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And I can't hammer this enough: it's not you, Jon. You know how many of your articles I've given the thumbs up for and compliments, even ones you've taken shit for. It's Paul, who I continue to find the least interesting and insightful (in terms of what he shares and says) of the Most Interesting Men In Wrestling.

I didn't see comparing promos to sex. There was the foreplay stuff was in angles and storylines and booking (i.e. Dreamer pinning Raven). Which I thought was kind of an "eh" way of putting something obvious that even internet idiots like us know: of course you need to figure out when to give the fans payoffs to things. I have to say, not through any fault of your own, I was bored by his answers before I even finished the first one. The best example is the Ross one: "I think the most honest statement that I can give about Jim Ross's legacy in this industry is blah blah blah nothing nothing nothing zzzzzzzzzz...." Absolutely fucking useless response on Ross that gives us nothing insightful beyond what we knew. It was kind of like an oil executive asked a question by Congress that he doesn't really want to answer, rambles a bit while looking at the clock out of the corner of his eye to figure out to keep track of when he's run out the clock on this Congressman's time. When you read that, if your eyes don't glaze over or you don't check out to read another article, one thought tends to pop into your head: "Well if that's Paul's honest statement oh JR, I'd rather read him go off on a dishonest rant instead." Again, no fault of your own, Jon. It's Paul...

You get the feeling that he first jerked off thinking about work-shoot-fabe angles in pro wrestling as a 12 year old.

The Frank Gifford one, since Harley probably would get the references.

CNN is just a news channel, and one who has shrunk massively over time. When we were kids and there were just the Big 3 Networks + Several Strong Locals + Several Local Jobber Channels, PBS was a strong channel. Their anchor relative to the rest was strong kids programing with Sesame Street, Mr. Rogers, Electric Company, etc. Prime Time they were a niche, but would have some strong things for the UK and be high brow. The had other niche programing like cooking shows. It was a solid channel, high in quality. Now it's gotten hammered. Pretty much every strength they had now has competitors on other channels in every niche. A whole cooking channel sprung up. Their core science and nature documentary stuff like Nova and Nature has been hammed by stuff like the National Geographic Channel with Discovery and other competing as well. History documentaries like Ken Burn's stuff and American Masters have had things like History Channel pop up and loads of others. The PBS Newshour no longer has just CNN to compete with for News+Discussion format, but Fox and MSNBC. Kids programing... things like Nick and Disney have popped up. And the UK programing started popping up on channels like A&E rather than just PBS. John

Anyway... Don't mean to hijack this. Just that Tanahashi-Luv has a vibe of Morishima-Luv, though Tanahashi's has more Charisma & Ace-dom to it.

I think it was more than just the NJPW/NOAH fanboy-types driving the pimping of Morishima and Tanahashi. I mean... I don't think they'd get this out of Loss because he really doesn't read those folks: "Morishima is fine. He's just no Terry Gordy." -Loss Earlier: "Did you guys notice that Dave called Morishima a better worker than Gordy in the latest Observer? I know he's expressed love for him previously but good lord." -Childs John

Some people seem to like the matches with Steamboat, but I haven't seen them in a while. Are they just all Steamboat? Not that that would be surprising. Shoe and I agree on a lot of 80's WWF, but we disagree on the Steamer-Muraco feud. Don showed up for flashes here and there in the feud, but they never were really enough to have even a single good match. He spent too much time being a lazy bastard in them. Don-Tito was horrid as well, and it's on Don. You could tell because the instant they put Tito with someone good (Valentine) or someone willing to work (Orndorff), Tito started having watchable-to-good-to-very-good matches. As far as Don in good matches, I like four of his matches with Backlund. I only wrote up one of the Muarco-Snuka's, and thought it was perfectly okay in whole (including the so-bad-they're-great interviews with Kal), though their chinlock stuff wasn't. There were two more Muraco-Snuka matches that got praise way back at the time, at least one of which a group of us watch years back and thought was pretty good for a feud match. Other than that... yeah... there's a lot of bad Don matches specifically because Don was bad in them. He might be #1 on the list of "Most Talented Bad Workers" because there really wasn't anything that Don couldn't do: he could bump, stooge, sell, get heat, had a good offense, could work holds both on top and the bottom, and could work good runs to the finish... off of them when he Felt Like It. Which for the most part wasn't the case. So most every Don match you'll see some stuff that is good, and a flash of someone who should be great. Then he'd lay around.

Looking at the thread, it looks like 13-10 "yes", counting MJH who has been around puroresu discussions online foever. Some of the 10 might have been in puroresu discussions for 6+ years elsewhere as well, but I'm not as familar with them. Was surpised 23 folks posted so far in the thread given it's lengthand Dylan & Jastrau dominated a good chunk of it early. Anyway, the comment about Morishima (which I think a lot of people would get) was that he was the last version of "This Is One Of The Greatest Heavyweights I've Seen Since The Last Greatest Heavyweight!" that a chunk of people were losing their shit for while another chunk of people were in their, "he's solid enough... but why are people losing their shit" camp. Tanahashi is latest, with guys like Kurt Angle being earlier versions. The comment wasn't to foreclose discussion. It was joke aimed at the Tanahashi/Morishima/Etc workers who pop up from time to time. John

"Eventually..." Which isn't really a plan with anything concrete. I'm still buying dvd's for a pair of lengthy viewing & write up projects, and still organizing and eyeballing more to get. But that's about as much as I'm doing on the watching front. My college football was 9 AM - 10:30 PM on Saturday, add in 6+ hours of Sunday NFL (and I was being lazy there), 3+ hours of Monday Night Football (was lazy there when I should have grabbed the Eagles game), and 3+ hours of NFL tonight. That's 13.5 hours of college football and 12+ hours of the NFL. That's not even getting into 6+ hours of international futbol games I watched... well... probably more than that since the stuff taped on last Friday didn't get watched until the weekend and Monday. I've probably watched 40+ hours of sports from Sat-Thur (including tonight), and that's not getting into stupid stuff like watching post-game analysis on ESPN, the NFL Network, etc. Not a lot of fast forward there either. Futbol season is August-May, with the World Cup coming up this summer. The NBA is Oct-June. College hoops is Nov-April. NFL and College Football are Sep-Jan. Then there's the non-sports TV that I like watching. A "for example": I have the entire season of Top Chef Masters on the dvr waiting for a weekend or multi-night binge viewing... and the new season of regular Top Chef is about to start. Something has to give there. I've just finished re-watching all of the original Prime Suspect series, re-watched the original House of Cards and have hit the first two episodes of To Play The King... season one of The Wire was a re-watch a month or so back... there's the whole second season of Copper on the DVR... Too much other shit, with watching wrestling probably ranking somewhere between #25 and #50 among "things I'd like to invest time in watching". Basically I'd need to dump a sport. Since I like talking the NFL with my girlfriend, and watching college football with Lacy is one of the most fun things I do all year, that's out. I love futbol. Would have to be the NBA and/or college hoops, which in the case of college hoops is largely just Duke... which is just 4 hours a week of viewing (i.e. a pot to piss in out of my viewing habits). Yep, it's a problem. Basically I need to hit the lotto and retire.

Thanks Childs...I will find it... All Japan Classics on G+ (Volume 83) 1. Mil Mascaras vs Norio Honaga (Kyoto, 10/22/1985) 2. Terry & Dory Funk Jr vs Terry Gordy & Art Crews (Kyoto, 10/22/1985) 3. Ric Flair & Rick Martel vs Genchiro Tenryu & Jumbo Tsuruta (Kyoto, 10/22/1985) 4. Jumbo Tsuruta vs Riki Choshu (Osaka, 11/04/1985) G+ Classics is a two hour show. It's likely the match was shown in full here. The shorter, edited version on youtube is from original TV. Can usually tell by looking for (i) logo / no logo, (ii) picture quality. This one doesn't have a logo in the corner, where as G+ and Sammy do. The picture quality also have a "taken from 80s vcr" quality to it.

The Japanese promotions work "series", with breaks in between them. This goes back to the 50s and JWA. They don't work every night of the year. I suspect that if we count up the dates worked by All Japan in 1990 it would be quite a bit less than JWA in say 1966, where they worked some longer series. I recall New Japan cutting back on their schedule in the early 90s, which they did by having several short "special" series like the G1 and the one in September. All Japan's schedule in 1990 looked like this in basic form: 01/02/90 - 02/01/90: New Year Giant Series 02/21/90 - 03/06/90: Excite Series 03/24/90 - 04/19/90: Champion Carnival 05/14/90 - 06/08/90: Super Power Series 07/07/90 - 07/27/90: Summer Action Series 08/18/90 - 09/07/90: Summer Action Series II 09/29/90 - 10/27/90: October Giant Series 11/15/90 - 12/07/90: Real World Tag Team League That's pretty much what they did the rest of the decade as well. The Excite and Super Power Series tended to be shorter series. The big shows for All Japan were at Budokan. In 1990 they were in the Excite Series (03/06/90), the Super Power Series (06/08/90), the Summer Action Series II (09/01/90) and the Tag League (12/07/90). Over the course of the decade, All Japan added Budokans to the October Giant Series (1992 with Misawa vs Kawada), the Summer Action Series I (1993 with Misawa vs Kawada) and the Carnival (1994 with the Carny Final). They never added a Budokan to the New Year series. The promotion also ran an occasional Fan Appreciation type shows at Korakuen Hall in between series, usually without Giajin. I believe the only one in 1990 was 06/30/90. Some years had more, such as 1992 having cards like that on 04/18/92, 04/19/92 & 09/17/92. 1990 was also an oddball as All Japan "hosted" a Tokyo Dome card with the WWF and New Japan 04/13/90. Part payback for All Japan sending talent to help New Japan's February Dome card, and also because Vince wanted to do it. Baba had so much fun doing this Dome card that he didn't do another one until 1998. Mostly to break up the year. A couple are different: Real World Tag Team League: This is the annual tag tourney, which started in 1977 (as the Open Tag League) and is still going on annually. Basically the climax to the year. Champion Carnival: From 1973-82 and again from 1991 on, this is the annual singles tourney. There was the singles Open League in Nov-Dec 1975 that the G+ Classics does a great job of capturing. That was a one off, and then the Tag League came along two years later. The rest of the series... they've taken on some general fan focus: Super Power Series: the June Budokan, which at times was the climax to the first half of the year. Some rather famous matches have headlined this. October Giant Series: anniversary card gets mixed in here. Since the Tag League eats up the last series with no singles Title defenses, you typically got the final singles title defense here once it got a Budokan. Other than Carny and the Tag League, no... one doesn't win the series. Again, it just breaks up the year. John

"Mr. Crowtarsky... zero... point... zero." John

That. One also wonders just how much of his "success" that folks would point to really has anything to do with Sasaki. The sellouts opposite Kawada? Let's be honest and admit that Sasaki has the same issue that Kawada does in giving tons of credit for that drawing: Kobashi would have dawn as well in that match, and Misawa would have had much higher ticket demand. Mutoh would have drawn as well as Sasaki in that match, likely more... and there really isn't any reason to think that Chono wouldn't have drawn as much as Sasaki. Setting aside how badly they screwed up Hash earlier in the year, it would have taken 6 months of rehab to build him back up... but that's New Japan's great sin of that era anyway. Normal Pre-Destroyed Hash vs Kawada would have had greater ticket demand than Sasaki-Kawada. Same goes for the January rematch, which wasn't even sold as a rematch given the tourney format. We could do that with just about every Sasaki high point. There's a slight different with Sting. I'm not sure that anyone else could have worked at that time for Hogan-Sting. Sasaki has lots of "accomplishments", but I don't really think they add up to two shits.

Yohe has posted results for LA in those years. They're likely buries somewhere on Classics.

He got tired of travel and wear of being WWWF Champ, which is why he handed the belt to Vince Sr. The results indicate what has always been said: he settled down to work Pitt and what was essentially a territory around it. Easy schedule as far as travel, Pitt as a strong anchor town where he was iconic, he got paid and could pick his spots to work. In a sense, he was working in a version of the Memphis territory though I don't think Pitt did weekly in their big building. I think if we had full details on what Bruno did between WWWF reigns (i.e. including what those buildings did without him to comp), it's unlikely there will be anything in there that hurts his and instead is likely to help him.

Here's the thing about that "Pedro bombed everywhere there weren't PR folk": He was champ for 2 years and 10 months. He had to carry an entire territory, not just the New York Metro. The PR population of Philly and Boston was statistically insignificant in 1972: less than 1% of the population. Newark had a decent sized PR population: it was all of 1.6% of its PSMA, which is insignificant. The rest of the territory was equally insignificant. How does Pedro keep the title for 2 years and 10 months just for drawing in a building that the WWWF drew loads of people before and after Pedro with the likes of Bruno, Superstar, Bob and Hogan? The WWWF wasn't Memphis where one might be able to justify the Mid South Colosseum was all that mattered (though I suspect in the 70s and early 80s that Jarrett and Lawler would dispute that and the rest of the territory was useful for putting money in their pockets). I tend to think that that "Pedro only draw PR's" is another WWWF/WWF meme like: * Bruno sold out every MSG that he ever main evented * Backlund never worked in Boston * Backlund lost all his heat after Snuka * wait... Backlund lost all his heat after crying over Superstar destroying the belt * Superstar got no help in drawing, while Backlund needed all sorts of help on the card Etc. It's possible that Pedro kept drawing his entire MGS run but cooled off in the other cities down the stretch, say at some point in 1973. But I think there's no way in hell that he was bombing everywhere else in 1971 and 1972, with Vince Sr and his partners and local promoters not giving a shit about it until December 1973. That just doesn't happen in pro wrestling unless that wrestler is also the Promoter/Owner (i.e. The Shiek).

Funny irony. For legal reasons, I'm on the company's distribution list for all terminations, be they employees, contractors, temps, etc. Which means whenever someone gets terminated, I get an e-mail popping up in my inbox. Just got one for: Enrique Torres John

Start with the premise that Tenryu left, took wrestlers, and as you'll see below took more. This left open the spot of the #2 native in the promotion opposite the #1 (Jumbo). When Misawa took off the mask and went opposite of Jumbo, you'll find that Taue was the #3 guy on his side behind Kawada. He's in the Elbow match: Misawa & Taue & Kobash vs Jumbo & Kabuki & Fuchi Taue teams with Misawa's group those entire first two series after Tenryu leaves and Misawa moves up to be Jumbo's native rival. It's Kobashi's role that's a little slow in developing into Misawa's group. He even teams with Jumbo in that first series, though by the Budokan he's a little more clearly Misawa-associated. Jumbo's original side had Kabuki, Fuyuki and Fuchi. Fuyuki jumped after that first series to go join Tenryu. Jumbo's old partner Yatsu briefly joined the team, long enough to go over Misawa & Kawada and Misawa & Taue on back-to-back nights to open the second series, and get booked into challenging Gordy & Doc for the World Tag Titles... before he went AWOL... and eventually joined Tenryu. Mighty Inoue joined Jumbo's group and his role is preserved a bit on TV. The second series sees Kikuchi join Misawa's group, setting up a junior rivalry with Fuchi. The second series also see Kabuki getting the slot of Jumbo's top partner when Yatsu goes AWOL, with Baba believing he had an agreement with Kabuki to stay, so Jumbo & Kabuki win the World Tag Titles, having lifted them from Gordy & Doc. Kabuki promptly double crosses Baba by jumping to Tenryu's promotion. At that point, there weren't any older heavyweight natives to move over into Jumbo's group to take the slot that Yatsu and/or Kabuki could have held. The more senior "younger" heavies that Baba might have been tempted to join Jumbo's group had already jumped: Shunji Takano and Shinichi Nakano. Neither were exactly Baba's favorites by that point in their careers, but they both had tagged with Jumbo a decent amount over the years as junior-junior partners, and Takano especially earlier that year popped up with Jumbo a pretty fair number of times. Just a guess that if Takano stayed, he would have gotten the spot due to seniority, being ahead of Taue and Kobashi on the pecking order, and being a good of a "fit" for Jumbo was Taue was at the time. But they went to SWS. That left: 1. Jumbo 2. Misawa 3. Kawada 4. Taue 5. Kobashi And: 1 vs 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 Someone was going to move, unless Baba went gaijin to pair with Jumbo (like Tenryu & Hansen) or brought someone in. Gaijin wasn't going to happen: Hansen & Spivey vs Gordy & Doc worked for Baba, and had the nice 1 & 4 vs 2 & 3 balance he liked. In turn, there was no one to bring in. Taue. 1 & 4 vs 2 & 3 on the native side. Rather than Young vs Old, it gave Jumbo a protege. Kawada was too senior to Taue, imbalancing the groups. Kobashi was below Taue, which would have left Taue #3 on Misawa's side and imbalance on Jumbo's. There was no angle. Taue didn't turn on Misawa or Kawada to end the prior series, which would be impossible because they didn't know Kabuki was leaving. Taue didn't hit Misawa over the head with a chair in the dojo between series. Jumbo didn't go to Taue's home and beg him to join hands. He simply became Jumbo's partner and started teaming with him on opening night of the next series. Misawa & Kawada & Kobashi & Kikuchi vs Jumbo & Taue & Fuchi & Inoue Almost there. Ogawa missed all this fun because he'd been out with an elbow injury since January. He returned in the Giant Series in October, largely going the singles prelim route, but he did get into the feud in a six-man tag... with Misawa & Kawada opposite Jumbo & Fuchi & Inoue. In the Tag League series, quite a few singles matches against Kikuchi while tagging regularly with Fuchi. They're getting there. Except in the opening series of 1991, he's kind of wafting around, including teaming with Kikuchi a few times! By the second series of 1991, Ogawa is a member of Jumbo's group giving Kikuchi a peer rival in addition to the senior rival of Fuchi. We get the classic eight of the feud: Jumbo & Taue & Fuchi & Ogawa vs Misawa & Kawada & Kobashi & Kikuchi Mighty tags occassional with Jumbo's group here and there, but is phased down. Anyway, it basically evolved from April 1990 to February 1991, most of it caused by people leaving and reacting to it rather than any grand plan.

11/04/1985: Jumbo Tsuruta vs Riki Choshu (60:00)

Yep. That kind of ties into my comment that he was probably better than most in not blowing through is money, which allowed him to: * not-work most of June 1987 through March 1991 * supplement what he'd saved and/or made off the gym with short term things like -- late 1987 / early 1988 WWF work -- Feb-Jul 1989 run in WCW I get the feeling that when he game back to the WWF in 1991 that while perhaps not hard up for cash that... he could use the cash. He likely got a decent deal coming back into WCW in late 1991 (as did Rude). He somehow survived the Watts Cost Cutting Era, though one gets the feeling that Ricky wouldn't be a stubborn as Rude was when it came to staying on his good sized contract... so maybe he was willing to take a cut. Never heard of him being under the pressure like some other guys such as Pillman. Anyway, he kept working through the injury before Eric terminated him. He always had a good push in those years, so no need to walk away and he seemed to be respected by a string of bookers. But given his lack of drive and/or need to work regularly in the prior four years, one wonders if something changed with his earlier investments... who knows.

Weren't there threads like this six years ago on Takeshi Morishima?

I remember seeing some of those shows on local cable. I doubt Ricky was making much coin.

They also still ran Bruno in tag matches (with Tanaka often in them, as was Gorilla). Graham doesn't have all the data, but I seem to recall from the MSG book that there was a period of shitty business in there, that then popped back up around the time the new Garden opened. The old saw that Bruno sold MSG out for 7 straight years was bullshit, and the second run was the one that seemed to have the more consistent business. Obviously Pedro and Backlund also draw conistently in MSG in the 70s, and the Superstar reign did as well though there's some irony looking at that as Superstar got a fair amount of help that he (and others) tends to shift over onto Bob getting help.