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I think in my post I pointed out that we, collectively including here and DVDVR and the folks who did the SC poll, really don't have much of a pot to piss in relative to the Consensus. Bix pointed to 50 folks voting on the DVDVR 80s NJPW set. If we had a vote of WON/Fig-4 subs who have watched some NJPW in the 80s, do anyone think the Top 10 would look remotely close to that? We've changed / enhance / enlarged our own opinions on a fair number of wrestlers. We really aren't delusional enough to think we've changed the view of the Masses yet, right? That I or you or the Phils or Bix or any of the rest of us gets some in this circle of ours to rethink (or even think for the first time) about workers is a good thing. Some long term positive, and there are always new fans like say Ditch that come along after some of that thinking / rethinking has happened or is going on. But still... I wouldn't over pimp the impact so far. I suspect that those of you who have argued work over on say the Board get a sense that it's just a dent that's been made, if that. Or try on a place like WC. John

Dave doesn't limit "Great Worker" to just the three guys at the top. He thought Ultimo was a great worker. That he was a "star" (whatever the hell that means) in three different countries. Not in the sense of a Draw, but a success to some degree. That he had "impact" and the trainer bonus, even if they are relatively modest. I'm not vouching for thinking he's a HOF. I didn't vote for him. John

Please don't ask me to rewatched the Stairway to Hell match... please don't make it. I hated it at the time... lord I don't want to watch any of that shit again... Aw christ... *going into ECW watching and writing mode... apologize in advance if this offends anyone...* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSQ1SBenJ_0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cbxr-xXHigk Aw... lovely ECW Arena, how I've missed you so... Standard pre-match bullshit, though I'm missing the best part of a Sandman Match: the entrance. Standard early ladder bullshit killing a minute before our first COOL SPOT~! So we see Sandman having to lay there with Fonzie draping the chair across his back waiting for Sabu to legdrop him while Sabu goes walkabout briefly. When Sabu again goes walkabout rather than going for the cover, Sandman magically is able to kick out at a zero count when Sabu finally covers him. Right after the kick out at zero he has to lay under the ladder waiting for Sabu to go up to the top for a chair legdrop, and is so "out of it" that not only does he not move, but he then very noticably turns onto his side and shifts the ladder towards Sabu so that Sabu hits the move in the way that Sandman wants it... then kicks out at one. Wait, then he is so out of it that he casually rolls out of the ring, stands up next to the apron so that Sabu can baseball slide him over the baricade into the crowd. Okay, so the chair springboard thingy is a COOL MOVE~! Hmm... unprotected chairshot to the head. I hated those then, and watching this reminds me how much I still hate them. Pretty aimless crowd brawling... I'm reminded of how annoying ECW Fans were. Yeah... really aimless brawling up onto a stage, where there is a Magic Table hidden for Sabu to uncover. This is live a bad video game where Super Sabu Brother has to find the Mushrooms Tables to make him stronger. (Note: this would be in addition to all the tables around the ring in this match). Sabu has to ever-so-gingerly put the sloppy fat Sandman on the table while he climbs higher. Sandman, who a second earlier had been staggering aimlessly around the stage, is forced to lay down on the table after an extremely light kick to the stomach so that Sabu could go climbing higher. Now there happened to be a wall right there that Sabu could have bounced Sandman's head off to give Sandman a reason/excuse for laying there on the table waiting to get splashed rather than say... Rolling The Motherfucker Off The Table! What's kind of funny is that Sandman sits up after the spot in *less time* than it would have taken him to Roll Off The Fucking Table! But it's a COOL SPOT, so fuck it. More aimless brawling in the crowd... Sabu's brawling offense is really freaking light... wait... what's this... Sandman is OKAY!!! Couldn't roll off the table (because it would screw up a COOL SPOT~!), but could comeback after eating some of those lightweight punches and kicks from Sabu. Okay... More aimless brawling, and Sabu get the upper hand... no Sandman has the upper hand... hell, I'm having a tough time of keeping track as they can't figure it out. Oh wait, Sabu goes over to the barricade and Sandman goes back in the ring... this is the ladder suplexy toss into the crowd spot... YES~! Called that motherfucker. And Sandman's jawjacker ladder spot? COOL SPOT!!!! *reaching for my diet pepsi knowing that I'm needing repeated jolts of caffine to keep me up through this fucker* Sabu is selling that FUCK out of it. I wonder if this is going to keep him from doing a half dozen planned COOL SPOTS off the ladder and through all those tables? Sabu gets suplexed / thrown / heaved onto... or kind of more slopped between two tables. It's cool because he knows that Sandman was really suppose to heave him onto his stomach so that the coming Cool Spot would be to his back, so Sabu just slides around to drape himself across the table to give Sandman his back... while I'm suppose to ignore that if Sabu is in good enough shape to adjust his position for the Cool Spot that he's also is good enough shape to... you know... Get The Motherfucker Off The Table! I wish they had ECW while I was in college. This shit would have been awesome while drunk / high / stoned / zonked out of my fucking mind. That might be the reason I hated ECW in the mid-90s: I'd been sober for too long. So after the Cool Spot, Sandman kind of aimlessly wander away to... well... who the fuck knows. Then he wanders back past Sabu, who has to sell something-or-other while looking right at Sandman so that Sandman has enough time to set the table for the next Cool Spot before... well, it's a Magical Mushroom Table! Super Sabu Brother is magical better... except Sandman cuts him off... by throwing the other table into him (that must be a Bad Mushroom Table that sucks the strength out of Super Sabu), then a fist... which sends Sabu down to a kneeling position where he can watch Sandman set up the ladder for the other part of the coming Cool Spot... since Sabu is watching of course he comes over to pearl harbor Sandman... no, he walks right into it! And gets put on the ladded so that Sandman can do the Cool Spot onto it... while killing himself on table. Don't ask me... maybe Sandman thought the table would help break his fall rather than say not having it there to kill himself on. Cut him some slack... he's a drunk wrestler... it's complicated to think all this shit through. Sabu thinks he's Arn Andersen dangling down through the ladder. They roll back in the ring... you have to love Fonzie helping out Sabu by rolling the ladder back into the ring... wait... Fonzie rolls it right to FUCKING SANDMAN! while Sabu is down on the mat selling. Are you fucking kidding me? Okay... cut Fonzie some slack... he's a drunk manager who knows that there must be some Cool Spot coming up and they'll need the ladded in the ring. Sandman sets up the ladder for... something... well... I guess just to kill enough time for Sabu to bound up like he's Kurt Motherfucking Angle!!!! Sabu sells a headbutt, but that's Sabu "fake selling" again. He has a plan... 1. Let Sandman get all the way up the ladder 2. Get the barbed wire shit that's hanging over the ring 3. Then pitch Sandman off the ladder for a COOL SPOT!!! through the tables outside the ring!!! Woo-Hoo~! Motherfucking choreographed-spot-o-rama~! Sabu sets the chair for a chair dive... but sees something down in the floor that catches his eye... tells Sandman to get upright so that he can eat the spot and tells Fonzie to drag away parts of the broken table... this has such a organic, naturalist feel to it... this is like Steamboat and Flair just winging this shit knowning what the other is going to do... FUCK ME!!! Sabu runs the ropes to do the chair dive... but stops on the way to the chair because he's distracted the barbed wire that his magically appeared in the corner of the ring. I literally have to rewind to see how the barbed wire ended up in the corner... FUCK ME!!! The genuis that is Sandman: while he was suppose to be "surprised" by Sabu knocking him off the ladder, he was able to smoothly drop / heave the barbed wire into the ring rather than you know... not realize he was falling until too late and not let go off barbed wire until it would have fallen to the floor... so... Thank you for leaving it in the ring for Sabu to use on you in the next cool spot. Woo-Hoo~! Motherfucking choreographed-spot-o-rama~! Which of course Sabu almost forgot about, but remembered just in time to stop his dive and go get it. Er... of course this means that Sandman was in position to catch Sabu when Sabu came off the ropes the first time, and now has had to stand there with his thumb up his ass while Sabu went over to get the barbed wire, then wait for Saby to hold it up to the crowd so that ECW Fans could get a woody like when Jenna Jameson starts pulling down the zipper of her costar's pants... okay... I better not go with a porn analogy... so perhaps Sandman is going to pull a Kawada on Johnny Ace here: "Look asshole... if you're too slow in hitting the spot and hang me out to dry stand around waiting for you to hit it, I'm going to sidestep that slow shit and kick you really fucking hard for almost making me look like an idiot." Hmmm... there goes Sabu... Sandwada! Sandwada! Sandawda! Okay, the first thing in this clusterfuck that I've liked. ECW Fan is not happy, though. Sabu broke... something... it might be his chin on this one... Sandman is taking For Fucking Ever to set up whatever the hell he is setting up, and the great ECW Production is doing a great job of covering for it by keeping the shot on Sabu selling... which is getting pretty boring right about now. We get a brief shot of Sandman, who seems to be trying to do something with the barbed wire, but can't quite figure it out... PAUL E: "Cut to Sabu!!! Cut to Sabu!!!" Literally more than a minute has passed since Sandman sidestepped the chair dive and jerked around with the barbed wire. What is that common ECW garbage clusterfuck-o-rama complained? Take forever to set up spots? Bingo. So as not to expose how long this is taking, Sabu does roll back in to force Sandman to elbow drop him to give Sandman more time with his handywork. That out of the way, Sandman grabs another stand of barbed wire and goes back to work... Sabu gets back up to get wacked again, after which Sandman goes to get another strand... and Sabu has had enough of this... almost Two Minutes since the sidestepped chair dive. I'm not shitting: 1:52 of clock time. Just think of it this way: How many times could Sandman have chairshotted Sabu in 1:52? How many times could he have rubbed the barbed wire across Sabu's forehead and arms and back *outside* the run in 1:52? Instead, he jerks off with the barbed wire in the corner, allowing Sabu enough time to shove him into it... and then for Sabu to Bounce A Chair Right Off His Motherfucking Head~! As Sandman is selling in the corner with his back to the barbed wire, Sabu comes over to... I don't know what the fuck he's doing other than just grabbing his hair since he doesn't get close enough to bite him. Hair pulling is enough for Sandman: he senses he isn't bleeding enough from the prior blading, so as Sabu wanders off from the Hair Pull Of Doom, Sandman gigs the fuck out of himself again. Sabu with that weak ass clubbering to give Sandman more chances to dig the blade into his forehead... oh boy, I'm loving this shit... *refills my cup with diet pepsi because I've been throwing them back* There's a "Ric Flair gives Ricky Morton a training bra" video over in the corner of Youtube... it's got to be better than this shit... no... I have to stick through this... Sabu notices Sandman isn't bleeding enough, so he chokes him again... From the best spot of the match (Sandwada side stepping Sabu's chair dive that took forever to set) this match has gone into the total fucking crapper. Wait... it was in the crapper before that. The sidestep was like the dump backflowing up into the toilet before these two took the plunger out to try to force that turd back down into the sewer, where it's now on its way to the water treatment facility. But I disgress... Barbed wire neck collar for Sandman followed by one of the worst sets for the Tree Of Woe, as Sandman is busting his upside down chunky ass to help Sabu set it up and avoid getting dropped on his fucking head. Chair placed on face... chair set up to leap off... COOL SPOT~! We're now just past three minutes since the sidestepped chairspot and after going nowhere, we're back to the usual stuff. Work to the finish? Sabu is selling the broken jaw (or whatever the fuck it is), because we all know how damaging a chair diving drop kick to Sandman's chair covered face is to SABU'S JAW! Okay... so Sabu remembered about his jaw after forgetting about it for the past two minutes. Give him an 1/8th of a snowflake. It's rather funny to see how EASY Sandman rolls off of the Tree of Woe while Sabu is down selling the jaw... it's almost like... you know... he could have... maybe... I don't know... gotten out of the Tree before Sabu hit the move. Tree of Woe 101: don't get off the Tree unless you're opponent is suppose to miss the move. Tree of Woe 201: don't get off the Tree until the Ref or your Opponent help you off of it. For Fucks Sake... these idiots can't even get the Tree right? Oh, I see it... Sandman needed to set himself up for the next spot. He literally rolls past the selling Sabu to set himself standing in the corner where the barbed wire is on the turnbuckle, gives Sabu time to reset the chair... eats one of those weak ass Sabu kicks so he can stand in the corner... and have Sabu airball a chair dive into the corner onto the barbed wire. Welcome to My Turn, Your Turn Garbage Wrestling. You know Sabu... you could have taken that chair and simply Plonked Sandman Right In The Motherfucking Skull... and then set it down for the chair dive. Do I have to be as stupid as Sandman and Sabu to enjoy this shit? Well, Sandman is bleeding like a stuck pig, and got some barbed wire of his own, and there's the cane for a shot... and for some reason Sandman thinks that More Barbed Wire is needed in the corner that already has at least two big strands in it. I'm really glad I'm rewatching this at work with the sound off or I'd have to listen to Joey The Bump explain this nonsense to me. Fonzie is taping up the jaw... christ, I was joking about the broken jaw, but maybe this is the one where Sabu actually broke it (or pretended to break it in that great Intentionally Blowing Spots psychology of his). I'm so happy I brained dumped all the old ECW Timeline Factoids out of my head long ago... this stuff is almost fresh again... hmmm.. The match has come to a standstill again while this is going on... Funny, Sabu is A-O-Kay as we get a reversal on the whip into the barbed wire corner, with Sandman taking a floppy back bump into it. Don't ask me to explain how Sabu is magically better immediately after taking the airball bump into the barbed wire and then needed to get his jaw taped up. The only "psychology" to it is this: "Sabu has a move to hit" Arbian Moonsault, which is so off target that it kind of hits the side of Sandman's legs. Sandman is a King! selling the legs, and Sabu goes right to work on them by... Putting The Barbed Wire Collar back around Sandman's neck and hitting a springboard legdrop to Sandman's chest... well... sort of to his chest... maybe glances off it. Since Sabu won't help him get positioned, and Sandman knows another spot is coming, Sandman has to roll over off his back and make a focused crawl over in the direction where the Sabu Spot is probably coming from, then turn into the proper position so that Sabu can hit the chair legdrop off the top rope. It's as if Sabu just doesn't give a fuck about trying to make it look plausible: SABU: "I'm going to do some shit... it's your job to get over to where you need to be. Who gives a shit if it doesn't make sense... you're on your own to get there." Wait... WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?! After eating the chair legdrop (and I mean Sandman ate the chair right in the fucking side of the skull and Sabu *did not* miss it which is totally clear when you're watching with the sound off), Sandman simply gets up, has the barbed wire collar around his neck/head (admittedly a great visual) and the cane in his hand, cane's Sabu ones in the head... and gets the three count. Seriously? Really? You're fucking kidding me? As I'm thinking back on it, when was the last time the ladder was involved in the match? Just sort of farted out of the matches after the Big Bump To The Floor by Sandman, which was following by the Side Stepped Chair Dive. My lord... what a stunningly horrid match. Sorry for the tone, ECW brings that out in me. So he had an excuse for N2R 97 sucking. What was the excuse for this one being laughably bad? Like I said on the last page, when the day comes that I rewatch 90s ECW and think that Sabu was a great worker is the day that I kindly invite people to shoot me. Since this was offered up as an example of Great Sabu, I'm pretty confident that I won't have to take out a contract on myself. This is 100% the same old Sabu that I remember. John

Just to clear up a little: it doesn't appear that *Dave* was saying that Dragon was the best worker in the world in the second half of 1996. It was "people in that company", i.e. the company that Dragon worked for, which always skews people's viewpoints. Even if it was Tenay saying it, that remains a skewed viewpoint. Dave didn't think Dragon was the best worker in the world at that point. Excluding women such as Toyota (who Dave still was very high on at the end of 1996), Dave thought Misawa was the best worker in the world, with Kawada and Kobashi in that same class... and *no* male worker at that level. There was a group below them such as Benoit, Liger and Eddy. Dragon was in that group by the end of 1996, but there was a bit more comfort level with the other three because there was years of matches to ppint at while Dragon might be on a hot streak where he dialed into a great collection of oppopents. We use to talk about who would challenege those three for the best in the world, with guys like Ohtani and Jun. Ohtani was very much in that group with Benoit, Liger and Eddy, while Jun had no singles matches that you could really hang a hat on yet to really elevate him into that group. "He might be..." but not just yet when all it was based on were the great tags. There were guys like Rey and Psicosis that he didn't know quite where they fit in. Up there, he really loved them, but did he think they were as great as Benoit when it came down to it given the same opportunity of quality opponents? Not quite yet. Juv was up there early in 1996, but the second half of 1996 didn't have much for him to hang his hat on. But that's the level that Dragon was at. How strong did Dave believe that Dragon was on the second tier? Look up his rating of Dragon-Ohtani, which is a pretty reasonable pick of Dragon's best match in the second half of 1996 (frankly the entire year). Dave saw it live, and like most any of us, live always add something to the snowflakes. Dave really, really, really liked that match. I watched a lot of great matches with him, including at least one he rated ***** and a surprising number he rated ****3/4... almost all of which he rates 1/4* to 3/4* higher than me, FWIW. Anyway, after the match backstage in the "press room" of Sumo Hall, a number of the Japanese media was calling it the best match in Tokyo to that point of the year. Dave was rather strongly disagreeing, pointing to Misawa & Akiyama vs Williams & Ace. Misawa & Akiyama vs. Williams & Ace ***** Dragon vs. Otani ****3/4 One was live, the other was Memorex. It's highly likely that if Dave had been in Budokan for the tag match, and at home for the Dragon-Ohtani, it would have been: Misawa & Akiyama vs. Williams & Ace *****+++ ("Best match I've ever seen live!") Dragon vs. Otani ****1/2 I'd also add that the window in which he thought Dragon was in the class of Benoit, Liger and Eddy was pretty narrow. That's another difference: there were times when Dave thought Liger was the best worker in the world during say 1989-91. There probably were times as AJPW fell off that Dave thought Benoit was the best worker. I zoned out of his coverage when Eddy was at his peak in the WWE, so others would have to fill in how highly Dave rated Eddy at that point and if there ever was a "Eddy might be the best worker in the world" from him. Dragon... never got there because his "peak" lined up with the AJPW 3 at their peak. And there was male worker in the 1993-98 range that he thought was at their level. Whenever the question popped up in his mind, another Budokan main event would pop up and rconfirm what he thought. So yeah... "some people" in WCW whose opinions on work Dave at the time didn't value as much as *his own* since he watched a hell of a lot more than any of those guys. John

I actually doubt it. As I think a few pointed out above, what we'll see is variations on themes that people have made since the 80s: Ric having lots of great matches with a wide variety of wrestlers many of who aren't good and a fair number of which fall into the "That's the best match I've ever seen Wrestler X have!" I think a fair number of comments were made like that when the Watts set came out, which was the last time Flair's stock rose ten-fold... to the exact same level everyone rated him at in the 80s and 90s. GWE poll notwithstanding since it was a small niche of fans, there really hasn't been anypoint in the past 25 years when Flair hasn't been thought of by the Hardcore Consensus as the greatest worker of all-time. Those of us who think we've changed that consensus are whistling dixie. John

Ric is the Consensus Greatest Wrestler Of All-Time, in addition to being the Consensus Greatest Wrestler Of The 80s. It's impossible for his stock to rise ten-fold unless the set makes people think he walks on water, turns water to wine, and feeds the multitudes. Don't think Ric is the Consensus? Try arguing it with Meltzer sometime. As heady as we think are small circle is, Dave and folks who read he and Bryan are still the consensus. John

And Mooneyham still buys whatever bullshit Ric slings, and Dave has deniability since he's just passing along what Mooneyham "reported". Ric the con man. John

This is so fucking stupid. John

Choshu was the booker/boss. Hase was one of several people who were involved in the booking, including people like Liger handling the junior division. Hase was done in New Japan in the booking side when he became a politician, which was in the first half of 1995. I'm scratching my head over what aspects of New Japan's strong run under Choshu that Hase was personally responsible. Did Hase make the decision to push Hashimoto as the top guy out of the Three Musketeers? No. That was Choshu. It was nakedly obvious back to the 1989 Dome show, that US hardcores never grasped that until some point in 1994... and frankly even then most of them didn't really get it until probably 1995 or 1996. Did Hase make the decision to push the Three Musketeers? Of course not. That was Choshu's decision to push the next generation rather than hog the top spots like Inoki did before him. It was Choshu who personally put all of them over to help make them stars, which is something that Inoki never did. Is anyone delusional enough to think that Hase came up with that idea rather than Choshu? Did Hase make the decision to run Dome shows? Don't be silly. Did Hase make the decision to run the NJPW vs Tenryu/WAR feud? Are you hitting the bong? Choshu had the relationship with Tenryu going back to New Japan. It was Choshu who personally put over Tenryu on New Japan's biggest show of the year rather than pin him and blow off the feud. Did Hase make the decision to run the NJPW vs UWFi feud? Really? The "call" didn't happen until after Hase was elected. That was Choshu's baby, as was it his not to spend a year with it, and instead cash in quick and then get back to focusing on New Japan business. One can debate whether that was the wisest decisions on leaving money on the table, but NJPW did huge business in 1996-97 even after UWFi was out the door. I honestly have never seen a single huge critical thing about New Japan's business in the 90s that was credited to Hase. Instead, Hase was closer to Ed Farrera to Choshu's McMahon/Russo. The big picture was Choshu's. There never was at the time any indication otherwise, and there hasn't been any indication since. Instead, we get this fuzzy "Hase was co-booker". I also scratch my head at the "contemporaries" part. I didn't know that Dave handed out a lot of ballots to Mutoh, Chono, Kawada, Misawa (when he was alive), Kobashi, Taue, Jun, Hash (when he was alive), Koshinaka, etc. I have to say, it wouldn't mean shit to me if Sting voted for Hase: he wasn't really a true contemporary of Hase's, nor saw as much of his work as the rest of us. That's coming from someone who always has been rather fond of Hase's work. I just think that whole section was a lot of nonsense on Dave's part. John

Where do the Road Warriors fit into the #1, #2 or #3? I always thought the argument was that the Warriors were important historically, even if a lot of it was negative. Well... at least that was the argument in 1996. John

It's a nice run. Tenzan, Hirata and Kosh matches are very entertaining. The Hawk match is a bit painful. I'm not a fan of the Takada matches. The problem with Mutoh is that the 8/92 - 9/93 run largely blows. His later runs... my recollection is that everything in it had a snowflake or more too much sprinkled on it. With Hash, there are some dogs like the match with Flair (about 99.99% because Flair was a shitty opponent). Across the three runs there were a slew of entertaining matches, some really quite good. Hash basically felt like The Man from some point in 1994 (probably when he clocked the Old Farts in a row) until 8/98 with the brief 8/95 - 1/96 where Mutoh had a cup of coffee feeling like the man. Mutoh had a nice run, but it pretty much got swallowed up in Hash's 4.5 years of looking like the top guy in the promotion... while also putting on good matches. John

I saw Sabu work indy back then: some of it live like an enjoyable match where Terry Funk ended up under a car outside, some of it on video back when Sabu was The Next Big Thing. Can't count the number of times I saw him live... a fair number of the times he was out here in Los Angeles in the era because you were suppose to go see him. Last time I watched one of those matches on tape (probably the famed Waltman match), it kind of didn't to a lot for me. :/ I think the test of time with me passed not long into ECW. In general, I really get bored-hate for barbed wire matches right around the time of watching my first one in 1986: Fans & Co. vs Sheep & Co. Just never did a thing for me, and even guys like Terry and Sabu getting extra nutty in them... it just bores the shit out of me. If I happen to watch that one and the test of time makes me love it, I truly would be happy to get capped. On the Sabu-Sandman, probably not likely that someone that was this grump in the Torch about it at the time would find it a lot more watchable 14 years later: God was I bitchy there... and that's probably the least bitchy part about the whole piece. John

I just have to say that when the day comes that I rewatch 90s ECW and think that Sabu was a great worker is the day that I kindly invite people to shoot me. John

That's a slightly different issue that I think we all agree on: It's fucking batshit crazy that a 37 year old Edge would even be on the ballot. It's a known flaw in eligibility that Dave simply refuses to fix. John

He was on fire. There also were a limited number of arenas that there is 10K+ data on. MSG is well covered. It also was large, with some margin of error in getting to 10K The Olympic out here in LA was technically a shade under 10K. There might be worked and/or "standing room only" 10K+ crowds. But when you're right around 10K for a territory's top building, you basically have to sell it out to get on the list. So which Buddy was only active for a short period, he was red hot in the right set of buildings to get it done. John

If a vote on WWE 00s was conducted in 2011, Edge would not do as well as Fujiwara did in the DVDVR 80s NJPW Poll. On the other hand, I think we'd all agree that if a 80s NJPW Poll was conducted in 1991, Fujiwara wouldn't do remotely as well. In addition, the majority of his high ranking matches (think Usual Suspect) would see the credit be given to other people in the matches (think Usual Suspects and/or Hardcore Favorites). I'm not saying that in 2031 that a poll of the hardcore intelligentsia on WWE 00s Matches is going to think Edge is the greatest thing since sliced bread. But if you compare how Fujiwara and Sayama were viewed in 1991 with how 50 folks in 2011, of which probably less than 10% watched them in the 80s, view them... yeah, anything in possible. It's quite possible that as fan-fucking-tastic and brilliant we are, folks in 2031 will think we're exactly as full-o-shit as a fair number of us think folks in the 80s and early 90s were about Sayama and Fujiwara. So I get the point, and no doubt it's similar to ones that I've a few hundred times while having views different to the Old Consensus. But yeah... it's possible we and the folks who love Mark Henry's work are the ones who will be showing ass and bumping in 20 years. Edge could be viewed as the greatest PPV worker of all time. John

BTW... where is the Edge stuff coming from? Did he talk about his HOF candidacy on WO-4 Live? Or on the boards? If it was in the WON in a HOF preview, I must of overlooked it when skimming. John

Edge had more great matches on TV than Jumbo? Or Kobashi? Kawada? Misawa? Er... John

It would have made for a better board post so that someone could follow up and ask Dave (i) for examples, and (ii) what exactly he was saying. John

Triple Crown: Misawa IWGP: Hashimoto John

Yep. Good stuff.

Well... there really wasn't anything in the piece that is "fresh". The exception would be Dave's love of Trip as a great technical worker. I couldn't do justice to paraphrasing Dave, so I'll leave it to someone like Rovert to give it a go. John

The second WON of the week has Dave doing was almost a message board style post responding to Triple H's comments in the WWE Mag. Literally old school online of quoting text and then responding to it. John

That makes logic... except Cena and the other faces didn't have issues with Trip or walk out on him on Monday. Wasn't Punk online essentially sucking Trip's dick to put him over? Need to redo the logic to make Trip the babyface in all this. John

The NBA has largely pushed to get NBA TV onto basic / digital basic equivs. They dropped their fee to Time Warner to get it done, and moved off the Sports tiers at Comcast and DirecTV and many other carriers. The Big 10 Network has done the same thing: pushing carriers to be on basic on Big 10 Markets. When Nebraska joined, they worked with the carriers in Nebraska to transition off the Sports Tiers and onto basic / digital basic. Pac 12 Net and the Pac 12 Regional Networks will do the same thing. The move is to get away from being on Tiers. The content providers all want to be on basic because they believe (rightly) that $0.08 to $0.20 for All Households is greater than $0.50 to $1.00 for the far smaller number of Specialty Tier Subscribers. Especially as people look at their raising bills and start dumping stuff they don't watch much. I recently dumped my HBO/Showtime/Skinemax tier because I just wasn't watching much of it. If there's an HBO series that I like, I can always by the season DVD's on discount for less than I'm paying annually for the tier. I pitched a few other useless tiers that I got when subbing to a package a while back: just didn't get any value out of them when the special pricing of the package ran out. John