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Was he taking money and/or ads from RF *after* the incident? Before that, RF was simply widely known to be gay. I'm not sure if Dave ever heard anything about RF trolling jailbait. Don't see why Dave (or the people running his sight) shouldn't have taken ad money from RF, other than the fact that RF was a giant asshole. After the incident... probably not the best to take ads. I don't sub to the WON regularly over the past 3+ year, instead getting it in stretches. He really hasn't taken ads in the WON regularly since the early 90s. But 1995 they were pretty much a thing of the past. He might mention stuff, but less than one shill would. He mentioned people's books far more than their DVD's and tapes, and then mentioned Mainstream DVDs (like the Von Erich one and the WWE ones) more than shoot ones. I don't think he ever was taking cash from traders to place ads. Freebies? Some, but he also sent out a lot of freebie tapes to people over the years as well. Hard to point to anything in the WON. On the website, I'm willing to bet that Dave had very little control over the ad content. That would the people that originally did his website, then those LAW folks, and now Bryan. That doesn't mean that if he saw an RF ad after the incident that he shouldn't have contacted his admin and tell them that it didn't look good for it to be up. But one can see that stuff going over his head as well. John

Sorry... I thought that was a quote from Dana, not Dave. Okay... got it. Dave's taking a shot at the WWF/WWE. It's a warranted one, though I think the WWF has taken heat about stuff like that over the years. John

The RF doesn't fit. Was RF molesting underaged folks *at* ROH? "I'm running a company where underage boys were being molested for years and it's known," That "where" seems to place it within the promotion, rather than outside the promotion. I read it like the others - that he's talking about the WWF/WWE. I'm also not sure why Dana would bother taking shots at the WWE. He knows folks in his industry aren't saints. John

Still in San Jose, still watching wrestling. Likes Dailymotion and Youtube quite a bit. Married, moved but still at the W. Easy enough to get more there. Still teaching the last I talked to him. Seemed to be doing well. tOA. Francine was on RSPW? Heard recently that he was doing some stuff with the fWo again, which is good. John

Still teaching: http://www.mathstat.uoguelph.ca/people/20 Seems to be doing well: http://www.mathstat.uoguelph.ca/news/13 Whether he still watches wrestling... who knows. John

There is that. John

Probably easy to find on DM. They had two gimmicks when going around the circuit. One was the Short No Contest Low On The Card + Short Match Later on the Card. The other were draws. They had a number of other matches where Martel pinned him, which were probably mid-lengthed. The no contest was on the 4/22/89 NESN card, right after Mania. It's too bad that wasn't a draw or a mid-lengthed match because *none* of those seem to exist prior to Martel going with the Model gimmick. So the SNME is the best you'll find before he went Model. After the Model, they had a few such as: Rick Martel pinned Tito Santana at 9:38 after spraying Santana in the eyes with his Arrogance cologne (Hottest Matches) (4/4/90; Glens Falls, NY; Civic Center) If I recall, there were others. A bit too bad. Their feud is almost exactly the kind of feud that would show up on Prime Time a bunch. John

Interesting article. Some good insight into Paul. Chhibber's style of writing the article is a drag to what Paul has to say. The Watts stuff is always a load of fun. Born Again Bill who has seen the error of his racist ways is a hoot. John

How hot were the ratings for Raw and SmackDown heading into Invasion relative to what they had been since Mania? John

There was a article recently about one of the studios making their content available for DVD/Download. It wasn't cheap, but it was a lot of stuff that's never made it to DVD before and was about putting the control in the hands of the buyer. The WWE is likely to be very careful about their vault. I'm sure they want to monetize it. But they also have barely scratched getting it out there. 24/7 is in limited markets, and their online content remains fairly small considering the wealth of stuff they have. John

He's probably off a bit on the OD in Washingto. Possibly here [results from Graham's page]: WWWF @ Baltimore, MD - Civic Center - October 21, 1978 Superstar Billy Graham defeated Tony Garea Couple of nights later his last *big* match at MSG in that era: WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - October 23, 1978 Bruno Sammartino defeated Superstar Billy Graham when the referee stopped the match due to Graham bleeding from the face at 12:19 He works some of the big shows for the following month, with Bruno and Dusty regular opponents like: WWWF @ Boston, MA - Boston Garden - November 4, 1978 Bruno Sammartino defeated Superstar Billy Graham via count-out after bloodying Graham on the floor; there was some confusion as to the result since no official announcement was raised WWWF @ Landover, MD - Capital Centre - November 11, 1978 (matinee) Superstar Billy Graham vs. Gorilla Monsoon WWWF @ New Haven, CT - November 12, 1978 Ivan Putski vs. Superstar Billy Graham (Dino Bravo as guest referee) WWWF @ Long Island, NY - Nassau Coliseum - November 17, 1978 Andre the Giant vs. Superstar Billy Graham WWWF @ Philadelphia, PA - Spectrum - November 18, 1978 Dusty Rhodes defeated Superstar Billy Graham in a bullrope match via count-out at 8:13 after hitting Graham in the face with the cowbell attached to the rope; after the bout, Rhodes fought off an attack from Graham That was his last big match. He worked the MSG card two nights later, which was his last shot in that era at MSG: WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - November 20, 1978 Dino Bravo fought Superstar Billy Graham to a double disqualification Not a big match. The problem would be that months DC show was after MSG: WWWF @ Baltimore, MD - Civic Center - November 25, 1978 Which he wasn't on. He didn't work another match with the WWF until the Kung Fu return. He did miss this one that appeared to be booked: WWWF @ Philadelphia, PA - Spectrum - December 16, 1978 Bruno Sammartino defeated George Steele (sub. for Superstar Billy Graham) Which clearly was a big match. It's also quite a screw up since that's Bruno's "payback" match. Bruno didn't get a payback in Philly after the cage match loss earlier in the year, and of course hadn't won the title matches when Graham was champ. Graham got done with Backlund in Philly, then went right into a renewal of the feud with Dusty with Dusty's payback being the one listed above. Here was Bruno's turn, and he airballed it. The MSG match was the last one. Billy now likes to blame part of his dope use on being depressed about dropping the title and getting phased down. But here to the end of the year, he's in the thick of things. Matches with Backlund, Dusty, Bruno and Andre. And he still melted down and OD'd a couple of nights before a big match with Bruno in the Garden. The notion that he could have been Hogan by turning face in February 1978 rather than the belt going on Bob is just stupid. The guy would have burned out just the same. Which he in a sense points out himself: Bingo. BTW, I'm almost certain the real date of that issue is 1992. It would have been during the Steriod Story, which didn't get hot until late 1991 and early 1992. Billy talks in that interview about the stuff he did with Hogan if I recall correctly. Also look at other news in the issue... I'm sure it's 1992. John

January 1992 if I recall correctly. I want to say the same issue as when he broke the news that Luger was jumping to the WWF. Long interview, at a time when Dave never did interviews in the WON. That was the are for Wade and Clark. The Stone Cold Superstar would have been in the late 90s or early 00s. Don't have an exact date in mind. Some of the discussion may have been on Classics. I know it was a regular running joke on tOA, but Dave never posted there. So getting a timeline out of Dave was either Classics, or someone like Bix calling into WO Live like with the Jumbo stuff. Just don't recall. Some of this stuff may have come out in Dave's History Of The WWF Title piece which sort of just died out. The Superstar and Backlund sections were quite funny in the funny-bad way. Graham's book also has lots of myth-making about going babyface, which doesn't at all line up with what he told Dave in 1992. John

And what happened? Taker didn't feel like working? John

Sorry for going off on an old WWF rant there. I've been watching way too much of it lately. It's a bad sign when Gorilla is paired with Dick Graham on a tape from the Spectrum and you're missing Kal Rudman being there at the table. You've gone completely around the bend with that happened. John

He was. But he was also a self admitted basket case by a point in 1978 due to the grind of being on the road and downing loads of dope. That was after just 18 months or so on top. There really isn't any evidence that Graham wouldn't have fallen apart if he'd come along later and been Vince's anchor for expansion. Say whatever we want about Hogan, but he *was* able to sustain the grind and the fast lane lifestyle from 1984 through well into the 90s. Set aside that Hogan wasn't "working every night". Vince had him making appearances other than just in the ring when his wrestling schedule slowed. Read up on actors talking about the grind of promotional tours launching movies. They tend to think it sucks more than actually making the movie. If Graham melted down after 18 months of largely being on top in the WWWF *territory*, with increased touring in 1978 after he dropped the title... anyone think he would have held up doing it nationally? Not likely. He wouldn't even have been able to do three years ontop in the WWF from 4/77 to 3/80: he burned out in half that time. John

Yeah shit like that... When did people start saying that kind of stuff? Agreed. Vince Sr *did* do big business. And if you watch Bruno, Pedro and Bob, they were extremely charsimatic in the era for playing to and connecting with those WWF/WWWF fans. If you want bland, watch Larry Z as a babyface, or Tony Garea. Which isn't to say that they didn't try to play to the crowds, and at times connect. But Bruno, Pedro and Bob were all on another level. Pedro matches drive me crazy. His selling is just horrid, largely looking for the quickest way to lay on the mat and get stomped. But I was watching one of the two Pedro vs Valentine matches from 1982 the other night, and damn if Pedro wasn't getting amazing heat for his comebacks and his playing to the crowd. He could put the crowd to sleep for a stretch with shitty selling, but when he cameback, started waving those fists around and looking/nodding out to the crowd with that "I want to kick the shit out of him... do you want me to kick the shit out of him?" look, the crowd went bonkers. There was a certain WWF Face Style from Bruno to Pedro to Bruno to Bob to Hogan. You could see lesser workers like Putski taking bits of it, and it work with that goofy MSG crowd. It's the style they were brought up on, and they lapped the shit up. If you watch in contrast some of Dibiase's less heated matches in the WWF, it's largely because Ted is in there working like Dory Jr: uncharismatic and not playing to the crowd enough. Sometimes we tend to overlook charisma that we don't like. Goes right over our heads. I'm sure I'm as guilty of that as anyone. John

Where did the Superstar Graham could have turned face and become Hogan five years earlier story start? Is that something that started up with the Graham DVD set that WWE released? Or was that a story circulated earlier? Cause its become weirdly conventional wisdom at this point. This started with Graham when he was watching Austin. He thought he could so the Stone Cold anti-hero gimmick and keep on drawing for years. When people laughed about it being nonsensical, Dave ran out to backstop Superstar and that the Superstar Face Turn was something he'd heard from Billy going back ages, back to the time Dave interviewed him. When it was pointed out to Dave that it wasn't in the interview, and that if it was something Billy mentioned at the time it almost certain would have been asked/re-asked at that interview, Dave didn't have a good answer and sort of wandered off for a while. Billy's interview was kind of funny in that he said he made as much money not being champ, and then got out of the business because he was totally burned our after two years on top (along with all the dope). There was Zero indication in the interview that Billy thought he should have gone face, or that he could have sustained another year beyond 1978 since he was so burned out. No doubt Billy has told himself so many times since then that he could have been Babyface Superstar like Hogan, and later Stone Cold Superstar, that he now believes it. But it's another one of those Wrestling Stories where the facts don't add up very well. A bit like the notion that Backlunds cards were more loaded up than Grahams. May 16, 1977: Bruno June 27, 1977: Bruno vs Billy, with Andre August 1, 1977: Bruno vs Billy, with Andre August 29, 1977: Bruno vs Patera death match, with Verne Gagne September 26, 1977: Dusty vs Billy October 24, 1977: Dusty vs Billy, with Mil Mascaras November 21, 1977: Dusty and Mil December 19, 1977: Mil vs Billy, with Dusty January 23, 1978: Mil vs Billy, with Dusty February 20, 1978: Billy vs Bob, with Dusty & Mil He never worked a card as Champ that didn't have Bruno, Dusty, Andre or Mil on it. Six of 10 matches against Bruno, Dusty or Mil, a seventh against Bob when he was getting the big push. But conventional wisdom that Billy didn't have any help on his cards. Just the biggest babyfaces of that era in the WWF all over his cards and as his opponents. John

I'm not remembering what happened with Taker-Lesner. Was that the HitC bloodbath? John

We're at the point where one has to prove that Savage *didn't* bang a 17 year old Steph, or "isn't" a pedo? Odd. I always thought it was the other way around. Savage banging a 17 year old Steph wouldn't fall under the definition of "pedophile". It wouldn't even make him an hebaphile. It's a ephebophile, which becomes an age of consent issue. Look up the words if you don't know what they mean. The age of consent in Connecticut is 16. We've now got speculation starting (people reading something into Dave's comments) that this may have happened in Germany. Age of consent in Germany is no later than 16, and can be as early as 14. Yeah... those evil, liberal, socialist Euros. If we buy the story that Savage wanted to bang Major Guns and here 17 year old daughter in a threesome, it's more of the same. Georgia is 16 for age of consent. Of course that could have been an offer made in some other state. So if we buy all this stuff, Savage is a dirty old ephebophile who likes to consensual bang late adolescents / late teen women. In some states, he'd get slapped with a statutory rape/sex offender charge. In others, it would be creepy but legal. Lawler, from his track record of legal issues and all the stories that swirl around him, is either a hebaphile or a ephebophile or both. I don't think I've ever heard stories of Jerry chasing pre-pubescent kids, so calling him a pedo wouldn't be accurate. I'm guilty of calling him one over the years, at least until Iron Chad corrected me several years back. Age of consent in TN is 18, though that law may have been pushed up to 18 from a lower age during the course of Lawler's career. It's 16 in Kentucky, another part of the territory. If I recall correctly, the girl was 15 when it "allegedly" happened. Creepier, dirtier old man breaking the law... "allegedly". John

Here's one recap of the Stern show: Perhaps someone can get direct quotes. But it doesn't at all sound like Savage told her back when she was 11-12 that "he used to babysit her" and it was creppy. It sounds much more like *current/recent* Savage told her that, and that it was creepy. She's not at all implying that Savage made a pass at her back when she was a kid. As far as Brooke's truthfulness: http://community.livejournal.com/ohnotheydidnt/26070314.html She's a worker. Come on folks... didn't anyone watch that goofy show? All four of them were fucked in the head. The little dog that shit all over Hogan's gym might have been the sanest of the bunch. John

Being crippled and killing Liz might've played a part too. I assume that's aimed at Lex. And it's possible that Vince believes that. Of course Liz died in 2003, which was well after the point where Vince decided not to use Lex. I tend to think that Vince could have "saved" Liz if he really gave a shit. She was working the front desk of the freaking Gym. It's not terribly hard to given her an office and appearances job in the WWE with going through rehab and staying clean as a condition. Hell, the warning signs were there 12-14 days before her death. He could have flown down there, or had someone in the family fly down there, and get her on the next plane to Stamford. So Vince's pain over Liz's death doesn't hold a lot of water. I see plenty of reasons. Savage is on the "enemies list" of her old man. She also is a worker. The time frame also puts it back to when she was 12 and under, and "hit on" isn't exactly something that a pedo does. Give all the shit that Hogan and Savage tossed at each other back and forth, you don't think it wouldn't have come out back in 2002-2003 when the heat was the highest? John

I posted earlier in the thread the Raw after Randy signed with WCW where Vince was putting him over strongly. Randy left in broad daylight. It was a time where Vince chose not to match WCW on big deals to Hogan and Randy, and probably some others that I'm forgetting. It wasn't until the Monday Night Era where Vince started to give a shit. That's part of the problem with the Randy story - lots of "facts" that folks are tossing around don't add up with reality. John

Per the e-mail to Bix earlier in the thread, Dave says he first heard about it in 2001-2002. John

When did Savage and Hogan start hating each other? Brooke was born on May 5, 1988. He stopped working as a regular at Road Wild in August 1999, and had been on the shelf for ten months prior to April 1999. Savage appeared on a 01/14/00 house show in Charleston subbing for Bret Hart. He appeared on one TV show in May 2000. Brooke was 10-11 the last time Randy worked regularly with her hold man, and 12 the last time they even appeared on the same show. It looks like in 2001 that Savage was willing to do business: Savage issues challenge to Hogan Press Release: Macho Man Randy Savage Issues Challenge To Hulk Hogan Those are Dec 2001. My recollection is that they played off the two already having a bit of war of words in the press. Brooke would have been 13 at that point. By 2002, they were taking major shots at each other. Hogan went to the big money of the WWF with Hall & Nash. It's possible that Randy wanted some of that and was disappointed he didn't get any. I don't think the timeline adds up to Macho hitting on a 10-11 year old Brooke. As far as Brooke, she's grown up in a working environment. You watched the show, right? She and her brother along with Ma Hogan were all as full of shit as Terry. John

And to be clear - I don't think Svage did. If he didn't, it kind of fucked up that the rumor is out there playing him off as on. John