jdw

Here are his opponent in 1987, with a date of an early singles match and a late singles match in the series (old spreadsheet, I haven't check Graham's site for newer matches he's found): 11/30/86 - 06/27/87 Kamala 02/16/87 - 03/21/87 Herc 05/02/87 - 10/03/87 Race 05/23/87 - 08/16/87 Savage 07/08/87 - 11/14/87 Khan 08/27/87 - 01/17/88 One Man Gang 08/23/87 - 03/13/88 DiBiase (and picked up after the movie) Kamala of course was from the prior year, while OMG and Ted dragged into the next year. I included Herc since he basically was the Kamala Alternative Opponent leading into Mania. I didn't include Jake, who got a trio of matches in late 86 / early 87 before he turned... almost like they were trying it out. One thing is shows is that similar to 1984/85 there's still a lot of overlap going on. The tail of the Kamala feud is still going on while Race and Savage are heating up. Khan is popping up while Race and Savage are still going around, and then still getting matches while OMG and Ted are popping up. We think of Ted & Andre vs Hogan being an all consuming feud for Hulk in the second half of 1987 into 1988, but there's OMG getting a pretty fair number of matches right in the middle of one of Hogan's most famous feuds. Like I've said... I would have loved to see how they blocked this (and frankly all their talent working multiple rivalries) out on the Big Board. John

In 1984-85 there were places to go, and some places a bit desperate for talent. By 1986 there was nothing. The thing is the Vince was (i) running 2-3 crews, (ii) needed talent to fill it, and (iii) wanted to keep guys. So even after Muraco faded down the cards post-IC Title, Vince kept him, moved him into some Hogan matches in 1985, ran the Steamboat feud, etc. If you're Don in 1985, there wasn't a huge incentive to move. In earlier times, he might have headed to the AWA to be a challenger for Martel's World Title, building off the fact of the two IC runs and twice being at world title challenger level against Backlund. Or... gone somewhere else. It really wasn't just a bunch of guys who happened to be around. Studd and Orndorff were his primary challengers, still getting title shots in Nov/Dec. In fact, they'd get them into the following year as well. The were pushed against Hogan. Behind them, Shultz and Sheik and Valentine got the most challenges. Shultz was pushed against Hogan, and Sheik was always old reliable off the title change. Valentine got shots until his focus was eaten up with Tito. The thing is that they were running a lot of new towns, balancing out between what had run in some towns with what hadn't in others. They had long had this issue with MSG getting the bite at Challengers usually before the rest of the territory, then it moving outward... while MSG shifted to the next challenger. When you expand as widely at the WWF did in 1984-85, boom goes being able to juggle this stuff. We still had that into 1986: MSG got Savage in 12/85, 01/86 & 02/86, but his overall series with Savage elsewhere extend prior to that and after it. I've talked in the past about how interesting it would be to see the Big Board where the WWF Office was blocking out their various feuds and who was doing what where. JCP in 1986 would have been interesting as well. Anyway... What you had starting around the time of the Orndorff feud was: * Hogan working a bit more flexible of a schedule (fewer dates, though not as few as later) * him getting programmed into Primary Feuds The first made it a bit easier to schedule him with having to say, "We're done with Savage in New York but it's still his primary feud... who the hell are we going to run him with on this MSG card before the Orndorff turn... aw crap... well... let's give him Adonis." Or Muraco... or Studd for the 100th time, etc. The second item made it a bit easier to see who he was primarily working a feud with. Orndorff, then Kamala getting heated up, then... You quickly find it isn't a rule even into 1987. As Kamala is on the tail end, he's got: * Herc Off the SNME match the year before making Herc someone you could roll out against Hogan... and he was rolled out a good deal. * Race Focused in some parts of the country... but we didn't get it here in LA * Savage We got him out here Post-Mania with very little behind it other than the local promos if I recall... and it's suprising just how many Hogan-Savage matches there were in 1987 before the turn. * Khan There are a good number, but it's mixed in with... * OMG ... and... * Ted That wonderful focus of the Orndorff and then Kamala feuds just fades as 1987 goes on and Hogan is facing 5 different guys after Mania, and Herc a decent number of times before. I'd have to look a little closer at 1988 because that's a bit off due to Savage, and Savage going heel late in it (things like Savage-Warrior being randomly tossed out). 1988 for Hogan was focused at the start (Ted/Andre-centric), then the long time off with the movie. When he returned, it was really scattershot until he settled down into the Bossman feud. 1989 is a bit more focused with Hogan: Savage for a massive chunk of the year, a little legacy Bossman after Mania, Perfect at the end of the year, a little Bad News mixed in. The 1991-92 end run of Hogan's dynastic run was largely focused: Slaughter, Flair, and Sid (in tags) heading into Mania. Again, his even more limited schedule working largely weekends allowed for it to be so easy... and stretch out Savage all the way ti *October* in 1989. It's a bit stop-start. Just when you think the world is nice ordered (1986-87 Orndorff + Kamala run), it goes haywire again. I think in 1989 after Mania it becomes much more clear for the rest of his time with the WWF through Mania in 1992. But his limited schedule, and another trip off to make a movie, really alters him from being a full time worker that they need to juggle feuds around on (due to working cities multiple times) to being one much easier to book. 1987 was as well. It's hard when Hogan's main rival (Andre at Mania & Survivor in 1987, then The Main Event + Mania + SummerSlam in 1988) isn't going around the house show circuit with him. They have to juggle around other guys. Orndorff Turn + Kamala Run is a nice calm period... unless we look too closely at when Andre-Hogan started their storyline/program. You've got poor Kamala going around the house show circuit all the way through June 1987, and Hogan-Andre just swamps him. John

There is something that seems to be causing "lag" on the board. It's pretty evident when typing a post, especially longer posts. I'm not seeing it elsewhere, or even when just reading things elsewhere. Feels like some script is running that's slowing the browser down, and "typing lag" sets in. I'm one Firefox, which handles that stuff better than IE. It's strange...

My thing on the Villan of the Week/Month is probably this: I was trying to get across in the first post that there was an Era Change in what happened to opponents Post Challenge in the Backlund Era to the Hogan Era. In the Backlund Era, these guys (such as Duncam) would do their title spots, maybe have some stuff down the card, and head out of the WWF. Someone like Ivan might stick around for 8 months, work something else, but they would be moved out and go somewhere else. In the Hogan Era, they stuck around. A long time. Here are the 1984 challengers. I may be missing one or two, but I doubt it changes this much: Masked Superstar Shiek Orndorff Studd Schultz Valentine Steele Orton Kamala Ventura Fuji Piper Volkoff Beefcake Afa Sika Rex (TV) Valiant (TV) Chung Lee (TV) Looking at them... * Masked Superstar He was a Backlund legacy, and these small number of matches may simply have been Hogan taking over the dates. He did leave. * Shiek Transition/bridge champ. He stayed forever... or at least until being fat, lazy and an addict made Vince let him go. But he even came back after that. Anyway, he stayed for many years. * Orndorff Stayed for years. Title shots into 1985. Face turn. Major heel turn and more title shots. It's highly likely he would have stayed for years beyond 1987 if he didn't get hurt during the Hogan feud and lose the Mr Wonderful body. Vince was a massive mark of his up to that point. * Studd Came into the WWF well before Hogan's run, some matches with Backlund but not a major feud, then stuck around. Major opponent for Andre, and then long time regular "safe" challenger for Hogan. They just loved running this, and if we had a compete record of Hogan in the WWF, we might find that only Savage had more singles title matches with him. Stuck around until 1986. * Schultz Not long for the world, but that really was his own doing on some level. He's a bit of the exception. * Valentine Stuck around for years, strong push into 1986. * Steele A bit of the role he had for years in the WWF, working part time, before getting the bigger push opposite Savage in 1986-87. * Orton Stuck around for years. * Kamala Brought in as a feud for Andre, which Kamala appears to have walked away from before it was over. One known throwaway match against Hogan in Hartford. Not even a true Villan of the Month for Hogan - just a fluke match, in contrast to the 1987 feud. * Ventura Stuck around forever. His health prevented him from wrestling more, and transitioned to the booth. It's safe to say that if he didn't have the health issues, he would have worked fulltime and then part-time for a long time. * Fuji Joke opponent. * Piper They kept them apart until October, and then few singles matches. Even as his singles matches were going on with Hogan, his major feud was the Snuka one. It wasn't even like Piper was tied into a lot of Hogans' challengers - he had his own feud going on. There's some Orton and Orndorff, but not really as much in 1984 as people thinkg in the sense of it tying into Piper all the time. Anyway, Piper stuck around the WWF for ages when not doing the movie thing. * Volkoff Stayed for years. * Beefcake Stayed for years, only leaving with Hogan. * Afa * Sika Throwaways. * Rex (TV) * Valiant (TV) * Chung Lee (TV) Not terribly relevant. * * * * The original point that Kevin was making was on the Post Challenge of Backlund and Hogan's opponents. I tried to get across that it's a hard comp for two reasons, one of which is the company changed due to those opponents sticking around in the Hogan Era for a long time. That might create an illusion that the opponents "gained" more from facing Hogan because they stuck around, but I was trying to get across that might be due to them simply sticking around for years on end. Orton stuck around for years. Did he gain anything from his relatively small number of challenges of Hogan? Probably not. He gained a good deal by standing next to Piper on The Pit, having a cool gimmick (the Cast), being involved in Piper's programs for more than a year, and constantly being part of the WWF Product. Was Valentine helped or hurt by his matches with Hogan? Doesn't seem to have been hurt. But this was a pretty big key: 09/24/84 - 07/06/85 Intercontinental Champ 08/24/85 - 04/07/86 WWF Tag Champ He spent a year and a half as IC/Tag Champ in a key expansion period as that saw the WWF opening up a lot of towns/markets. That stuff just didn't happen in the 1978-82 Backlund Era. The exceptions were face turns: Pat and Snuka. In 1983 we started to see the change: Studd and Muraco were two heels who stuck around for years. [slaughter from 1983 was similar to Pat and Snuka as a face turn.] But that's also a period of Expansion starting to be thought about, and by 1984 it hit. Would Studd and Muraco have stuck around through 1984... and all the way into 1986 (for Studd) and beyond (Don) if the promotion didn't expand? Or in Studd's case if Hogan didn't become champ, with Studd being a natural (and favorite) opponent for him? It doesn't seem likely. Instead, the 1983 runs of Studd and Muraco would have been something similar to Patera's close-to-year long run in 1980. Expansion changed how long opponents stuck around post-challenge, and likely created an illusion to how the Challenge impacted them. With Backlund, we see they're not up to much, are gone... so they were depushed / moved down the cards. With Hogan, they stuck around forever after. Except... Not a lot of them got anything like the push they had against Hogan. Some moved down quickly. They may, like Muraco in 1985, have found a hot new feud. But those really weren't main event feuds. A few like Valentine moved "down" but to that secondary belt level where they would main event non-Hogan shows. Good push... not Hogan Opponent level push, but good push. Eventually that would fade as well. Most tended to move down like OMG: stuck around for years as a character, but really wasn't pushed at the top parts of the card.

I'm not entirely sold on that. Trip's "performer" contract has a minimum of $1M. That was the one signed in January 2012 when he'd transitioned away from fulltime work and into the office (the EVP gig was handed to him the prior August). You honestly think that Cena's isn't more, while working fulltime? If it is, he has a really stupid agent... John

According to real estate listings, he paid $2.15 million for his home in 2010 (about a year before his current deal, maybe more, maybe less) and gets rent from the tattoo shop that's in the storefront on the ground floor. He's said many times he paid cash. He didnt have to give any second thoughts to cutting Joey Mercury a six figure check when he was gonna lose his house. Aside from the home, he lives very frugally. If he has high 7 figures in the bank, he could easily live off that for good. $2.5M for his house is frugal? And that he had $2.5M laying around in cash a year before his main even run? Yeah... John

If this isn't a work, Punk will sit on the sidelines, wait for the inevitable injury to Cena or whoever else major they're pushing huge opposite Cena, and use the WWE panicking to find someone to leverage a significant increase in his new/next contract. For all the talk of Punk having FU Money, what he really has is more likely "I Don't Need To Work For A Long While" money. Even is he's been smart and prudent and non-extravagant with his money (which all reports indicate), he's 35 years old, if he lives to 80 that's 45 years... and 45 years with no fresh income is a long time. If he's been paying into SS, it's been capped at around $108K of his wages... but since he's not technically on payroll, who knows how workers pay into that, and how many eventually get it. If he's set the max into retirement funds for tax purposes, he can't touch that for a while without penalty, and if he's as prudent/smart as people say, he's not going to do that. If he paid cash for his pad, that's smart on a level for avoiding a mortgage if he was able to afford it... but there also went a sizable chunk of his income. If he didn't, then he has a mortgage trailing out into the future. Etc. If he's smart/prudent as we all think, he knows these are his big income years. Not everyone is Taker where they can get a big payday in the mid-40s. Austin was broken down. Bret was. Shawn went out for ages. Lets of other top guys simply had time pass them by. If he really wants total FU money, he'll play this like Bret did in 1996, or Jericho on a much lower level has over the years. The WWE will always at some point need someone. Play it right, and his new contract is rather large. Add in that with the leverage, he can make the concerns about PPV vs Network go away: big downside base guarantee. John

Amazing to remember how great Vince was back then. Mr. McMahon is totally played out a decade plus later, but lordy was he terrific then.

Did anyone post this in another thread? http://www.tmz.com/2014/01/29/matt-hardy-a...mug-shots-brawl

Not sure if I agree with either the "no changes" thing, or the Super Villan / Villan of the Month thing. The era post expansion was quite a bit different in the opportunities to heels. Ivan had a decent run in the WWF in 1978/79. Setting aside TV tapings (which were usually done while the heel was still finishing up his run elsewhere), his known start was 08/28/78 at MSG and his known end was 04/28/79 in Philly. Exactly 8 months, which is a pretty decent run. He worked 8 MSG cards, 6 Philly cards, etc. His entire run was tied around finishing up his run against Bob: started that first MSG card, and his last match against Backlund was on a small house show a week before that last Philly appearance. But he since he was working essentially fulltime with the WWF, he was given other matches. The last 6 MSG matches were against folks other than Backlund, and pretty clearly a "phase down" before getting paired with Bruno on his exit. His run in Boston was just Bob, in Baltimore is was Bob plus dropping down to Putski after. Etc. Good run, ran it's course, got some feature matches against Dusty (who worked the WWF here and there) and Bruno. But it still was just 8 months. In contrast, Studd debuted at house shows at the 01/23/83 MSG card. Right in against Backlund. Then he moved onto others, like Andre and a turned Snuka. He was still in the company the following year when Hogan came in, and got paired there... and of course still with Andre. Studd was still in the company in late 1986, nearly 4 full years *straight* with the company. He was still getting the occasional title shot against Hogan in 1986. Studd is hardly the only one. I mentioned Muraco. His 1981 run was Bob-centric, with a Pedro off shot... largely going over Pedro to have WWF Champ vs IC Champ. He was working opposite Bob a week after his house show debut (June MSG), and his last known match on that run was against Bob. We remember the Pedro because the title changed hands twice. When he returned at the end of 1982, it was the same thing: work with Bob, get the belt from Pedro, work stronger with Bob... and then... Muraco was still working in the WWF in late 1988. He did use the second run with Bob to get stronger established as a "top heel", and had those feuds with Rocky and Snuka. Then... he stayed around forever. Some feuds, like the Tito one and the Steamboat one. Got the odd trio of matches at MSG against Hogan. I think if we looked at Bob's challengers prior to the 1983, and comp them with Hogan's, we'll see Hogan's sticking around for ages. Guys like Kamala are exceptions to the rule, and frankly he left for his own reasons pissed at Vince rather than the WWF not having a slot for him. The ones in Bob's era that stuck around for a long time weren't that long, unless they flipped like Pat. * * * * * On the Super Villan / Villan of the Month thing, not sure I agree. Longer post at some other time.

With Dibiase their was always the story of this would be the gimmick Vince would use for himself if he was a wrestler. So Ted had that to keep him in the mix as opposed to a Terry Funk type of wrestler for the WWF. That's why I put him down in the Oddball category. He was a guy that Vince/The WWF loved, so they always gave him something to do. You could pair him off with people, like the Dusty feud. On a level, he was like Jake. Vince & Co liked him. They could always give him something to do. Jake really wasn't often a main eventer, and oddly never got paired with Hogan for a major feud. But he was very much part of the "WWF Product" that Vince could push, and people knew him. On the flip side, Ted's run on top really was Hogan-to-Savage, and after that was down a level... or two. Unlike Savage, he didn't come out of that run a Bigger Star. Instead, it was kind of proved he couldn't win the WWF title, and time to move on to other things.

It's a bit harder because the power is spread out. If Will Smith thinks the head of Disney is an asshole, he'll go to Fox. Same with TV, music, etc. We'd have to look at niches. Carson was a King for close to 30 years because nothing was bigger in that time slot and niche than Johnny. If you got on the wrong side of him, he wouldn't book you. That was important in some fields, like Comedians. More so in the 60 and 70s than in the 80s when things like HBO came up to get you over. But still... there was power if Johnny wanted to abuse the shit out of it. He didn't to the degree that he could have. Ed Sullivan was pretty powerful. Might not have been a 15 year run on top without much comp, but at his peak he was powerful. Things like the Smoothers Brothers helped break it, and then the genre kind of dying other than Carol Burnett (who did a different type of "variety" show). I suspect some folks who know Country Music much better than I, and the history of it, can point to some major Gate Keepers of country music. The Opry was very powerful in the radio and early TV era. There might have been a key make/break radio station/program/DJ at some point. For sure there have been things like Broadway Critics who have how power/influence back when it matter. Even worse: asshole food critics whose review could kill/make restaurants back in the day. Jim Nantz today is something a 2000 Pound Gorilla at CBS, covering what ever the hell he wants, in the role that he wants. The irony is that CBS ran Musburger out of town for being the same thing and having too much power, then within a few years created Nantz. It's a different kind of power than say Trip, but guys like Simms and Faldo would be gone if they crossed Nantz. Hmm... The NFL is pretty much Vince & Trip rolled into one. In fact, Vince & Trip have dick on them. At times it's been the commish who holds almost all of the power. Rozelle's "League Think" made them all so much money that the owners ceded loads of power to him, while he was also great at making all of them happy (with the exception of Davis). He laid the foundation for the relationships with the networks (multiple networks rather than just 1). Tags was able to exploit the power of the NFL even more with the Networks, as I think a lot of us can recall ESPN cancelling a series that drew well simply because the NFL told them to... with the implied "We can always find some other cable channel to carry our games in the next contract" laying behind it. Tags always looked like a college professor, and since Rozelle's power was so well know, I don't think most people got how powerful and shrew Tags was. Anway, Goodell is a big fellow, looks like he might knock your block off, so people have always thought he was willing to strong arm folks. Anyway... the NFL does whatever it wants, and everyone ducks for cover from it. Even college football. The NFL has been going it for longer than Trip, just that they get a new "promoter" every 20 or so years.

More likely no one will be a bigger draw until they're so over the company can't help it. That was the case with Austin. While they had hopes for Rock long term, he got there faster than they thought (the NOD tapped into a better side of him) and he took off. Their plans for Foley evolved over time, but they never projected it for the level it reached in the series with Rock that it did. Of course there is a slight change: Trip had hoped to get the spot that all three of those guys did, and they beat him to it while he was stuck below them. He didn't have power then. He does have power now, and has for more than a decade. And we know what started happening after he got power. John

Rock worked with Trip because he was booked to. He really didn't give a shit one way or another. It's one of the reasons he kept his sanity during his original run with the company. Mick worked with Trip because he was booked to. It was a big money feud that fed Mick's ego as well as wallet. He really didn't give a shit about helping Trip get over, regardless of what he might have written and said over the years. He's certainly proud of the fact that he helped get over someone who hadn't been very over to that level the year before... to the degree that he tends to forget the Vince part just prior to him, and focus on he & Rock getting him over. Steph? She was fucking him. Regardless of how they spin the myth now. It was also her big chance to get over in a big storyline. Do we really think she was doing it nobly for the good of the company? Vince? A total egofuck. The folks who came up with the idea knew it. Getting Vince into an angle was a great way to get the thumbs up for it. It was also the period where he loved to "wrestle" and take more of an ass kicking then most to prove he was a tough guy. So... no, those four weren't doing it to put over Trip and for the good of the company. Some not giving a shit, some money in the pocket, and a whole lot of egofucking. People not getting put over is one of the long running stories of the Trip Era. We've all run it into the ground... to the point that it was a cliche/meme between us a decade ago. :/ That doesn't mean it's not true, but it's par for the course. John

Dave does understand that Pro Wrestling is not "Sports Events"? John

People coming off Hogan challenges was also a bit mixed. Savage did really well, but he also was Savage. He was just one of those guys that no matter how many times Hogan beat him, it didn't seem to kill him until perhaps the Buster Douglas one. Even after that, Savage remained over, but his stuff like Savage-Flair and Savage-Jake didn't really draw well despite what we think were good/memorable angles/storylines. You'd have Backland-esque examples like Big Bossman, who got "over" to a big degree with his Hogan feud, and stayed "over" with his face turn. I use quotes because we all know Bossman was an over and well remembered wrestler from the era, and of all the cartoon characters of the era, is one of the few that really overcame it. That said, he never drew again like he did with Hogan, and really didn't have any high on the card feuds/matches in that first run that stand out as being Big. The run with Hogan helped him, and the turn did as well. But Hogan was Hogan when it came to drawing, and he never got that same thing again. In the other direction... On Orndorff's first run, after the initial jobs to Hogan what got/kept him over to a degree was Piper: first with him, then the unending feud against him. He was spinning his wheels to a degree after that, but the company had The Turn in the works by June 1986. Orndorff was one of Hogan's best/strongest opponents in his 1986 run. He had nothing major after that. Funk and Kamala had pretty much nothing after Hogan. Bundy was never really the same after Wrestlemania, and you almost get the sense that Vince knew something since that feud wasn't as big around the horn as you'd think. Race was something of a throwaway feud, so it's hard to rate. OMG didn't get anything out of the feud with Hogan, and quickly got repackaged into a comedy heel. Then there are some oddballs... Dibiase is tricky. He got elevated opposite Hogan, but the Screw Job + Buying The Title + Macho Feud had a storyline path that transitioned/sustained Ted past Hogan. He stuck around the WWF for years after the Macho feud, but he pretty much faded down the cards similar to a Backlund challenger. Since it was the post-territory days, they did more to keep him over as a wrestler/character, so he got feuds like with Dusty and Virgil, and got the Tag Titles. But his really strong main event run was 1987-88 against Hogan and then Savage, pretty much the title related stuff. They oddly didn't try to re-heat in a major way against Warrior in 1990 or against Bret in 1992/93. So... it's hard. The stuff with Hogan, especially The Double Hebners, made him a national star. But like Bossman, he dropped down and stuck around. There were a number of "big men" like Studd who would bounce around between Hogan and Andre, and were to a degree kept strong due to that. When they ran their course, they were of next to no value to the company and faded (Bundy to a degree). Piper... who knows what to make of him. Piper was pushed strongly as a heel before getting paired with Hogan, there was a ton invested in him rather than being brought in specifically to point towards Hogan. He had the Snuka thing, which went on forever even with Jimmy zoning in and out. The feud with Hogan was just odd as there never was that clear blow off with Hogan beating him. They also didn't face each other in singles as much we all think. But they did have the two big matches in 1985, and Piper then transitioned from that into the unending feud with Orndorff. Then the movies came. There really isn't an equiv for Backlund like that, unless it was Larry Z: a ton invested in the Bruno feud, an odd feud with Bob, and no real blow off to it. Larry and Piper were both quirky about their status, and left before we could see long term plans. Piper certainly wasn't hurt by his association with Hogan, and it was one of the things that made him iconic in the era along with The Pit. Hogan looks a bit different from Backlund in this regard because (i) the era change made the WWF keep guys longer as "part of the show", and (ii) Savage. The company was invested to a degree in keeping guys, moving them around the 3 crews they ran, keeping them over at least as "part of the product" even if it was akin to them keeping Koko over.

The post-challenge thing for Hogan Opponents and Backlund Opponents is an interesting one. I think there's a lot of truth in the Backlund side, though (i) there are exceptions, and (ii) it might be an era thing. On the exceptions, there aren't a ton but some come to mind. Patera continued to be a strong heel through the rest of the year, with the Atlas feud (which sadly didn't get an MSG or Philly match) and the Bruno matches being pretty good. The Pedro feud was limited in terms of quality by Pedro, but it was over. Muraco's first run was focused on Bob: he got the IC title from Pedro to build him up, and then dropped it back to Pedro when he'd run his course with Bob. On the other hand... the *started* his push in 1983 the same way: take the IC from Pedro to set him up for Bob. But once the Bob feud ran it's course, Muraco stayed pretty much the top heel in the WWF with the feuds against Rocky and Snuka. It didn't hurt him, and perhaps helped him as he really got over in 1983. Patterson had life after Backlund, though a large part of that was going face against Patera. That's the interesting thing of some post-challenge guys: Patterson (1979 feud) turned face, Snuka (1982) turned face, Sarge (1983) turned face. Patterson got over very well, while Snuka and Sarge got over really well. But those are a pair of exceptions, and a trio of turn-induced exceptions. If you look through the list of MSG and Philly challengers, it's not a lot of guys who carved out strong slots on cards after their run with Bob. Which gets to the other side: a fair amount of this is the era. Ivan came in, challenged, dropped down to a pair with others, had some renewal of the old feud with Bruno, and then moved to other territories. He came back, and the same thing happened. Valentine came in to face Bob in 1979, moved down, had that feud with Strongbow, had some stuff with Bruno, then went back to the Carolinas. He came back in 1981, faced Bob, moved down to Pedro, farted around a bit, then went back to the Carolinas. Slaughter came to the WWF in 1980, did some stuff with Bob, did some stuff with Pedro, worked with Andre, worked with Bruno, had the feud with Patterson and then went back to the Carolinas. He was pushed hard there, then came back for another run with Backlund in 1983... and by the time that run finished, the world changed. A lot of challengers are just passing through, such as Blackwell, Brower, Great Hossien, Duncum, Hansen, Khan, Mosca, Adonis, etc. It very much was the territorial days vibe of being brought in, built up to draw on top, then moved down and out. There wasn't always the incentive to "sustain" a top heel past drawing with Bob. If they had a secondary feud like Valentine vs Strongbow, they'd give a reason to heat it up. If it was Valentine vs Dom or Valentine vs Garea, there really isn't the incentive to go balls out on it. Hogan in the next one...

Vince made a lot of panic moves. Bret-Shawn --> Taker-Sid + Shawn's Smile Bye-Bye is certainly one of them. Giving the belt to Bret the first time was a panic move. Signing Bret to the big contract was a panic move. Fake Diesel & Fake Razor was one. We probably could come up with a dozen or two.

That is suspiciously similar to some other video in the past 6 months or so where someone lost their shit like that over something or other. John

Don't know if this was posted: http://deadspin.com/dude-is-so-pissed-bati...mble-1510306413

Even if they can turn Bryan being over into popping 1 good PPV buyrate (or now getting 100K additional people to buy the Network), it's worth it to the WWE. He's on the roster. They're already paying him. He's "over" to a degree. I'm far from the biggest Bryan mark, and tend to be amused by how much people lost their shit over him getting "screwed over" similar to people last year getting all pissed off when Punk lost at the Rumble after being given the longest WWF Title reign since Hogan 1 ended in 1988. So I've got nothing invested in enjoying his work or his character. Just that... if he's over to this degree, it's the WWE's job to get him over to where he does help move the needle. There's also something of a false notion that the company can only have 1 or 2 folks who do that. At the peak of the company, Austin moved things... Rock moved things... Foley moved things... Vince moved things. They eventually got to a point where Trip & Steph were strong in 2000. Given how many they cranked out in a short period of time, they've been rather poor about it since. John

He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I mean that Dylan's point was to parody and possibly mock the post that NL made in the Rey thread about a single instance of boos affecting his legacy. Check. Didn't see the Rey thread.

Okay. We'll ignore someone who, in 1999, was dialed into the WWF's decision making process. They actually took a rather sharp drop for 3 of the 4 Raw's between No Mercy (where fans expected/hoped for Austin winning it back) and Survivor Series. Hard to blame MNF entirely for it, since it started back up on 9/13, which lined up with Raw coming back from the "US Open Pre-Emps"), and was doing a pretty consistent 6.0-ish rating before dropping down to 5.5 level leading into Survivors. That's what caused a panic. ? Main Events - I'm going by taping date rather than air date, along with the house shows between No Mercy and Survivors. 11/15 Raw: Bossman vs Rock (#1 contenders match) 11/16 SD: The Rock vs Bossman 11/20 Toronto: Rock vs Bossman (on last) / Big Show vs Triple H 11/21 Montreal: Rock vs Trip (on last) / Big Show vs Big Bossman 11/22 Raw: Triple H vs Acolyte 11/23 SD: Triple H & X-Pac vs Test & Shane McMahon 11/26 San Jose: The Rock vs Triple H (on last) / Big Show vs Bossman 11/27 San Francisco: Rock vs Bossman (on last) / Big Show vs Triple H 11/27 Sacramento: Show vs Bossman (on last) / Rock vs Triple H 11/29 Raw: X-Pac & NAO vs Rock & Kane & Mankind + of course the Wedding) 11/30 SD: Big Show & Hardyz vs X-Pac & NAO 12/04 MSG: Rock & Mankind vs NAO (on last) / Big Show vs Triple H 12/05 Albany: Show vs Bossman (cage) (middle of show) 12/05 Hartford: The Rock vs Triple H (middle of show) -- note: split crews for the two shows 12/06 Raw: Rock & Mankind vs Al Snow & Chris Jericho 12/07 SD: Kane vs Triple H Rock is the "main event", as everyone knew at the time. Whoever he faced tended to be in the main event, be it Bossman, Trip or the NAO. It's kind of funny to see Trip vs Show in the same mid-card spot as Show vs Bossman. It's basically how the WWF worked in those days: double main event, split them apart a bit on the card. Do you honestly think the WWF was going to put Vince anywhere else? The other amazing thing happened: it was a "hot" program that helped get Trip over. Which was kinda sorta exactly my point: Pair him with Vince & Steph, and he got over. Pair him with Steph & Mick, and he got to another level. Pair him with Rock and the Entire McMahon Clan heading into and out of Mania, and he got over to another level. Prior to that? He was bombing. The feud in its original form ran it's course, and ratings were declining after Austin failed to get the title. The "kidnapping" happened before he dropped the title. It drew shitty ratings. But they had a plan, it involved Vince & Steph, and do you really think an egofuck of that level was going to get called off? That was a joke. Actually thought it through back when it happened. John