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Where's the facebook "like" feature? John

Herd made Offer X to Steamboat for a long term deal, then sent him Contract Y which was different. I'd have to pull out the WON to remember if it was less money, fewer years, more dates worked, or what. But overall, it was a crappier deal for Steamer. Kind of a matter of principal for him to not take it, even if he didn't have a good alternative at the time. I don't recall the details of where Steamer would have fit into the pay scale in the new contract, and don't know if Herd was thinking along these lines, but one could make the argument: * Steamer was done with his Flair program, and never going back up there again * when Steamer was done with his Lex program, he would move down another slot * if Sting wasn't booked with Flair or Lex, that moves Steamer down another slot So there is a question of how much you pay your #3 or #4 singles wrestler on a One Card Promotion (i.e. they run one crew rather than the 3 that the WWF did at the time). That's before getting into having top face tag teams such as the Road Warriors and Steiners at the time. Not saying that Steamer would be a mid card face after the Lex series, but if Flair and Lex are your top heels for the near future, and Steamer is done with them... it does bring into question whether you can pay Steamer "top face money". Again, I don't recall the $$$ being tossed around, and don't know if Herd was thinking on that level. But there is an argument that could be made to look at paying Steamer a reasonable "looking forward" amount as opposed to what his slotting had been from Feb-Jul 1989. Kind of sucks since I like Steamer, he has value even in the middle of cards, and Herd was an asshole. But... I think the best thing that could be said was that Herd handled it poorly, and it did screw us out of what would have been a nice series with Lex. * * * * * Sidebar point: You wonder if they knew when Hayes won the title from Lex that Lex would be programed with Steamer after Rick dropped the NWA Title back to Flair? It really didn't make a lot of sense to have Lex do a quicky turn around with Hayes only to see Hayes go back to tags, and also take away they vibe that Ricky might lift the title from Lex. The US Title just didn't bounce around that much in those days. Was Lex a turn they just thought up later in May / early June leading into the Clash? Haven't read that period of the WON in a long time, so my brain is fuzzy on the decision to turn Lex. John

Loss: Something I mentioned early: maybe a General Subform where all of these can go for easier finding when it comes time for the Errata set? Anyway, here's one we just talked about: 10/23/92 - Korakuen Hall - WAR Card (11/21/92 NJPW TV) Tenryu & Kitahara vs. Koshinaka & Kimura (19:46) ****1/4 May be available in better VQ on a later Classics type airing. Dan would know. I would think all of it aired on TV since just two matches were on that show: the tag and Akitoshi Saito vs Orihara. The pre-match and post match are all keepers for the batshit intensity of it all. John

Ugh... that might be worth blaming on me. In the 1992 thread, I mentioned the old Tenryu Comp thread as having the keeper early Tenryu vs NJPW matches. I didn't link to the thread... and it frankly would have been easier just to drag over the three that I thought were keepers: this, Tenryu-Kosh and the October match. Bad mistake by me, since the October match was fab. John

Keith's piece on Dave's explaination of Ric's excuse on the alcoholic cardiomyopathy: Ric Flair insists his alcoholic cardiomyopathy was a misdiagnosis John

I think they ended up having a LOT of matches against each other in a feud. Raw matches with the title changes. Quite a few house show matches, many with the same format: false start match early on the card with them then having to come out later for a full match. Example lifted from a set: Barber Shop w/the Rockers (Wrestling Challenge – 1/12/92) Shawn Michaels vs. Steve May (Superstars – 10/31/92) Marty Jannetty vs. Papa Shango Finish (Dayton, OH – 11/24/92, Grudge Matches) Shawn Michaels vs. Marty Jannetty (Providence, RI – 11/27/92) Shawn Michaels vs. Marty Jannetty (Indianapolis, IN – 11/29/92) Shawn Michaels vs. Marty Jannetty (San Francisco, CA – 12/11/92) Shawn Michaels vs. Marty Jannetty (Hartford, CT – 12/26/92) Shawn Michaels vs. Marty Jannetty (Philadelphia, PA – 1/8/93) Royal Rumble Update (RAW – 1/11/93) Shawn Michaels vs. Marty Jannetty (Reno, NV – 1/23/93) Shawn Michaels vs. Marty Jannetty (Royal Rumble – 1/24/93) Shawn Michaels Interview (RAW – 5/17/93) Shawn Michaels vs. Marty Jannetty (RAW – 5/17/93) Update: Shawn Michaels Wins Intercontinental Title (Superstars – 6/12/93) Shawn Michaels vs. Marty Jannetty (RAW – 7/19/93) Shawn Michaels/Diesel vs. Marty Jannetty/Razor Ramon (Plattsburgh, NY – 7/26/93, Inside the WWF) Shawn/Diesel/Bam Bam vs. Jannetty/Mr. Perfect/Tatanka (MSG – 8/13/93) Shawn Michaels vs. Marty Jannetty - Cage Match (White Plains, NY – 8/17/93, Bloopers, Bleeps, & Bodyslams) Shawn/Diesel/Bam Bam vs. Jannetty/Mr. Perfect/Tatanka (San Francisco, CA – 8/20/93) There were a lot of handhelds, but also quite a few things on TV, PPV and CHV. It was just a little stop & star due to Marty's dope issues. But it did pretty much have a start, a middle of quite a few house show matches, the title changes, and a cage blow off. The handhelds on a set like the above might be overkill because most of them were probably repetative.

I've never been a fan of the Joeboshi match either. John

Reading the 12/12/88 WON and what Dave wrote above, they're not entirely consistent. I'm sure Dave could try to reconcile them, but in the end what he wrote above could have been incorporated into what he wrote in 1988 with the simple deletion of Larry's name (if Dave felt the need to protect his source). But it's pretty clear from what he wrote in 1988 that Dusty still had major power and a secure position of that power when Turner bought the promotion, that Ric then cut a deal / pulled a power play with TBS, and that there was a major issue with the Starcade finish. Dave also was very specific that the change to Flair-Luger was *Petrik's* decision by name, not Herd's. By the time things came to a head in December 1988, the company already was Turners. It was a little late to dump the company if Ric quit. Ric also was under contract before December, with that new contract that gave him "power to determine his own finishes and angles", included over the World Title. Ric didn't need to quit, nor would Herd and Petrik(well aware of Ric's contractual power) need to worry about Ric quiting: if Ric didn't like the Steiner match, or want to drop the title to Steiner, he didn't need to. He had the power to say no without quitting, and Dusty was fucked. Sure, Dusty tried to book the match and finish (according to Dave at the time). And Petrik at the time made the decision to make the change, according to Dave. But really the only way to read that was Petrik supporting Ric's request and right to change the match and finish from one that he didn't want to one he wanted. Again: if what happed is how Dave described it above, he could have written it clearly at the time simply with Larry's name out. It's the type of stuff Dave would write about, and actually make's Ric look better than what Dave wrote. Lord knows that even when Ric refused to do things or was something of a prick (such as trying to extort a contract extension in return for dropping the title to Lex in 1991), Dave tended to write it in a way that made Ric look the best and/or defend Ric. The stuff above is great for Ric: he had nothing to do with changing the finish, and instead others were enlightened about Ric's value to the company and wanting to do right by him. John

And not trying to be a thorn. Those lists are great references. Don't want someone in three years asking why a ****1/2 is there.

Since there isn't a new set exactly in your hand yet, if you have some time in the coming week, it would be interesting to see you edit in some reflecting comments above on your throughs about them after seeing the entire year's worth of matches. Similar to how you did in 1996. I think we all enjoyed those reflections as much as the ordering itself. John

Side note: I do like that you give some thought to what folks said on these and other matches. Doesn't mean that you go back and agree, but the going back and thinking about it is very cool. Thumbs up. John

Star rating on the first needs to be correctd. John

Depite the end section of my post, it was less about Dave getting up on the soap box about Kurt than him dropping the "no solution" nonsense. This isn't the first time he's said that, especially if we consider all the around about times he's gone down that path. Dave has written more about the problems of drugs and destructive behavior in wrestling than anyone in the history of pro wrestling. He's been on the leading edge of it since Gino dropped dead: that's 25 years. He's done a ton of tremendous writting about it over the years, and no doubt a lot of it has been painful for him to write. We've seen what the alternative to Dave on this topic would be: jerkoffs like Ryder and Scherer defending pro wrestling and doing the "boys will be boys" crap. My problem is with the "no solution" theme he's hit on: pro wrestling is pro wrestling, it's a tough business, workers get banged up, they need to medicate the hell out of themselves just to survive in the business... so by extension were going to have some of them dropping dead, some of them driving impared, quite a few of them becoming addicts. I don't think any of us are naive that is a certain reality. But imagine Tom Brady getting busted repeatedly for drunk driving, which are part of a long track record of drug and booze related issues that have been public. Then imagine Peter King or Mort saying on SportsCenter or Sunday Night Football (i.e. the biggest profile football shows they can be on): You don't think large chunks of the media would point out that King and Mort are out of line with "no solution" for Brady being fucked up and drinking & driving? I'd also grant that major NFL media like Mort and King tend to ignore the obvious pill problems in the NFL far more than Dave has over the years. Like said above, all the credit in the world to Dave for massively covering this issue in wrestling for a quarter century. [i suspect if someone passes these two posts along to Dave, the putting over the great work Dave has done on the subject is going to get lost in the specific criticism... so I'm saying it again] But you just can't go down the "no solution" route, no matter how broken record your coverage is. If that's how one feels, use it for things when guys drop dead or overdose like Gordy. Don't be so dumb as to use it when someone is out drinking and driving. There are obvious solutions there, and obvious risks that are to high, going beyond simply the risk of Kurt dropping dead. John

Bryan must live in a cave. John

You're going to make me listen to one of those shows? I've got about 18 hours of sports and 4 hours of PWG to watch on Saturday... I don't have time for that. John

I'm pretty gobsmacked by Dave's "It’s a time bomb of problems and there’s no solution" comment on Angle in this week's newsletter. Dave kind of talks himself in circles because he clearly is uncomfortable with his own "no solution" view, but can't quite bring himself to say that Kurt needs to clean himself up, even if it means getting out of pro wrestling and taking a lower paying gig. My general thought would be to pose this to Dave to think about: Kurt gets boozed up. Kurt gets into his car yet again boozed up and drives impared. Because of his impaired ability, he slams into a car that has Dave's wife and his kids in it. Kurt's okay... he survives with minor injuries. Dave's wife and kids die. Would get get this in the WON the next week: "It was a time bomb of problems with something like this possibly happening, but there was no solution." I don't think so. We need to get out of our narrow Pro Wrestling Fan and Pro Wrestling Writer mindsets after a while and face reality: Kurt's a fucking trainwreck. Most of it is self destructive, and in that sense, fuck Kurt if he turns out dead like Louie or Eddy or the rest of them. There's only so much one can invest in hoping/wanting them to turn it around. But... not all of it is self destructive or free from potentially harming others. Drunk/loaded/high/stoned driving is one of the obvious ones. We should save the "It’s a time bomb of problems and there’s no solution" spot for those times when Kurt passes out back stage or overdoses like Gordy or just plain drops dead like Pillman. But when they're caught drinking and driving, Pro Wrestling Writers can actually stop playing the hand wringing game of not wanting to be too critical of wrestlers they like or the cesspool of a provession we follow by trying to explain away it's worst aspects and for a change get on the soap box and ream the fuck out of someone like Kurt. It's okay to say this in the WON: "Kurt Angle is clearly a fucking mess. I can't justify or defend his actions. The excusses that the business caused this, or that Kurt can't clean up just don't fly anymore. Kurt just doesn't want to do what needs to be done to get sober, and stay sober. Some might see that as a tragedy, but the real tragedy will be if his actions take others down with. No fucking excusses." John

This is more than a bit bizzaro. John

Yeah... what Bix said. Major revision of the piece. I just wish people when doing that would do one of two things: * put it in an "update" section; or * publish a new article John

It was great radio. Love Todd being a surrogate for the subscribers at times taking Bryan down a notch too. Summary? John

I might have been one of the folks yelling. It was strange: it was launched in Jan 2010, so I hoped to get it before the 2009/2010 season ended. Didn't happen. Then I hoped my TWC would pick it up before the 2010/2011 season *started* in Aug 2010. Didn't happen. I don't think we got it until the season *ended* in May 2011. It was always funny to be down at my Dad's and see FSC HD on his rinky dink cable system and not be able to see it on mine. Anyway, things like MSNBC were slow in getting HD fully rolled out. I don't think our TWC system had it for very long before KO left the channel... maybe a year, or less. That means 2010ish. It's also unlikely that a WWE Channel could have forced their way onto the HD section that many cable companies are slowly rolling out. I didn't get Comedy Central HD until the last year. Same with Spike. Those two have some major entertainment companies behind them. So the key would have simply to get on years ago, roll out content, figure out "new" programing specific for the WWEC, and build an audience by integrating it smartly into Raw and SD! (which I don't think the WWE ever has smartly done with 24/7 or the web arm). John

That's why I used "long term". AWA had a good year in 1984. But: * Hogan & Vince made massive in roads into AWA territory in 1984 It wasn't just a beach head. The took the beach, and moved inland to the point that they really had a base of opperations in the heart of AWA land. * there wasn't a great deal in 1984 in the AWA that looked like the long term base to compete with the WWF Martel? I don't think so. Not against Hogan, not against his and Vince's ability to get national attention onto Hogan. Long term support down the card? Not really. Did the AWA even have anyone like say Piper and Valentine getting added to the WWF in 1984? The key thing Verne had going for him was being the Home Team. It was the promotion people follwed for years. It put on "good product" for the fans based on what they'd been watching for years. But was it good enough to prevent the beach head? Didn't seem to be. We had a bit of a discussion along these lines in another thread about Wrestlemania III being even more of the end of the War than Starcade '87. JCP was actually in decent shape in March of 1987: generally speaking, a great year in 1986. Added BW and Lex to close 1986 / open 1987, along with useful guys like Jimmy Garvin and Rick Rude in later 1986. Flair vs BW was a thrilling series of matches for hardcores. Things looked hopeful... But the other guy just put on Hogan-Andre, drew 90K+, made tons of money, and got all that attention. JCP seemed to shrink from "rival" to "opposition", and one that would have to carve out it's chunk and ward off Vince stealing people. Rude jumping so soon after Mania was a bad sign. Just felt like it was a point at which the War was clearly eventually going to be lost. AWA in 1984... WWF did well enough to such a degree moving into the area, and the AWA seemed lacking in being able to sustain competition other than based on the hope "people will get tired of the WWF and stop going". Not a business plan for hope. John

Yeah, I'd agree that Misawa-Kawada was great support, but Kobashi-Sasaki was clearly the bigger match on the day. Sure it was. But take a few minutes to think about this: Would Kobashi vs Mutoh have sold more tickets to that show than Kobashi vs Sasaki? Luck of the draw that Sasaki was in that match. It really is no different from giving Sasaki and Kawada credit for their sellout. Mutoh vs Misawa would have packed it just as much, and been a match people actually wanted to see more. Sasaki happened to be the IWGP Champ, and Kawada was the last man standing in All Japan at the time. I do give AJPW vs NJPW credit for drawing more than the allegedly great drawing power of Ogawa against Hash. But Sasaki got lucky, and Kawada was just the AJPW guy in the right spot. Misawa and Kobashi would have sold the place out as well. But when people look at Matt's list and really don't have a good understanding of what was what at the time, it's just a number on a list that makes Sasaki look good. REO Speedwagon had the biggest selling album in the country one year in the early 80s. Born In The USA was either the #2 (behind Purple Rain) or #3 (behind Purple Rain and the still selling Thiller) album of 1984. REO's shitty album > seller than Born In The USA? Not at all. Would have gotten it's ass handed to it. Just came along in a year where there wasn't another monster seller. But someone who doesn't have a good idea of music or sales in the first half of the 80s would come along and think: "Holy shit... REO was huge! Even BitUSA wasn't #1 in the year it came out. Wow!" No. But it is why I think we both agree that Sasaki will go in: he's got shit that looks good on a list: 10K "main events", titles and tournies. It will get him in eventually. John

And he's working people if he's claiming that was 1989. I don't recall him advocating Hogan for Wrestling of the Year in 1996 and 1997. I also suspect that we can find examples of Dave talking about work, and advocating workers going in the HOF, since TUF Season 1 when UFC "got big". Dave still advocates work. He overplayed Hase's back office impact to give himself cover for advocating him for the HOF, but that was a pure work vote. You'll see work being meaningless to Dave in HOF voting when he changes the intro to the ballot and removes all references to working and performing from it. John

Verne tried to expand westward. Mixed success. Once Hogan was in the WWF, along with all the other early raids through 1984 (not just of AWA talent, but from everywhere), I don't think the AWA had a long term chance. You really needed some anchor to counter Hogan. The AWA didn't have that, and it's really hard to point to who they could have turned to in that role. John

I dunno if FedEx uses a similar policy or what, but only the address, odor parts, and maybe "source state" parts really seem like strong criteria. I'm pretty sure I've sent plenty of packages that fit the other three that didn't contain drugs. We're in the Surveillance State era now. In three days we're going to honor it. Even tonight there's news breaking of a "credible but unconfirmed terror threat". I've given up on trying to figure out how Uncle Sam knows what they know because it will simply make your head hurt on how extreme it's gotten. That they found this because someone was dumb enough to send dope through FedEx like a dope dealer (or worse in looking like he was trying to conceal something that *wasn't* a drug: think worse)... why is anyone terribly surprised? I'm not so paranoid to think that FedEx / UPS / DHL / USPS open every package. But I'm also no longer naive into thinking they aren't insanely paranoid about things going through the mail, and billions of dollars are going down the rabbit hole to "protect us". Well, the circumstances of the arrest weren't public until today so I guess no reporter would have known anything but I would think that someone working on the case would know what happened to the sender and it's a pretty important question to ask. If all the reporter cared about was Hardy, that's all he'd ask. I think we both know that reporters far too often to go beyond their mission or what's infront of them. On the two sides of this coin: * high profile customer / alleged "dealer" sharer * dealer Law enforcement typically tries to roll "customers" to get dealers. Jeff in the end was a customer, but had enough that they could charge him with more to put pressure on him to plea out to stiffer custmer charges. Yeah... that's a Meltzer sentence there, but hope it made sense. Since he was high profile, they didn't want to completely slap him on the wrist. $100K and a 30 month tail isn't terribly light, even if the time in the slammer is. Someone likely chased the supplier as well. And then chased up from him. Just the way they do things. John