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FWIW - yes, I know it's a troll, and feeding as such. I've simply always found it interesting that: * Criticism In Wresting Is Bad when we are all critical in life in other things * if you're critical about something in wrestling then you must not enjoy wrestling * the old Get A Life saw from someone who is taking the time to read wrestling message boards * the lay back and enjoy it approach This is shit we've all run into over the past decade plus that we've been online. Take the Angle vs. Race vs. Lawler discussion in another thread. Rather than what was an interesting discussion, we could have cut it off after 2-3 posts by dropping all of those on people who were pointing out things they thought were flawed about Harley. They are all as applicable to that thread as to criticism of Flair. But instead, people actually talked about it back and forth. That is why we're on Wrestling Message Boards/Forums/Groups: To write what we think about wrestlers and wrestling We could be Stuart and just write about the rosey happy stuff. Or we could limit critical thinking to stuff like the Benoit killings. But that's pretty limited. John

I always wonder why people bitch about this. We as humans bitch about all sorts of shit in out lives where we are "too picky". Maybe it's how our boss treats us. Or it's about our wives putting on weight. Or about our favorite team making moves we don't like. Or a sports star sucking. Or that our favorite TV show has gone off the bend. Or that a certain resturant is suck compared to another one. Or why Sid sucked as a worker, or the differences between the period where Lex was a decent worker and when he wasn't. Everyone does that. People bitch about stuff every single day of their lives. Yet when someone gets critical about wrestling, and is willing to explain *why* they're being critical, and then futher defend it... you'll get a host complaining that he's nitpicking, or "thinking too much", or draining the fun out of their wonderful enjoyment of glorious pro wrestling. I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with the points Frank makes, or the opinions he holds. I certainly do disagree with plenty of them. I don't have a problem with people thinking he's a prick. I certainly do, even when we were friends for a decade. But people knocking him simply because he's critical, and willing to explain why he is... To be blunt, they're being hypocritical fucks. The funny thing is that he probably enjoys the wrestling he likes more than just about anyone on this board. I've watched wrestling sitting next to Meltzer, Tennay, Steve Sims, Keller, Mitchell, Phil Schneider, CRZ, Jesse Money (there's a lucha name going back a long time), and old time 60s fans like Bob Barnett and Steve Yohe. I've watched some damn good wrestling with all of them at one time or another. I don't think any of them "enjoyed" what they thought was good werstling any more or any less than Frank did when I watched it with him. People show it differently. My friend Hoback pops like mad when something happens that he digs, which oddly enough Meltzer does too (second fall of Santito & Octagon vs. Eddy & Art). In contrast, Yohe tends to be pretty low key, more flashing it in the sense of articulating in his gruff voice, "This is fucking great." It takes something like his favorite Santito beating Rey Jr. down in Tijuana on a night were we all thought Konnan would book Rey to go over to see Steve match Hoback and Meltzer in a pop. People write about it differently. All of us who dealt with old ECW Boards/Forums/Groups got to see a lot of ECW Fans rambling about the Greatness of ECW and slagging anyone who profained about the works of Pope Paul. One probably can find the same shit on the current ROH Fan Sites. Elsewhere you probably would find more realistic writing about both promotions. Stuart over at New Japan Central cops to being little more than a Promotion Loving House Organ for New Japan. Elsewhere you'd find a bit more realistic talk. Frank wasn't any different from that. Get a match or wrestler he liked, and he'll explain it in detail of someone wanted to talk about it. Get something that he didn't like, he's explain it. Get a wrestler that he thought people were missing the boat on (say Flair in one extreme or Tully being underrated), and he would ramble about it. Folks tended to love it when Frank was agreeing with them because he could at times rip to shreds the folks that they were disagreeing. Folks didn't like it when they disagreed with Frank because it ended up being uncomfortable having that aimed at you. Lord knows I've been on both sides of that. The old "get a life, get laid" refrain. He does have a life outside of wrestling. Always has had it. It's a reason why he doesn't write about wrestling anymore, and hasn't to a large degree since 2006 or so. I always find this funny coming from people who also watch a good deal of wrestling, spend a lot of time going to live shows, and happen to read and post on wrestling boards. "It's okay for me to do it, but not the people I don't like to do it." In a word: bullshit. Except that he does enjoy pro wrestling. Just not all of it. The reality is that none of us enjoy all of pro wrestling. I mean, how many of us thought Sid vs. the Nightstalker was a great match? There's stuff on every week that we think is shit. We get tapes or DVDs all the time that have crap on them. We also all are willing to say so. Frank was just more willing to explain why. For some, "I liked it" and "I didn't like it" is enough commentary on why stuff is good or bad. For others, it's not enough. John

Hell, that's mild. My thought would be that if someone else's criticism of pro wrestling makes you not like wrestling anymore, than you're not a wrestling fan to begin with. We've been faced with criticism of this thing we enjoy from day one: "You like that fake wrestling stuff?" Dealing with criticism is part of being a wrestling fan. We should all be use to it by now. John

Oh... and I'm not sure how well the thread reads. A long time ago. I think other arguments over there were better, such as stuff relating to the WON 100 Wrestlers of All-Time book. Those were a few good threads. John

Beats me. WC is a pain in the ass to search for a word so common as Flair. *pokes around* Ric Flair: Greatest worker, wrestler, or neither of all I suspect it's that one. Goes long, with a jazz side drain at the end. Might not agree with everything that Frank said in there, but the "300 ****" a year average is largely tied to the fact that Dave rates Flair matches really, really, really, really High. I saw those Los Angeles matches with a few exceptions, and the only one that got to **** was the Wargames in 1988. They were "Good" matches, and I enjoyed them. But "good" is ***. If you told me Flair wrestled 300 matches a year that combined to average over ***, I would be more willing to buy it. I suspect I've watched more wrestling sitting next to Dave than everyone else on this board combined. He rates live matches Really High when he's enjoying them. We've been to cards where he had two ****3/4 matches on the show. I enjoyed them, but that's a bit extreme. John "I liked it." -Dave when pushed explaining why the 1/95 Kawada & Taue vs. Misawa & Taue was *****

My recollection is that the people who've seen house show footage of non-televised cards have said that Jumbo was very good in them. Dave himself went to non-TV matches, and only one didn't rate well and he *never* indicated in any of those non-TV matches that Jumbo wasn't working hard. The "Only Worked Hard When The Cameras Were On" was about the 5th excuse Dave came up with after the prior ones were shot out of the water. At what point does the burden move from those who keep proving things to be false to the person who keep talking out of his ass? It's like the Friedman Unit: Things are going to turn around in the next six months in Iraq. Tom Friedman started saying this back on November 30, 2003 at the latest. He was still saying that in 2006, with many "six months" comments in between. At some point, you just realize Friedman is full of shit and it's his job to prove he's right. Dave's been wrong on Jumbo seven ways to Sunday. He needs to be right on some of the negative comments / criticism before he rebuilds his credibility on Jumbo. As far as Flair, years ago there was a discussion on Classics that the old "Flair have 4-5 **** matches a week" was largely bullshit. John

The best thing about Dave is when he forgets what he once thought: "I had the opportunity to view a number of old Bob Backlund matches from 78-80, and I must admit Bob really was an excellent wrestler. He was weak as a brawler even then, but his technique was damn impressive. The difference in his speed and work rate comparing then and now is simply incredible." -Dave Meltzer, November 1983 Wrestling Observer Newsletter Same shit with Aja Kong where he totally forgot what he wrote about here in the early 90s. John

I suspect the pwtorch.com accounts all still work. But he's always had other e-mail accounts, and it's possible that he has the Torch e-mails set to autoforward. I know that I have that for my tOA account. Tossing out the Gmail just makes it direct... would be my guess. John

I think the Ken vs. Kevin sounds like a keeper. Pretty important given the aura the "Double Champion" run in 1980 had in the mark mags back in the day. John

On the title change with the High Flyers, my question was more towards whether you'd recommend it being a part of the final list. I probably misread your recommendtions - they may have only been aimed at "good work from Ken" rather than including "also needs to be on the short list for historical reasons". John

There was a fair amount of Ken in Memphis. Bix might know what's out there. Lawler vs. Patera sounds like it would be a really interesting feud. John

All Japan 10/21/77 Patera & Brazil vs Baba & Tsuruta - NWA Int'l Tag Title 10/24/77 Ken Patera vs Giant Baba - PWF Title These is 1977 stuff that's out there, and Dan has dug up other stuff from this very series. But I haven't seen any of the key matches listed (these two along with Jumbo vs Wahoo for the UN). John

Japan 09/30/80 Ken Patera vs Antonio Inoki - NWF Title (NJ Classics) 05/11/84 Ken Patera vs Andre the Giant (NJ Classics) 06/14/84 Patera & Adonis & Murodch vs. Choshu & Yatsu & Saito (NJ Classics) Those are easy to find. The Patera vs Inoki is on the Inoki Box, which would be prime condition. He was all over TV on another series: 01/09/81 Ken Patera vs Riki Choshu 01/16/81 Patera & Enforcer vs Inoki & Choshu 01/22/81 Ken Patera vs Tatsumi Fujinami (aired 01/23/81) 01/30/81 Patera & Singh & Allen vs Inoki & Sakaguchi & Choshu 02/04/81 Ken Patera vs Antonio Inoki - NWF Title (aired 02/13/81) 02/06/81 Patera & Duncum vs Sakaguchi & Fujinami This is going to be harder to find. One would have to check with Dan if he's gotten any early 1981 TV. Some does exist: List B 13 Inoki VS Kemper Thera (55/9/30NWF) Inoki VS Kemper Thera (56/2NWF) List C-5 042 Inoki VS Kemper Thera (56/2/4NWF) 053 Nagato VS Kemper Thera (56/1/9) So the second Inoki vs Patera is on a pair of tapes, while the Choshu vs Patera is out there as well. But that's a tough source for Dan. Don't know if he's found anyone better for 1981. John

St. Louis - Larry M DVD's Ken Patera vs. Kerry Brown (STL Vol 3) Ken Patera vs. Tommy Yates (STL Vol 3) Interview with Ken Patera (STL Vol 3) Ken Patera vs Tommy Sharp - Missouri Title (STL Vol 4) Ken Patera & King Kong Brody vs Rocky Johnson & Pat O'Connor (STL Vol 4) Ken Patera vs. Kerry Von Erich (STL Vol 5) Ken Patera vs. Dewey Robertson (STL Vol 7) Ken Patera & Pat Kelly vs. Bulldog Bob Brown & Rocky Johnson (STL Vol 7) Ken Patera vs Joe Kirkland (STL Vol 8) Ken Patera & Crusher Blackwell vs Butch Reed & Spike Huber (STL Vol 10) Dick The Bruiser vs Ken Patera - Missouri Title (STL Vol 10) Ken Patera & Dory Funk Jr. vs Ric Flair & Crusher Blackwell (STL Vol 11) Ken Patera vs Ron Sexton (STL Vol 12) Dan G Patera & Valentine vs. Brown & Hutchinson (Mike Rogers S23)

Great stuff, Khawk. The title change should or shouldn't be on there? I would think if it exists it needs to be on there given the importance? John

John

1987-88 WWF Run 04/23/87 Ken Patera vs Hercules - New Haven: 05/16/87 Superstars 05/02/87 Ken Patera vs Honkytonk Man - Boston 05/17/87 Ken Patera vs Honkytonk Man - Toronto 05/18/87 Ken Patera vs Honkytonk Man - MSG 06/20/87 Patera & Hogan vs Race & Hercules - Spectrum 10/07/87 Patera & Muraco & Haynes vs Orton & Islanders - Green Bay: 10/29/87 PTW 11/07/87 Patera & Haynes vs Demolition - Boston 11/07/87 Patera & Haynes vs Demolition - Spectrum 01/06/88 Patera & Haynes vs Race & Hercules - Nashville: 01/18/88 PTW 02/22/88 Ken Patera vs Demolition Ax - MSG 05/27/88 Ken Patera vs Dino Bravo - MSG 06/18/88 Ken Patera vs Dino Bravo - Spectrum 06/21/88 Patera & JYD vs Bravo & Bass - Glens Falls: 07/11/88 PTW 07/14/88 Ken Patera vs Greg Valentine - Cedar Rapids: 07/25/88 PTW 08/29/88 Ken Patera vs Bad News Brown - MSG: SummerSlam 09/10/88 Ken Patera vs The Big Bossman - Boston 09/24/88 Ken Patera vs The Big Bossman - Spectrum 10/25/88 Ken Patera vs Dino Bravo - Baltimore: SNME (quicky) 11/05/88 Ken Patera vs The Red Rooster - Boston 11/15/88 Ken Patera vs Ron Bass - San Francisco: 12/05/88 PTW 11/17/88 Ken Patera vs Bad News Brown - Los Angels

1984-85 WWF Run 08/25/84 Ken Patera vs Pat Patterson - MSG 09/22/84 Ken Patera vs Rick McGraw - MSG 10/13/84 Ken Patera vs Tony Garea - Spectrum 10/22/84 Ken Patera vs Rocky Johnson - MSG 11/26/84 Ken Patera vs David Sammartino - MSG 12/01/84 Ken Patera vs Jose Luis Rivera - Spectrum 01/21/85 Ken Patera vs Andre the Giant - MSG 03/17/85 Patera & Studd & Ventura vs Andre & Snuka & Junkyard Dog - MSG 05/20/85 Ken Patera vs Tony Atlas - MSG 05/18/85 Ken Patera vs Tony Garea - Boston 05/25/85 Hulk Hogan vs Ken Patera - Spectrum 05/26/85 Ken Patera vs Paul Orndorff - Toronto: 06/11/85 PTW

1980 WWF Run 01/12/80 Ken Patera vs. Ivan Putski - Spectrum 01/21/80 Ken Patera vs Bob Backlund - MSG 02/18/80 Ken Patera vs. Bob Backlund - MSG 03/01/80 Ken Patera vs Dominic DeNucci - Spectrum 03/24/80 Patera & Duncum vs Andre & Patterson - MSG 04/12/80 Ken Patera vs Rene Gouelt - Spectrum 04/21/80 Ken Patera vs Pat Patterson - MSG 05/10/80 Ken Patera vs Ivan Putski - Spectrum 05/19/80 Ken Patera vs. Bob Backlund - MSG 06/16/80 Ken Patera vs Pat Patterson - MSG 06/21/80 Ken Patera vs Bob Backlund - Spectrum 07/26/80 Ken Patera vs Bob Backlund - Spectrum 08/23/80 Ken Patera vs Gorilla Monsoon - Spectrum 10/11/80 Ken Patera vs Andre the Giant - Spectrum 10/20/80 Ken Patera vs Pedro Morales - MSG 11/08/80 Ken Patera vs Bruno Sammartino - Spectrum 12/08/80 Ken Patera vs Pedro Morales - MSG 12/13/80 Ken Patera vs Bruno Sammartino - Spectrum 12/29/80 Ken Patera vs Pat Patterson - MSG

1977-78 WWF Run 01/17/77 Bruno Sammartino vs Ken Patera - MSG 02/07/77 Bruno Sammartino vs Ken Patera - MSG 03/07/77 Bruno Sammartino vs Ken Patera - MSG 03/28/77 Patera & Stasiak vs Putski & Zbyzsko - MSG 04/25/77 Ken Patera vs Tony Garea - MSG 05/16/77 Ken Patera vs Chief Jay Strongbow - MSG 06/04/77 Bruno Sammartino vs Ken Patera - Spectrum 06/27/77 Patera & Volkoff vs Andre Strongbow - MSG 07/09/77 Bruno Sammartino vs. Ken Patera - Spectrum 08/01/77 Ken Patera vs Chief Jay Strongbow - MSG 08/29/77 Bruno Sammartino vs Ken Patera - MSG 09/26/77 Patera & Stasiak & Albano vs Strongbow & Garea & Zbyzsko - MSG 11/21/77 Ken Patera vs Dewey Robertson - MSG 01/23/78 Ken Patera vs Chief Jay Strongbow - MSG 02/20/78 Ken Patera vs Peter Miavia - MSG 03/20/78 Patera & Fuji & Tanaka vs Andre & Rhodes & Mascaras - MSG 03/25/78 Bruno Sammartino vs Ken Patera - Spectrum 04/24/78 Ken Patera vs Larry Zbyszko - MSG 05/22/78 Bob Backlund vs Ken Patera - MSG 06/26/78 Ken Patera vs Mil Mascaras - MSG

After watching some of his stuff in the WWF in 1980, he really was a top notch hell at the time. He might make for a good comp. I'm wondering what's out there of him. Couple of posts on his WWF stuff. No complete as I have looked at all the yearly stuff on Graham's site for 1984-85 and 1987-88. But it hits the bigger house shows (MSG, Philly, Boston) and Prime Time. It might be interesting to point KHawk in here for AWA recommendations. There is some New Japan stuff, which I'll have to dig through. He worked in STL and Mid Atlantic. John