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Taking this in terms of no murder/suicide happening... Totally disagree with this. Benoit got in the HOF in 2003 after being in Dave's eye a great worker non-stop (sans a few injuries) from 1990-2003. Dave thought he was a much better version of Dynamite Kid, who to this day Dave would wax on about (think about his Tiger arguments). 14+ years as someone that Dave thought was pretty constantly a Top 10 worker? Total and complete lock that Dave would strongly advocate for someone like that got on the ballot this year. Complete slam dunk. I think the reason we might not get that in Dave's writting right now is that there *isn't* anyone who in Dave's mind has been one of the 10 best in the world for the past 14+ straight years. Perhaps Rey is close, but I tend to think there were stretches where Rey was gone for a long stretch or not looking especially strong to Dave where he would have dropped out (and also when the competition for the top 10 in his mind was a little tougher). If KENTA is a Top 10 worker for Dave for 14+ straight years, then sure... I could see him moving up to th lock category for Dave. But does anyone get the vibe from Dave has written that he thinks that? Though maybe he started thinking Kenta was Top 10 in 2003, he's always been up there since and is closing in on a decade next year. Anyone get that sense? Granted, I don't think you need to hit a decade for Dave to push you hard for your work. See Hase. That really wasn't that long ago: 2006. John

This is true. Doc being on the ballot at least another year will probably help keep him away. Though one does wonder if Doc shot his wad last year and slips into a Dick Murdoch type of roll. I'm not even sure his turns in NJPW in 2004 and NOAH in 2005 were all that big of successes relative to what the promotions were doing and could do. Luck of the draw going against Kobashi, while also have Misawa-Kawada redux "above" it on the card. Like I said, I wouldn't be surprised if he goes in eventually. John

I like the Hardys analogy. John

Dogs can sniff through coffee. As far as whether the other person was charged, it wouldn't be surprising that he was. They probably just handed jurisdiction back to someone in Florida. That person probably pled out fast. John

I tend to think that's an excuse. The WWE could have launched non-HD. John

It's not hindsight. I suspect there are folks here who have heard me run this point into the ground for a decade. We were talking about it back when the XFL was pissing money away. Set aside the big boys of the NFL Network, MLB and NBA. Think even more niche: Golf Channel: January 1995 Speed: January 1996 Fox Soccer Channel: November 1997 TVG Network: July 1999 Horse Racing TV: January 2003 GolTV: February 2003 Tennis Channel: May 2003 By 2003 with the Tennis Channel it should have been obvious, though you'd think with a Horse Racing channel popping up in 1999 that it would have been popping into the WWF's head. That's not even getting into other non-sports niche channels that didn't have a pot to piss in. The WWF in 2000 was pulling in this: 6.4 3-Jan-00 6.8 10-Jan-00 6.0 17-Jan-00 6.7 24-Jan-00 6.6 31-Jan-00 6.5 7-Feb-00 4.4 14-Feb-00 5.9 21-Feb-00 6.5 28-Feb-00 6.4 6-Mar-00 6.3 13-Mar-00 6.2 20-Mar-00 6.6 27-Mar-00 That's just the first quarter of the year. That was the time to leverage, rather tha farting around with the XFL. Then again, I think a lot of people at the time bought into the bullshit that the WWF could make a go of it with the XFL. Those were some pretty funny discussions/debates/arguments back when it was going on. John

http://stuntgranny.com/2011/09/08/jeff-har...e-scented-roses John

Maybe it's the Fuyuki match that I'm thinking about. Flipped the days of Hase-Muto / Hase-Tenryu, with Hase putting over Tenryu first before jobbing out to Muto and Hash in the balance the big series. John

I don't think Dave is handing out ballots left and right to "fans", and won't believe it until he creates a "fan" category of voters and we see those numbers go through the roof. Unless those UK folks are in the business, I wouldn't worry about it. Kenta and Cima may get on the ballot. They aren't going to get 60%. I don't recall "affirmative action" campaigns helping Shawn get in. Suspect it was more of Dave handing out more and more ballots over time, especially to people in the business who thought highly of Shawn. The non-Shawn voters became smaller and smaller. That's not likely to impact puroresu. Unless Dave hands out a lot of ballots to guys like Danielsen and Hero who for some reason think Kenta is a HOFer. Agree on that. Sasaki has Domes and Matt's laundry list of 10K+ cards that he headlined. That over time is going to sway people who don't know the context of most of that "drawing power". And he does have a lot of hardware, the title in all three promotions, and 7 total reigns. It will be interesting to see if anyone notices that for all three it was in periods of decline, and at least in New Japan's case one could point to his early reigns as the period where the declines started. Perhaps not the cause, but not a help... and really more of a deviding line from the nearly four years of Hashimoto dominance where business was very robust to the decline of the late 90s, and decline again in the 00s. Yeah... I expect that to go right over people's heads. I wouldn't at all be surprised if Sasaki goes in, especially if Dave gets behind it. I don't see Dave getting behind Kenta and Cima. John

He got a look: he was in the book. Could pull it off the shelf and point to the page. Lack of knowledge of the AWA had nothing to do with it. Lack of knowledge of his headlining in the WWWF would have had as much to do with it. I keep pointing to AWA guys who got in, and how there were more of them than WWWF guys in the 60s and 70s. You keep ignoring it, which makes me think that not just is the AWA Had Gotten Screwed thing overplayed, but it's a meme that's taking hold that folks don't really want to let go of. I do agree with some of the points you and Kevin make: the AWA has been an under reported, under covered, and under profiled part of the WON through the years. Perhaps some of that is how deaths have broken, with a number of the AWA guys who have died ending up like Bruiser and Stevens where as much of the key parts of their careers happened outside of the AWA as in it. That makes their bios less of a chance for wall-to-wall AWA Stories as say Kerry's was of WCCW. And perhaps when Bock and Verne die, we'll get deeper pieces on the AWA. On the other hand, other than St Louis and New York and the glory days of World Class, what territories have really gotten massive historical coverage through either pieces or obits? World Class is pretty much because of the deaths and the two DVDs. St Louis is because Dave's favorite historian is an obvious mark for St Louis. New York is New York. The AWA hasn't done too bad relative to Los Angeles. Or Florida. Or Georgia. Carolina has some thanks to Wahoo, Flair and some other obits... and because it continued into WCW. But do we know more about the AWA in the 60s or Carolina? Really, what areas can match the core representation that the AWA got into the HOF out of the 60s & 70s? World Class has largely been covered in the 80s. The late 60s and into 70s stuff has only been dealt with in Obits, and even then the coverage of the 60s and 70s was glossy. Memphis, GA and Florida in the 60s and 70s? I missed those pieces, other than when focused on single wrestlers in Obits like Mr. Wrestling. The AWA has gotten the same thing. Stampede has largely been dealt with in Obits like Stu and Owen, and tales of guys passing through. Don't recall how detailed of coverage of Bret's book Dave got, or if he took it as a chance to do a bio of Bret. All in all, the AWA hasn't been short changed relative to those places in the WON. St Lou, WWF and Dead WCCW Guys... Dave has written a shitload on that stuff. On other stuff, not so much On the High Flyers, someone needs to make a High Flyers vs Rock 'n' Roll comp. Not in the sense of one being a better candidate, but in the sense that the High Flyers do or don't have some of the characteristics of an anchor babyface tag team for a large territory. Similar to how one makes a Kawada vs Misawa comp. Kawada wasn't Misawa. You don't have to be Misawa to get into the HOF. But what characteristics of the HOF does Kawada and how to they line up with another wrestler who was in / was going to go in. On Blackwell... I don't know who a good comp would be. One wishes Brody were, but: * Blackwell doesn't have the Japan stuff that folks mark out for * it's a comp argument that's instantly "lost" As in, Brody Fans are so high on Brody and so quickly protective of the legend that you can never compare anyone with him other than Stan and perhaps Vader (which is nice for Brody Fan since their eras don't overlap). It's a waste of a comp discussion when it instantly makes the person you're trying to convince ultra defensive: they'll just tune out with the "don't be silly" response. If it's just about getting Blackwell on the ballot, that frankly is easy. But if folks actually think he warrants being in, you gotta drop the "AWA Has Been Screwed" meme and focus arguments in his favor. John

I didn't vote for Angle. I don't recall ever voting for Ultimo... never was enthused about his candidacy. Don't think I've ever voted for Y2J... and I'm kind of fond of him for some reason. That answer it? Doesn't mean that Dave wouldn't have put him in anyway. On the other hand, if Angle had been "eligible" in 1996 rather than 2004, having "debuted" in 1991 rather than 1999, I would have used it as an argument to set the age requirement higher. And I'm 100% certain in 1996 that I would have won that argument. I would also have been more than willing to compromise it: * Joshi Age Rule * Everyone Else Age Rule Because Joshi was the reason for the low age requirement given the old "retire at 25" and careers peaking in the 20-22ish range. By the time a Joshi star got to 35, you *always* we a decade past their peak and had a reasonable grasp of their careers. At the time... I'm sure Dave would have bought that. Whether I could have gotten it to "45 years old or 25 years active"... I don't know. Perhaps. Somewhere I have a spreadsheet buried where I looked at the initial class and the folks who got in the first few years after that to see when they'd hit eligibility. I was generally looking for guys that Dave would have been adament needed to be in "right now" and see if there was a threshold were 40/20 would have been needed to satisfy him, or 45/25 would have worked. I was pretty persuasive back then, and if given an hour or two on that trip to put together a chart for him, I'd hazzard a guess that we'd see the same thing and agree. Especially if Joshi was split off as it's own beast, which would have been very easy. Puroresu is largely dead, even in US circles. I'm sure there are people like Alan who will pimp him. But older voters aren't really going to give a shit, and I have doubts that Dave is going to advocate him. 60% isn't easy to get, especially as a non-main eventer for a declining company. Taue is a different beast, and I'm don't really think it's worth the headache of linking them. I posted something on that earlier... probably even in this thread, with a chart of the Workers Of The Year award winners. Suspect I said something to the effect "of course he's going to go in". If someone is gulible enough to think he's not going in, bet him $100. Lock. Probably was after he won that award for the 3rd straight time. John

Miller wasn't even an "AWA Guy". He wrestled all over the place, and drew all over the place. Big headliner against Bruno. Neither Dave, nor I, knew a shitload about him. Not a guy I had studied. Think it was the AWA? Explain Carpentier not going in. It was the same reason, which I copped to at the time. Didn't know enough about him. Ed got corrected the next year, as did Longson. Miller didn't have Yohe or others coming out of the woodwork to advocate for him. Ed and Longson did... instantly. Miller just flew under the radar, similar to how Schmidt from the 50s did. By the time Dave started handing out ballots, it was too late to *easily* correct errors like that. Even an error like Backlund was damn near impossible to correct. If you think Miller flew under the radar because some of his career was in the AWA, you're ignoring the rest of his career that flew under the radar. MSG against Bruno flew under. And that guys like Mad Dog and Crusher and Bruiser didn't. That's not even getting to guys like Ivan Koloff who were on Dave's radar via MSG and didn't get in. Dave has some holes here and there about the AWA. He has them about a lot of places. It hasn't had a great deal of impact on the HOF. John

I'd have to go back and look at the thread, but I'm 99.99% certain that I said it was closer to Pat Patterson than Mel Phillips. The "firing" and Bryan going out to work indies was all bullshit and he'd be back. In fact, I probably even said that they were likely slipping him some cash to cover his downside to ensure that he wouldn't go hungry and end up in TNA. Just as Pat was sent away, taken care of, and slid back in when things chilled out. It was a bullshit firing. I think we all knew it as soon as it happened. This isn't a "look at me, I'm smart" spot: it was obvious to the degree that we were all talking about it. John

I don't think anyone asked. I do think there was a lot of talk about a 5 year vet going in, and in response to it Dave changed it. He knew it was a goof. But Dave tends to be reactive rather than proactive. I think that if some of us voters talked to Dave starting in later 2003 on into early 2004 that the rule needed to be changed before Angle got on the ballot, Dave probably would have bought into it. I think if one got Bruce on board with it, and a handful of folks who weren't going off on it but rather making the reasonable argument (i.e. wrestler needs at least 10 years of being active to really get a feel for them), Dave probably would have listened. This is one where we should have been proactive, and in a polite way. I think he would have reacted to it in advance. Don't know if I was the right one to lead the charge: might have been a point were we weren't getting along. John

They were in better shape in 2000/2001: * the WWF was at the height of its popularity * the WWF was at the height of it's Wall Street credibility * they were able to con Viacom and NBC into the XFL joint venture They had enough content to launch the channel with their own programming. They really should have gone into the business of leveraging their deal with Viacom to get a channel, or use NBC's desire to partner with them to get a channel. Less channels at the time, and an easier time for a big partner like Viacom or NBC to muscle the providers to carry it. It also would have saved them pissing all the XFL money away, and one could argue that it was around that stretch where the company started to lose its focus/mind. None of those three things above are the case now. I'd add in the point that back in those days the WWF also sold a chunk of the advertising for their progaming. At some point they transitioned that all over to the channels, and instead increased their rights fees. It's something of a catch-22, but if you're running your own network, someone needs to sell those ads. If it's a JV with a Viacom or NBC, you can have their opperations handle that, but you're also giving them a cut to handle it. If it were back in the day when the WWF was selling some of the advertising for Raw and/or SD, it would allow them to roll those into a package with the WWF Network, and have the internal manpower to handle it. I'm not sure of the details of how they're setting up the new Network. Their next 10-Q or 10K might give some insight. But all in all, I'm pretty confident they were in much better shape in 2000/2001 to due this than now. The only positive they have now over it is more content in hand. But they were always going to get more content. John

Does anyone seriously think Kenta is getting in? Good luck with that... John

The AWA didn't have anything to do with Miller not getting in the HOF in 1996 or 1997. Guys who headlined a lot of MSG sellouts didn't make it: Backlund. The MSG book wasn't even out at the time. In fact, I suspect 60s & 70s core AWA is better represented in the 1996-97 classes than core 60s & 70s WWWF. WWWF: Rocca & Buddy (frankly *pre* WWWF anyway), Bruno, Superstar AWA: Verne, Mad Dog, Crusher, Brusier, Bock, Stevens (half AWA, half SanFran), Heenan McMahon Sr is in, but including him above is a bit unfair since we can't include Verne twice. I don't want to say "Dave's AWA Blind Spot" is a meme, but... it's a relative weakness that's probably overplayed. Blackwell is an interesting case. Is he a better candidate than Pedro Morales? I think that's one of the problems we all tend to make. Rather than looking for the "best" or the 2-3 best candidates to advocate, we get lost in smaller arguments. If Blackwell is worthy, it really doesn't matter if he goes in now or in 8 years. Clear the field of the best candidates. I get into this conversation with Yohe all the time. He or other historians will have 5 guys they're advocating, and it gets lost in a discussion with Dave. Focus on one, get others to support it, take it to Dave, and there's a chance he'll listen. People need to get strategic and focused, both in advicating for and advicating against. Say what you will about Shawn getting into the HOF, which I always said was going to happen. What we did with are focus was get people to think about what would have otherwise been a total rubber stamp. Basically what happened to Angle the year after Shawn got in. There really wasn't a strong focused set of voices saying the obvious thing: WTF are we voting for a guy in July 2004 who just "debuted" in November 1999 with the WWF? If enough of us had been sharp enough between 2003 to when the ballots went out, we probably could have easily convinced Dave to change the age limit to 40 at that time, and Angle wouldn't have gone on until 2009. At which point he probably still goes in, but there's at least more of a discussion at that point. John

I think we all said at the time that he wasn't really fired and he'd be back when things chilled out. What MKJ and Dave said wasn't terribly relevant: we all know what was going to happen. John

Dana beside himself... Outstanding. John

Smart move. They were dumb not to go down this road 10 years ago. John

Did they release Bryan today? John

Miller and Schmidt have been championed by a number of historians. I can say with some confidence that if we knew then what we know now, they would have gone in the 1996 Class. Konnan was always going to get back on the ballot. Was on it while semi-active. "Big Star", which means Dave will always toss him back into the mix if he fell below 10%. Saito... probably a push from Japan, or Dave fondly remembering him. There haven't been a lot of fresh, quality Japanese candidates, and Dave does like to keep things from being too stale. Sarge headline in New York/Philly/Boston against a World Champ, and has that fondly remember headlining feud opposite Steamboat & Youngblood. He has some "Big Star" cha-ching that would play to Dave. Jake... just doesn't. For all we fondly remember him in the WWF, in the pecking order he was a way down from the top. He doesn't even have that Orndorff vs Hogan run, which in Paul's case ignores that they had an earlier first run. Jake probably to Dave is a "big name", but he had problems putting anything tangible on it. That said, I doubt it would be hard to get Jake back on the ballot. When he drops dead, you'll see Jake back on. Obits tend to do that. Possibly. But Mayne and Gordman & Goliath have obits that give them some attention. They're also in a different era grouping where fans look to vote for them. *points to picture in Gong 500* "Yes?" "Yes." There wasn't an original ballot. We've talked about this item for years. Nothing new. John

Nick Diaz having "transporation problems" is one of the funnier MMA things in a while. John

It's pretty close on which is worse. The "visual" of Hase bleeding in the first one may look better, to a degree because Hase bleeds onto his chest better than Mutoh and the yellow trunks going red is a great visual. The thing that this one has are the close up where Muta is just pouring off his forehead like a faucet. I think a lot of us had seen blood so often in matches that getting it down onto the chest (ala Flair or Dusty) and trunks (Flair) wasn't totally uncommon on a big juice job, though the 1990 match came across as a Really Big Juice Job. What I don't think was too common was 15:20 of this (which is pretty much the first shot of Muta bleeding after the cut): It isn't even a good VQ of it. But that's not really something we saw too much of back them. Anyway, the proper original term for it was "Hase-Muta Scale" because it was the two of them in two different matches, each bleeding a visual ton in high quality (i.e. VQ) matches where the camera gets shoved right in there. Over time the Hase part of it got left off. And this really was the match where it was coined after because it was the second time around. It would be interesting to find where he first used it after the match. There wasn't a ton of juicing in WCW or the WWF in 1993. AJPW didn't do juice. NJPW didn't do a ton, the two jobs on this card not withstanding. I think I've mentioned before that they had another bloodbath on 9/23/93. Wasn't on TV, but don't know if it was filmed for commercial tape as it was part that big series they ran that week. Just remember seeing pictures in one of the mags about it, and it looked like another total bloodbath. John

MKJ and Dave pretty much crapped on this already as a worked part of the storyline. John