Childs

Can't speak to the validation issues but honestly, I haven't seen a lot of the other things you're talking about. Sure, when you're debating rankings with a group of intensely passionate nerds (said affectionately) you're going to see some testy exchanges, especially among people who've known each other for years. But I don't see shaming of newcomers for lack of knowledge or unpopular opinions. When a new poster introduces him/herself, an encouraging greeting often follows. I just don't buy that this is an overly harsh or discouraging environment.

Also, I need to get away from this thread because I'm sort of mesmerized by that gif of Sasha.

See, I think Raw/Smackdown's failures do in fact add to NXT's specialness for a lot of people (though it's cool you like it so much on its own terms).

Again though, wasn't the real fan service that they paid off their weekly storylines with good, dramatic blowoffs on the Takeover specials? WWE so often fucks up that basic set-up/payoff formula with the main roster. Against that backdrop, fans find NXT refreshing. Again, I'm not opposed to little "graduation" moments like the one you're praising. But if we were to wishcast traits from NXT onto the company as a whole, I'd point to NXT's basic ability to build and pay off feuds.

Amen. People get way too self-conscious about what they have and haven't seen.

I'm not sure that's what makes it special. My impression--and I'm not a weekly watcher so not the best qualified person to assess this--is that a lot of people like it because it's a straightforward wrestling show. I don't see the curtain call as a big deal one way or another. But what's special is that NXT bothered to build female stars and booked them into logical feuds with well-executed payoffs. Throw in too much Steph and Trips and that back-to-basics efficiency feels a little imperiled.

I watched BOLA this week and also Sabre's PWG match with Strong from earlier in the year. The Strong match was terrific, but I got the sense Roddy was the one who brought the structure to it, with Sabre providing lots of spirit and bursts of cool offense. His BOLA stuff was more hit and miss. In his long match against Marty Scurll, I had no idea what they were going for, and that's a feeling I often get from Sabre's matches. It's interesting, the PWG commentators consistently push him as the best technician in the world, and I don't see that. He seems neither crisp (always difficult when you're a tall, lanky guy) nor fluid to me, if that makes any sense. He still comes off coltish--a guy with a big bag of tools who's throwing shit against the wall as he casts about for an identity. That's not necessarily bad; I just don't see this polished package they're touting. I don't want to be too negative. As I said, I liked the Strong match a lot and have also dug several of his Evolve matches this year. There's an excellent wrestler in there, and I'm rooting for him. He just needs to keep streamlining.

What's particularly odd is that they're hyper self-aware but seem utterly unaware of the impact of their self-awareness on viewers.

That's a great call.

True and it certainly won't come off as anything dramatic if you're looking for the equivalent of Orndorff piledriving Hogan or something. I just wanted him to know there is a moment.

Apologies for this stray thought, but Manami Toyota (whom I often dislike as a worker) displayed the most amazing cardio of any wrestler I've seen. I'd put Flair in the upper ranks with Kobashi, Danielson and some others.

No there was a turn. He abandoned Wajima in a tag match against Tiger Jeet Singh and Texas Red. It's on the DVDVR set as an extra.

Does appearing in a random one-off main event on a lesser B show make him a main-event player in WWE?

I would only rate Windham clearly higher, though Blackwell's best performances were just as good as Gordy's. If we had more peak Blackwell on tape, my guess is I'd have him above Terry. Harley I probably have on about the same level. Both he and Gordy have often left me underwhelmed despite their obvious gifts. Adonis, Taylor and Sting have no chance of making my 100. I'm not sure how to rate Gordy's Japan work. He plugged right in with the top guys in All-Japan and looked like he belonged. But he rarely delivered performances that struck me as remarkable, even in matches that were great overall. I mean, he was in that 12/16/88 tag, but he wasn't the one who made it memorable. Same with the Funk retirement tag. I guess he was still better than Doc in the early MVC days, but I wouldn't call their matches the cream of the crop for that promotion. On the singles front, he had very good matches with Misawa and Kobashi but again, not the best of the best. It's hard to knock a guy for a solid 10-year run as a hoss in one of the world's best in-ring promotions. I just wish he blew my hair back a few times.

Do you feel like the Mars Blackmon spots were specifically targeted at black youth? I had a Mars Blackmon t-shirt, and I don't think that made me unusual among the upper-middle-class white and Asian kids who predominated at my school. I feel like if anything, marketers learned from Jordan and a number of other sources that kids of all demographics would eat up what had traditionally been regarded as black culture. I agree that WWF missed the boat on this revelation because of its incredibly backward presentation of black characters. Anyway, not arguing with you at this point. But it's kind of an interesting discussion. Speaking to Virgil specifically, I think they could have done more with him. But my gut feeling is he never had the talent to be a Jordanesque figure. Jordan's impact would not have endured and transcended if he hadn't been legitimately special.

The overarching point with Takayama is that the old wisdom suggested he sucked ass until 2001. He didn't. So that gives him a solid base to go with his terrific peak and should help him in the voting.

I guess John wasn't persuaded by Parv's podcasts.

I think it's super-weird to cast Michael Jordan's impact that way. He was the best, most visually captivating player a lot of us had ever seen, and he became the rare athlete who transcended race/class/nationality, etc. If your point is that WWE should have done more to diversify its audience and that 1991 Virgil would have been a candidate for that effort, that's fine. But the tie to Jordan seemed like a poorly explained reach. Anyhow, I'm sure you meant no harm by it.

Yes, not even a contest. Choshu is a top 30 guy for me and as I said, Yatsu is on the bubble to make my list. Again, Yatsu can't touch Choshu's resume of great singles matches. And even if you boil it down to just tag matches, Choshu (post-1982) was always a clear A side on his teams and Yatsu a clear B. Sure, Yatsu was often the workhorse. I won't dispute that he sometimes outperformed Choshu when they teamed up. But Choshu was the guy who brought the heat to those matches and the guy who created most of the big moments. He was a worker who swung the momentum and working styles of whole promotions at his peak. Yatsu just didn't bring that kind of juice.

I don't see it as much of a comparison at all. Yatsu can't touch Taue's resume of high-end singles matches. Yatsu might have had more talent, but the production wasn't there.

What the hell did Virgil have to do with Michael Jordan? Nothing. And I explained why I would have marketed him that way in the post you quoted. You did? You drew a bizarre link between a wrestler and the transcendent sports star of a generation based on "black sports audiences."

What the hell did Virgil have to do with Michael Jordan?

That's insane. Yes, Yatsu and Takada produced the most spectacular segment of that gauntlet, but the whole thing is best watched as a single narrative, not as a series of individual matches. In that light, Hamaguchi and Fujiwara played their parts well. The whole thing is on a short list of my very favorite things in wrestling history. As for Yatsu, he's hurt in this competition by his lack of memorable singles matches. Though I liked his partner vs. partner match against Jumbo and found that his match against Brody during Brody's last run surpassed my expectations. He'd make a list of 150 for me, not sure about 100.

The date is wrong--12/6/89 was a tag match with Jumbo and Tenryu on opposing sides. But yes, that looks like the 6/5/89 match which is generally regarded as their masterpiece.

No.