jdw

The riff is that the WWF in the 80s wasn't Kane or Gone With The Wind. It was something very successful, that at it's best was good, had a major charismatic star and good-to-great supporting cast, that was more than a bit goofy and shouldn't (nor isn't) taken as a high end example of the Art Form, but was laid out in a well enough fashion to deliver for its fans. I liked Smokey at the time, though of course I was only 11 so it's not like I had watched much Ozu or Bergman or Kurosawa. But I was flipping channels this weekend during a commercial break in a football game, came across it... and for the couple of scenes I watched (one was Gleason busting the whorehouse where the local Sherrif happened to be partaking of the services), it still is perfectly entertaining within its type of movie. Plus I'm a Sally Fields mark, and she was so cute and hot in it... John

This is true. She looked far more awesome in the poster for the second, weaker movie: It's worse than that. Smokey came out in 1977 when Burt was #4 behind Sly, Streistand and Clint. His run was 1978-82: 1978: The End, Hooper 1979: Starting Over 1980: Rough Cut, Smokey and the Bandit II 1981: The Cannonball Run, Paternity, Sharky's Machine 1982: The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas, Best Friends 1978 may include Semi-Tough, which was release in November 1977. It's a funny list. It's odd to think of Burt at his "peak" being in a movie directed by Norman Jewison and written by Barry Levinson. John

It's strange because Leban had a lot of MMA training going well back before TUF, and was rounded beyond just a puncher. Not say GSP level of rounded, but he used non-wrestler subs early his career (i.e. things other than the dreaded Wrestler Neck Crank), and certainly with Team Quest worked with wrestlers. Of course Josh was a really, really, really good wrestler. Which I think makes the point even better: Leban wasn't just a boxer, but an actually experienced MMA Fighter. He wasn't a world class punched like a boxer of that weight class would be, but he was trained in defending against take downs, and catching wrestlers coming in (guillotine or timing a knee). So while he might not hit as hard and skillful as a world class boxer of that size, his all around MMA game was light years ahead. Yet Josh was so good that he had his way with him. I think we see this in other Arts as well. A number of really good Jiu-Jitsu guys have entered the cage, been limited in their all around game, and gotten their heads handed to them because there's more to MMA than just that. Or Machida being a good Karate guy, but if he wasn't as strong at take down defense, he never would have become a high ranked MMA fighter or world champ.

I would worry less about pacing then about people thinking that everything needs to look tighter, stiffer and more "real" on TV and... injuries, concussions, etc. I'm a bit surprised that the WWE would even put that out as enough of it, especially on a higher level, creates an expectation of that for the fans. We may think that's unlikely, but think back to the Chairshots era. Back in the 80s, pretty much everyone got their hands up to protect themselves. Any of us who were hardcore fans, even if we became ones without being WON readers but simply enjoyed the fake performance of wrestling, got that the guys put their hands/arms up to keep from getting clocked in the head. It was an expectation that made the outliers such as this stay in our minds: Even with a worked movie-style chair that we all saw as such, it still was "remembered" in the era. In the mid-90s with FMW and ECW, lots of wrestlers stopped protecting themselves. "Realism", etc. We don't need revolution/evolution like that.

Unlikely you're the only person who liked it. To avoid spamming, by my comments from several years ago were tossed in the Race thread.

I think you have the wrong movie analogies. It should be: John

World class freestyle wrestling vs world class boxing in the same weight class in an MMA fight (which is what we're doing in mixing the arts of freestyle wrestling and boxing) = wrestler destroys boxer. Have 10 different matches like that, and the wrestler wins 90%+ Have 100, and the wrestler wins 95%+ The only way things even out is if the "boxer" has a wrestling background, or starts training in wrestling and is athletically gifted (i.e. like GSP becoming a quality wrestler in a MMA sense). But at the same time, you'd have the wrestler working on his striking. Boxing is a pretty shitty base for MMA.

I don't think you're an all-time great boxer if you don't fight other HOF level fighters at or very near their peak. I was willing to cut Money slack that it's just the nature of the game, as other fighters have come along at times when there really aren't other great fighters in their class. But while avoiding saying he ducked people, in a round about way you're saying he ducked people: "He only fights guys he knows he can beat." "there is a caution in him that keeps him from saying I need to fight the absolute best guy out there, right now." Sorry, that's ducking.

I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. If we go by your premise, he's a fucking joke and it does take away from his greatness. :/

Orange. Kobashi started driving me nuts while he was still wearing orange, and I loath his work after he switched trunks. John

I would say there's a problem with the math when Liger is that high. I don't think he was the draw in a single match on a single dome. The closest was simply being the last opponent Choshu faced in his retirement. Tenzan is questionable to me, as his true Dome main events would have come in the period when New Japan tanked. I confess that I don't get how that number for Taue could be arrived at.

Budokan and Sumo Hall aren't Dome shows. On the Domes you listed: Not a main event. Not a main event. This was almost entirely Mutoh challenging Hash for the title, with a special attraction of the Inoki Tag. This was sold on Hash getting his revenge against Ogawa. The tag title match wasn't anything huge when booked, with the finish being the more surprising element (which had nothing to do with Sasaki). This was really a strange one. Choshu wouldn't work an IWGP title match with Sasaki on the card, and moved it down below not only the tag title match but also the Hash martial arts match, which was a strange admission that no one was buying Sasaki above the Three Musketeers even when he was doing Mentor vs Pupil. It was a flat finish to the Five Dome cards that year. I keep coming back to that word: strange. Choshu retirement matches on the card, which was pushed much harder. Sasaki-Mutoh went on last, but Choshu was the draw. Inoki retirement was the draw. Fujinami over Sasaki was a typically nice bone that Choshu threw Fujinami, and a nice cap on how medicore and unmemorable Sasaki's first title reign was. That tag match wasn't even the #2 pushed match on the card. The opener was. There was one main event: Hash-Ogawa. Mutoh-Nakanishi was an after thought, and Tenryu-Sasaki wasn't even that. The Hash-Ogawa tag actually was the most pushed match of the card. The "main event" was the IWGP Tourney, with it far from a lock that it would be Kawada-Sasaki. Kawada and Chono were the ones with byes into the semis, with it looking set up for them to only have to work twice rather than Sasaki work three times. The co-main was: IWGP Title Tourney featuring Kawada; Choshu-Hash. For a minute I was trying to remember why I'm forgetting that show, then I remembered it totally bombed. Inoki-ism at its worst. The main event had the Triple Crown and GHC champs in it, in a New Japan ring, with the prodigal Hase returning. The IWGP Champ was in a non-title match in the semi, with more Inoki-ism that New Japan Fans weren't buying. The main event was the main event. The main event was the main event. The bloom was so far off the rose on Ogawa that after years of refusing to job, he rolled over for Sasaki. It was meaningless. The top two matches were the main events: the IWGP Title match and the Sapp tag match. The Nagata-Sasaki was so meaningless and forgettable that Sasaki got the belt two months later despite the job. Another bomb that I'm forgetting. I have to say that we have another one of those strange things: they get the belt off Fujita the month before onto Sasaki and toss them in less interesting matches... rather than using Fujita vs Sasaki main event this card. And for the second time that year, Sasaki is doing nothing more than be a very short term transitional champ. That one is reasonably a co-main event at the very least between it and Misawa-Kawada. I do agree with the other posts that it was treated as the biggest match folks were interested in. Tenryu-Ogawa doesn't deserve to be listed... I wonder if people rate every match Tenryu had on Domes a little high. Anyway, his list of "Dome main events" is a good deal shorter that the original list.

The strange thing about Money is that while he has a lot of potential HOF guys on his list of wins, just how many of them did he fight when they were at their peak... of close to their peak? I don't think he's quite Hector Camacho'd it of avoiding all sorts of folks. But it's... strange that the stars don't line up for him.

I haven't voted for Sasaki in the past, won't vote for him this year, and have difficulty seeing ever voting for him. I can't say that his going in would annoy me more than Hase going in, or at some point Sakaguchi going in. There's a part of me that's resigned to Sasaki having those career achievement check boxes that over time wash away what he was at the time, so it's hard to get fired up by folks pimping him.

Sasaki was also fresh at that point, whereas Kawada vs Misawa was an old match. :/

Beats me. Prowrestlinghistory.com would have it. In the end, it's just a number. We can say he "main evented" twice against Kawada and it drew a ton. But that number 2 and the average crowd they drew really tell us nothing on how much we can credit Kawada or Sasaki for that. John

His singles puch actually started back in 1994: final in the G1 losing to Mr. August, then headlining the Dome in January challenging Hash for the IWGP Title. Since Hash was ripe to lose the title at this point (having originally won it back in 9/93), there was some fear that this would be Sasaki's turn: Hash had the IWGP, Mutoh had held it before (and the NWA Title), and Chono had held the NWA Title (as well as winning 3 of the 4 G1 tourneys). There was some fear that it was Sasaki's turn to join them. Luckily for us, Hash beat him because the title was heading to Mutoh in May. Anyway, Sasaki's singles push started when he began moving away from Hawk. They were going Hash --> Mutoh (5/95) --> Chono (1/96), with Mutoh also winning the G1. The first two happened, but after the G1 there was that little issue of Takada and UWFi, which changed things. Not sure if Sasaki was going to of winning the title earlier than 1997 and the that was another thing changed by Takada, or if they wanted to make him wait. Mostly Chono got screwed by Takada coming in, but I digress.

Ouch!

Shibuya had a good write up when he died, which highlighted his role in good promotional periods for both the NoCal promotion and the SoCal one. He does come across as a viable candidate after it, which really wasn't even Dave's intent when writing it up. Synder is probably the best example out there of someone who needs a detailed record book (along with clippings) to get a better view of his career. It would help if a Destroyer-amount of his work were available to get a gauge on whether he could also go. I'm always open to him, but need more.

"Great shit." -jdw

The stuff I wrote on the Jumbo and Misawa groups the other day was based on: * memory * cross checking with the results and coverage in the JWJ and the WON I don't really need to watch anything to remember Taue being in Misawa's group initially, Kabuki being in Jumbo's, Yatsu coming in and then jumping, Kabuki double crossing Baba, Kikuchi evolving into the group, Taue moving to the other side, and Ogawa popping up in Jumbo's group the following year. Oh... and Mighty being in the mix. The specifics of when Ogawa was out, and the injury? That I tend to need to double checking to make sure of the series. As far as me discussing something based on a recent re-watch of a match, I don't think anyone really wants me to do that. My second post in this thread is talking about just the run-in of a match: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=14628 Pretty detailed. Crickets in response. Most of my talking about matches tends to be along the lines of my second May 22, 2012 post in that thread. There's nothing in that comment that needs re-watching of the match prior to make it. I don't talk a ton about match quality or do detailed work-analysis in those threads. It's far more about the booking and the history.

I have the NFL network, which has those replays. I generally don't watch NFL games if I don't watch them the same day, and usually live. I match watch something like the game last night on delay-o because it started when I was at work. But FF through the commercials and halftime (since last night's first half didn't really need any halftime analysis), and I got done with it in well under 3 hours. But on Sunday, about the only one I'll watch on delay in the SNF if I need to run out after the 10am and 1pm PT games are over. College football is similar: the majority of may watching is live. The only things I'll watch on delay are USC if I'm doing something else and Auburn if I'm trying to hook up a watching with Lacy. The rest... I tend to watch it live. Futbol... a lot of that is on dvr because of (i) the time differences, the CL being during the weekdays, and (iii) some weekend games overlapping with other games or other stuff.