Childs

I wouldn't necessarily read anything into that. Grantland has only been dead five days. I think ESPN will make a strong push to keep Lowe, and honestly, it's probably still the best platform for him. I've heard Keri, by contrast, is actively seeking a new gig.

John, would you instinctively place Takada in the top tier of Japanese workers from his era? To your mind, what were his greatest strengths? Just curious because I haven't seen you write a lot about him in recent years.

Don't really think there is one to be honest. Outside of The Dissolve I don't think there's been a website devoted to any aspect of pop culture that I've read that I found to be worth checking out on a regular basis. With this quote, you seem to suggest nothing is good enough for you. That's such an extreme stance that it renders your criticism of Grantland meaningless.

Among Phillips' big flight-of-fancy features, I think I preferred the Iditarod one to the sumo. As for Zach, I'm guessing he's one of the guys ESPN will continue using on its existing platforms? I don't see why they wouldn't as long as he's under contract.

I'm more positive on the site than you overall, but I agree about the eulogies whitewashing the flawed and unremarkable aspects of it. As you say, that's what eulogies are wont to do.

I'm sorry but that just sounds ridiculous, as if everything is beneath you. If you can't find any muffins that suit you, maybe it's not the stand that needs to be put out to pasture.

Does it ever bother you guys that the trios structure can feel so pre-ordained that the struggle over the primera and segunda feels minimized or even non-existent? I found that was something I accepted over time but that hung me up in my early attempts to grasp the rhythm of lucha. I felt like no one was trying to win the match until the tercera. Of course, we could criticize many (even most?) wrestlers in many styles for paying scant attention to the early parts of matches.

I'm not a huge Homicide fan, but I do think the ROH crowd bought him as a top guy with a badass aura. Think about the reaction to him as the company savior in the CZW feud. You can't fake that.

I agree with all that. I just get the sense that for ESPN, the project was principally about appeasing Simmons. That's a volatile base on which to build. And it became obvious, once he departed, that their hearts just weren't in it. So when I say unsustainable, I'm not really talking about economics. Even with looming concerns about rights fees, ESPN has more money than God. They can "sustain" whatever the hell they want to sustain.

Agreed. It was probably never a long-term sustainable enterprise, but I always appreciated that Simmons used his juice to create something legitimately interesting.

Yeah, it's been a total shit show since ESPN broke up with Simmons.

That 12/6/14 tag was excellent with Akiyama in particular kicking major ass. I love the way he's aged into a lumpier, more violent gatekeeper. The small-time atmosphere did hurt it a little though. They worked an epic style and the crowd wasn't there to meet them. Not the fault of the workers, just a little sad.

This is Dick Murdoch redux in terms of the quality of the argument. But Dave probably hasn't watched Memphis TV from the '80s since the '80s. So honestly, who gives a shit what he thinks about Dundee's work? We know better. He's broadly correct about how important Lawler was, however. Is our love of Dundee a more modern view? Was he not well-regarded in the 80's. When I watch 80's Memphis he's an easy Top 50 all-time pick, I just assumed Dave would be with me. My impression is that few people outside the Memphis viewing area would have considered Dundee a top worker in the '80s. I don't know what those reading the Observer thought at the time. But Dundee wasn't played up in the mags and wasn't someone who meant anything to me as a fan of NWA/WWF/UWF. The Lawler matches were always pimped of course, but the DVDVR set did his reputation a lot of good. He finished 136 in the Smarkschoice poll; I'll be surprised if he doesn't crack the top 100 in GWE.

This is Dick Murdoch redux in terms of the quality of the argument. But Dave probably hasn't watched Memphis TV from the '80s since the '80s. So honestly, who gives a shit what he thinks about Dundee's work? We know better. He's broadly correct about how important Lawler was, however.

I agree with that though I never found him as compelling as a heel. He might have been the best U.S. worker of 1991.

Kris is so fair-minded that he actually used a personal pick on a Brody match.

Again, no one is creating the talking point in 2015. It was there from the moment the Mid-South results dropped.

That's a semantic debate though. Loss argued that she made a bold choice about her style around 1991-92 and became a more distinctive/important wrestler for it. The discussion has proceeded from that base. I don't think anyone is arguing she completely reinvented wrestling.

Actually, I think that's where it started. People bitched about how boring the Flair-Terry Taylor matches were in the threads, but then they all finished top 30 in the voting.

I'm not staking a position on this issue because I haven't thought about it with any care, but there was a feeling among the DVDVR committees that Flair matches skewed high in the final rankings because of Flair's fame/familiarity. Do with that what you will, but it's not a new talking point.

The Styles match you're referring to as a classic, is that the ROH one from '05 or the recent one?

I ended up looking at it as two different questions as well. I'll vote Fujiwara highest in GWE because his pro-style work was terrific. He was, at worst, the third best guy in '80s New Japan, with classic performances against Choshu, Inoki and in several multi-man matches. He had his pro-style moments in the '90s as well. Given that his best shootstyle performances were on the same level as those of Han and Tamura, the extra shadings in his resume put him over the top. But the question of best shootstylist is more difficult. Fujiwara was a founding father and maybe the founding father in terms of developing the best elements of the style. Han really pushed the form forward with his stylistic flair. Tamura synthesized some of the best elements of the other masters, pushed them to turbo with his unmatched motor and produced the highest sustained peak. Fujiwara was the best seller/defender. Han produced the most exquisite moments. Tamura was the most impressive athlete. Right now, I'd rank them Tamura, Fujiwara, Han. But my order might be different if you asked me in a month.

I've been thinking more about Loss' question of whether we should reward Toyota for her boldness in forging a style that distinguished her. It really is a fascinating question in any realm of artistic judgment. My wife and I have watched Project Runway and Top Chef at various points, and on those shows, you'll often see the judges reward sheer creative audacity instead of the chef whose food tastes the best or the designer whose clothes a non-model might actually want to wear. I believe it's important to reward creative audacity. It's part of how we move forward as a species. But when I pull that question back to one of personal choice, I would still struggle to call something the greatest if the food doesn't taste good.

OJ (and anyone else), if you were doing a mini-ranking of Fujiwara, Tamura and Han, how would you have them?

I hear you. Do you feel like the Suzuki invasion has worked? Based on the handful of shows I've seen and stuff I've heard from modern puro mavens like Alan, my impression is that it's been kind of meh. But it's not like I want that to be the case. I hoped this would be a great run that would add to Suzuki's stature.