briscos going back a while. Jimmy had to have dealt with Barnett in the NWA circles for years. Not saying any of this "should" have happened, or even "could". Though I do think that once Vince bought GA that JCP should have actively pushed to: (i) get the new TBS deal(s) (ii) get the NWA territory of GA (i.e. allowed to expand into it) John

Because Sting wasn't a "great worker". Unless we've bastardized the word "great" into something completely meaningless. Everything in wrestling that's good, watchable, enjoyable, fun or cool isn't GREAT. That's would be the top of the shelf shit. John

Eddy was born in the US. Bret and Benoit are Canadians. Obviously Eddy is the answer. John

I see it's locked/closed. I know it was getting long, but perhaps letting it run to the end of 2011 and then start a 2012?

Hitting Florida first: Hollywood, FL - Sportatorium - June 16, 1984 Hollywood, FL - Sportatorium - July 21, 1984 Miami, FL - Knight Center - September 22, 1984 Miami, FL - Knight Center - October 27, 1984 Miami, FL - Knight Center - November 27, 1984 Jacksonville, FL - Veterans Memorial Coliseum - December 26, 1984 Miami, FL - Knight Civic Center - December 26, 1984 Miami, FL - Knight Center - January 16, 1985 Miami, FL - Knight Center - January 29, 1985 Miami, FL - Knight Center - February 22, 1985 Miami, FL - Knight Center - March 15, 1985 Jacksonville, FL - Coliseum - March 16, 1985 Miami, FL - April 24, 1985 West Palm Beach, FL - Auditorium - April 29, 1985 Miami, FL - May 26, 1985 West Palm Beach, FL - May 27, 1985 Miami, FL - Knight Center - June 15, 1985 Jacksonville, FL - June 1985 Miami, FL - Knight Center - July 18, 1985 Pensacola, FL - Civic Center - August 15, 1985 Ft. Myers, FL - Lee Civic Center - August 16 or 17, 1985 Miami, FL - Knight Center - August 17, 1985 Tampa, FL - August 18, 1985 Orlando, FL - Orange County Convention Center - August 19, 1985 Miami, FL - Knight Center - September 16, 1985 West Palm Beach, FL - Auditorium - September 17, 1985 Miami, FL - Knight Center - October 6, 1985 West Palm Beach, FL - Auditorium - October 7, 1985 Miami, FL - Knight Center - October 28, 1985 Miami, FL - Knight Center - October 28, 1985 Jacksonville, FL - Coliseum - October 30, 1985 West Palm Beach, FL - Auditorium - November 25, 1985 Jacksonville, FL - Coliseum - November 26, 1985 Miami, FL - Knight Center - November 27, 1985 Miami, FL - Knight Center - December 9, 1985 Orlando, FL - Orange County Civic Center - December 10, 1985 Tampa, FL - SunDome - December 19, 1985 Hollywood looking like targeting Miami before they got the Miami building they wanted. I think we can say they were consistently running Miami from mid-1984 on. West Palm Beach is up the road from Hollywood... an intersting place to run. They would often do it on the same swing as Miami. Polulation over over half a million in 1980, and rapidly growing. Lots of shows there: April 29, 1985 May 27, 1985 September 17, 1985 October 7, 1985 November 25, 1985 We're probably missing shows there, possibly even shows prior to April. Jacksonville: December 26, 1984 March 16, 1985 June 1985 October 30, 1985 November 26, 1985 Again, suspect we might be missing shows. But Vince moved into Jacksonville in Dec 1984 and look to have run shows about every three months: five shows in 11 months. Tampa / Orlando: Tampa, FL - August 18, 1985 Orlando, FL - Orange County Convention Center - August 19, 1985 Orlando, FL - Orange County Civic Center - December 10, 1985 Tampa, FL - SunDome - December 19, 1985 That looks like the one they moved into in the second half of 1985. This oddball: Pensacola, FL - Civic Center - August 15, 1985 Probably best summed up by: * Miami first in mid-1984 (Hollywood --> Miami then Miami + West Palm) * Jacksonville in Dec 1984 * Tampa & Orlando in Aug 1985 Agree with all of this, especially JCP not having a great year in 1984. They had been gutted as 1983 went along, and by early 1984 were thing when Flair was touring. I don't know if JCP had the resources to finance an expansion. You never were going to get Ole to go along with it, though it would have been interesting if you could have gotten Ole's partners (who eventually sold out to Vince) to go along. *That* might have been the thing to do: buy them out bit by bit, then make Ole an offer for whatever shares he had. I don't recall the share structure at the time. JCP would have gotten the TBS slot, and made Ted perfectly happy. Then the questions becomes how well could you have convinced Graham to come along, and when. The attacks on Miami were obvious, though Mike probably thought he was doing okay. The move into Jacksonville strike me as Vince showing he was serious. I really think JCP needed to get into there before Tampa, Orlando and St Pete were easing to Vince... and before Miami & Jacksonville were too locked down. On Ohio: We're they doing any business of note? It's not like Vince had a problem making Ohio his own, and it never was a really strong JCP market. I think Ole ran it because it was "open" and hoped to do something there, not because they were rolling in the dough. I don't disagree with the notion that it would have been nice to get that if you're JCP... I just don't see it as one where Vince could lose, and that it wouldn't be a serious ass kicking. That's why I focus on GA and FL. It's clear that JCP had good success in GA, and that Vince had major issues there for ages. FL is closer to California than the other Southern states, so it's possible that it was set up to buy Vince's product. But it also has a feel as a place were, if in there earlier enough, JCP might have at a best "worst case" of something akin to Baltimore: a good area for them even if Vince does well to. A better case would be beating back Vince. Of course it's entirely possible Vince would have rolled Florida anyway. John

I know Will has a ton of projects and there's no chance of this getting on the list before next year's HOF (i.e. release in say March so a lot of voters had time to watch it), but a strong say 10-15 Disc (if there's enough footage) British comp is something that could have a lot of impact. 30 disc is too much for people to weigh through. 5 discs might not be enough, depending on match length. But a good 10 disc or so set might give a good overview. It would have to include the "best" representative stuff of Daddy and Haystacks as well to put those guys in context, and not totally sandbag them. If not Will, someone who does sets akin to Will. Get it to Dave, and ask Dave to circulate the e-mail address of the creator to potential British HOF Voters to track it down. I don't suggest doing it for free, and would probably recommend that Dave *not* send it to any voters who are in the business because you don't want some WWE'er to pass it along to McDevitt. Anyway, I think that people like Breaks and McManus aren't on the radar for voters. FWIW: I didn't vote for anyone British as I just don't feel knowledable enough about it yet. John

I'd be interested in what buildings they were running in Clev and Colombus. I don't think they were doing any kind of business in Michigan until "relaunching" in 1987 with the Flair-Garvin title change, and even then it was limited success. I just don't think it's worth the time to run in Ohio averaging 4000, if they even averaged 4000. I don't know what they could have done about Florida. Vince moved into Florida in mid-late 1984, then with a vengence in 1985: 1984 - 7 shows 1985 - 34 1986 - 24 1987 - 28 1988 - 22 Those are "at least", since Graham probably doesn't have all of them. I think when Barry & Rotundo left, it should have been the handwriting on the wall for Mike Graham. Mike was/is such a prick that I don't know quite how you handle it... but you've somehow got to get across to him that he's fucked unless he "merges" with JCP. I don't know what you can give him, or how much to buy him out. It wouldn't be political to simply move in... and in 1984, JCP had enough worries about their own territory: they weren't exactly red hot, Valentine & Piper split, Sarge was gone the year before... Flair was still touring quite a bit... a freaking mess. If you're JCP, do you simply have the balls to pull out of the NWA, name Flair the champ of "whatever", and move into GA and Florida? When Black Saturday, do you lobby Turner hard for either the Sunday slot (that went to Watts) or the Saturday slot (that went to Ole)? Do you get an emergency meeting of the NWA where Crockett twists arms to be given GA (since GCW effectively died as an NWA promotion when Vince bought it) and Florida given Vince's invasions? Or GA first, then work on setting up Florida next? Like you say, they were a bunch of bastard promoters who were doing good business in 1983 and into 1984 and thought Vince would fail. A smart JCP would have hedged against that... John

I know GA was running in Ohio, Michigan, West Virginia, & Western PA. Just don't think they were running very well in those cities. Given the choice of trying to run in Ohio head to head with Vince, or trying to take over Florida after Dusty joined JCP... I'd try to take Florida. If you do well enough in it, you might block Vince from getting over there. Ohio... I don't think there was anyway that you've ever be able to block Vince from linking up between WWF Base and the AWA Territory. Michagan was also something he was going to take. The only part of the GA Territory that was worth the immediate focus was where GA had a history of good success: GA. John

Dave probably had Shawn ahead of Bret in the 1990 Yearbooks. May have in 1989 as well. Shawn is Dave's type of worker. Bret... really isn't. He has said lots of nice things about Bret's work over the years, so it's not that Dave doesn't think he's a great worker. Just that he's pretty consistently rated Shawn higher. John

They did very well in Philly and Baltimore, and an inconsistent-well in Chicago (in the sense of not as consistently well as Philly). I had those three cities in mind when writing: And that they were limited. Core was the Carolinas and VA, which is a pretty small core. They did do strong business, but it was... small in geography and population. By Carveouts, I mean a territory where the promotion is dead or in deep shit. California was a Carveout for the WWE: dead territories in NoCal and SoCal. There is no opposition going in, and so the WWF was simply able to carveout a new territory for themselves *if* they had product that could draw people. Hogan. Carveouts were limited to GA and FL, which were dying. Watts, Lawler/Jarrett/Von Erichs weren't going to merge, and weren't dead yet. If they got strong in the Core and were able to get strong on the Carveouts of FL and GA, they then would have a strong base to opperate. To me the key would have been firming up Florida into as much of Crockett Country as Atlanta eventually became, so that Vince and Hogan would bomb and quickly withdraw. That's a major, huge, big "if". Florida was so valuable to Vince that he probably would have kept trying. But to be a sustain, strong #2, I tend to think taking and holding Florida before Vince would be key to JCP. Then it's the expand. The issues with JCP is that they expanded everywhere, didn't do it very organized, and cost a lot of money. Running monthly / near monthly in Los Angeles was a bad idea. They shoud have had the 90s WWF plan of hitting big cities like Los Angeles four or so times a year. I think for Crockett, I would keep it down to 2-3, but very well planned out "Western Swings". Instead of expanding everywhere, I would have been more focused on moving slightly up the coast: test Philly, test Baltimore, test DC. If you do well, add them to the cycle of VA and NC. You're not traveling all over the country, having no shows, running up bills, etc. I don't think NY was an option since Vince had MSG, the Meadowlands, and Nassau. I don't think I'd even worry too much about Boston. Don't know if it would have been sustainable. We talked in another thread that Mania III was a game changer among game changers. JCP's only hope would have been to reach all this (especially capturing Florida) prior to Mania III. John

Looking at it another way, here's JCP pre-expansion: 5,880,095 - North Carolina (#10) 5,346,797 - Virginia (#14) 3,120,729 - South Carolina (#24) Total: 14,347,621 - 6% of the country That's not a terrible base, but... Vince quickly cuts off roads of expansion by taking the Midwest. JCP gets a skin in the game by taking Atlanta onces Ole & Co die: 5,462,982 - Georgia (#13) That's not a bad add. Relative to Vince, it's the same size as Indiana... roughly half the size of IL, OH and MI each... and it would take 4.33 GA's to add up to CA. But not a bad add. Looking at what JCP *should* have done: 9,746,961 - Florida (#7) The problem is it was an NWA territory, and as an NWA promotion they couldn't have invaded it. I don't recall the ownership of Florida at the time when Vince started coming in, but it really is the one where JCP should have cut a deal to take over. Screw the local shows, run JCP TV, and you've got Dusty. The problems are timing. They couldn't take GA until Ole was ready to throw in the towel, and couldn't take FL until they started expanding. But in hindsight, they should have focused a core on: 9,746,961 - Florida (#7) 5,880,095 - North Carolina (#10) 5,462,982 - Georgia (#13) 5,346,797 - Virginia (#14) 3,120,729 - South Carolina (#24) Total: 29,557,564 - 13% of the country Yikes... that's still small. With some of the best avenues of Southern Expanson Cut off: Von Erich Ville 14,225,513 - Texas #(3) Lawler Land 4,591,023 - Tennessee (#17) 3,660,324 - Kentucky (#23) Watts World 4,206,116 - Louisiana (#19) You kind of get the sense of just how Game Over it was if Vince took the Midwest and the West. For one of the NWA territories to shoot the moon it would have to: * kill off several of the other local promotions for smaller amounts of eyeballs * then try to win regions where Vince had already gotten established Both are hard. Vince basically targetted: #1 - the biggest Rival #2 - the biggest Open Territory That first one is pretty fucking ballsy when you think about it, and brillant. Combine the WWF + AWA territories (I haven't even included Denver in these AWA calculations), and you're huge. Then add CA... We bounced around a list of the Metros earlier in the thread. It's really hard to see where a JCP could have (i) first built a stronger core, then (ii) expanded into a new carveout core to build up before (iii) trying to expand into strong WWF cities. Things like having the Von Erichs, Lawler and Watts in decent cities and not exactly wanting to hand over the keys to them... that's a block. Then having GA and FL linger rather than say in mid-1984 quickly being gobbled up into JCP... that slowed things as well. Vince & Hulk were good... very good. John

Yeah, the AWA was really an area that I had in mind when writing that. Being able to pull in all those big cities in the Midwest was a huge part of expansion. This was before the Growth of the South, and where pulling in Illinois, Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Wisconsin and Minnesota was huge. Using the 1980 Census Data... WWF Pre-Expansion Base 17,558,165 - New York (#2) 11,864,720 - Pennsylvania (#4) 7,365,011 - New Jersey (#9) 5,737,093 - Massachusetts (#11) 4,216,933 - Maryland (#18) 3,107,564 - Connecticut (#25) 1,125,043 - Maine (#38) 947,154 - Rhode Island (#40) 920,610 - New Hampshire (#42) 638,432 - District of Columbia (--) 594,338 - Delaware (#47) 511,456 - Vermont (#48) Subtotal: 54,586,519 (24%) of the US Midwest Expansion 11,427,409 - Illinois (#5) 10,797,603 - Ohio (#6) 9,746,961 - Florida (#7) 9,262,044 Michigan (#8) 5,490,210 - Indiana (#12) 4,705,642 - Wisconsin (#16) 4,075,970 - Minnesota (#21) Subtotal: 45,758,878 (20%) of the US And let's just ignore all the other places they expanded into in 1984-86 and add just two states where the focused a lot of attention starting right in 1984: Other Key Expansion 23,667,764 - California (#1) 4,916,766 - Missouri (#15) Subtotal: 28,584,530 (13%) of the US Total: 128,929,927 (57%) of the US. Game over. Basically the critical mass for WWF Expansion was: * take the Midwest (while damaging off the local promotion) * take the largely wide open West California was there for the taking, and the had the Hogan led product to do it. The Midwest would be a war, but it was the one key war they were willing to fight to the death. Mizzou had some strategic value in addition to the pure numbers: hurt the NWA at it's heart while also making it easier to take the metros in Iowa, Kansas and Nebraska. Not huge metros, but additional numbers Vince could add to his bigger picture. Of the Top 20, all that was remaining: 14,225,513 - Texas (#3) 9,746,961 - Florida (#7) 5,880,095 - North Carolina (#10) 5,462,982 - Georgia (#13) 5,346,797 - Virginia (#14) 4,591,023 - Tennessee (#17) 4,206,116 - Louisiana (#19) 4,132,353 - Washington (#20) Washington was part of the Western expansion: once you have California, you have a base to run shows on a "swing" up into Washington (#20), Oregon (#30) and across to Colorado (#28), Arizona (#29), Utah (#36) and Nevada (#43). The positive about those six other Western states is that a large chunk of the populations are in one or two major cities. They're relatively easy to promote in for a national promotion. In CO, you can throw your focus on winning Denver. Florida... we had a lot earlier in the thread about Vince & Hulk eventually taking that one. They put a good deal of effort into it, and the local promotion didn't stay strong very long even if it took until 1987 to die. Vince put some effort into Texas, but Dallas was a problem due to the Von Erich-centric nature of the fans. For much of the decade, Vince would eventually turn his attention to winning Houston... which he did. Houston *alone* is as valuable as a lot of states in the contry. NC, GA, VA, TN, LA... some attempts, then tossed in a lot of the towel. WWF Base + Midwest + CA = Victory Adding just the Midwest & CA, Hogan anchored a move from states with a population of 54,586,519 to add states that had a population of 74,343,408, a 136% increase in the size of the WWF. Again, that's not even touching the other states and/or metros they added in the Hogan Era. Stone Cold Who? And that's coming from a big Stone Cold Fan, and someone who historically didn't like Hogan. What Vince and Hogan did was pretty mindnumbing. John

For all the tours that Terry did with All Japan after the "retirement", the last time Terry and Jumbo were in the ring together on TV was the 1984 RWTL: Jumbo & Tenryu vs. Funks. Jumbo was opposite Terry in the 1986, 1987 & 1990 RWTL, but the Jumbo & Tenryu/Yatsu/Taue vs Funks matches were scheduled off TV. "Jumbo didn't want to work as hard as Terry, so he asked for those matches to be off TV." -New Meme John

Christ... I suspect that people in the booking committees said things that could get the company sued. I don't even want to think about the things that Cornette over the years has said that would get him sued if he said them in the office across from mine (VP of IT) and they drifted on out into the hallway. John

Paul was the head booker. Heck, no one on the Booking Committee ever *met* Jesus, and instead booked a promotion around a guy who was already dead. Think of it: imagine Russo running a promotion based on Bruno... *now*. Us not even having Bruno matches to watch on tape, and only being able to talk about his matches. Wait... it gets better: Creative never even saw any of those matches either, haven't talked to Bruno, and may or may not have even talked to anyone who ever actually saw a Bruno match. They're basing their storylines on second, third, fortieth hand info. And putting Butts In The Seats for people just to talk aout Bruno matches, not actually watch Bruno. Paul and the Booking Committee were fucking geniuses. And lucky Jesus wasn't around so that they could keep all the action to themselves, or have to worry about Jesus wondering why they were building massive promotion up when his own teachings were about moving away from massive promotions and that God was wherever you were? And no... I'm not insulting Jesus there. I just really loath Paul as a douchbag booker. John