Childs

I think Parv's argument would be that Flair created his own context because he was so good. So it would be like Jim Rice killing it in a lesser hitting park and thus earning the right to take advantage of Fenway.

I see Kawada as kind of a poignant heel.

I also listened to part 4 and found it a provocative addition to the overall GWE debate. A few points ... I feel you guys overstate the degree to which Flair has been picked over more than the other top candidates. I agree he's been scrutinized for longer because he's been the GOAT standard for at least 20 years. But over the same time, we've seen an enormous amount of debate and discussion over All Japan. We've had the '80s projects and the '90s yearbooks, which have put spotlights on Jumbo, Lawler, Hansen, Fujinami, Bock, Tenryu and others. We've seen plenty of Funk discussion, spurred by Dylan, Will, Parv and others. OJ has done a terrific job laying a base of criticism for the top lucha and British candidates. MattD has emerged as an interesting voice of skepticism on Hansen. I could point you to lines of criticism and doubting voices on all of the No. 1 contenders. And frankly, for all the Flair discussion, I haven't seen much of the granular, week-to-week criticism Charles says is lacking for other candidates. With Flair as with everyone else, we're more likely to talk about the greatest hits and a few choice album cuts. Personally, I've watched every '80s set and every yearbook, participated in Ditch's 2000s Japan project, watched the All Japan and New Japan classics covering the '70s and watched literally every piece of footage available from All Japan, New Japan and Portland in the '80s. I'm working my way through a big stack of British footage and also trying to keep a vague eye on current wrestling. That still leaves gaps. There will always be gaps. And I don't list all that footage to suggest I'm special. I think it's fairly typical of the efforts put in by a lot of posters on this board (including Parv and Charles). So while we're further along in discussions of Flair than with most other candidates, I don't see the lack of critical thinking alluded to in the podcast. Charles said near the end that a would-be voter should figure out a standard and then hold every wrestler to it. That struck me as a good description of Parv's approach. He has decided that his No. 1 needed to work effectively against a wide variety of opponents and needed to work as "The Man." He's also judging largely, maybe even exclusively, on a wrestler's peak. Not coincidentally, that's a rubric that lines up very well with the strengths of Ric Flair. That's a fine way to go at this thing. But it's not how I look at it. I don't have a clear set of criteria for my top-of-ballot candidates. Everyone is not trying to leap over the same bar. I would describe my approach more as trying to understand exactly what each wrestler was and what he/she was trying to be. What were his/her strengths and weaknesses? How high were his/her peaks and how meaty was his/her entire career? I appreciate Flair for the durability of his style, his intense work ethic and the fact he mastered the most sought-after job in the business. But I appreciate Kawada just as much for his portrayal of the man who wasn't quite meant to be king and for the physical heights to which he and his compatriots pushed the craft. I appreciate Hansen playing the Terminator come to life and yet subtly building up his opponents as they feuded. I appreciate Lawler as the ultimate defender of his own turf and Fujiwara as the master of defense and ring positioning. I also recognize flaws in all those guys. Flair and Kawada weren't particularly interesting as older wrestlers. Hansen guzzled too many opponents and didn't produce a string of classics against Jumbo (though I still find it irritating when people say they never had a great match--10/21/86 was great, damnit!). Lawler worked tired schtick as a heel. Fujiwara didn't main event a lot in major promotions and worked an offensive style that doesn't click with everyone. My job is to make sure I understand each wrestler as best I can and then make personal choices as to which career I value more. I'm not sure Charles or Parv would agree with me, but I do think this is a more personal process than the HOF. We all define greatness a little differently and the contest is as much between those definitions as it is between wrestlers. I don't want to suggest I'm a complete relativist. It is important, for example, that Flair earned the top job in the business and did it well enough that his name is inseparable from our concept of that job. Parv and Charles are correct to say that's a major accomplishment and not some bit of luck. But the decision of how to weight that accomplishment against an aesthetic preference for Kawada is ultimately a personal one. I don't see any way around that.

this sounds so weird coming from you. Read that last sentence. Well, I'm not a Raven "fan." I cover the team.

Have to agree about Dynamite. He got over quickly wherever he went in part because his shit looked so good.

Rod Stewart was definitely better than Flair in the early '70s.

Just watched the 5/21/94 tag and they definitely went with the same dynamic of Kawada failing to hit the third powerbomb. Btw, those 40 minutes flew by. Parv, I know you loved that match. Does that not count as going long in your mind?

Well, Elvis Costello talks about him on the first page of his autobiography.

Maybe I'm wrong but I always thought the powerbomb formula was pretty clear.

Actually, they did a good job of establishing that if Kawada could hit a third powerbomb in a big match, he'd usually win. So it wasn't really arbitrary.

I know Raven has a rep as a sharp wrestling mind but given a choice between watching his brand of work and Benoit's, I'll take Benoit's every time. In fact, Benoit dragged Raven to one of his best matches if I recall correctly. That's not a shot at you for bringing it up Chief. I'm just not a Raven fan.

Sometimes, sure, but there were also times going through the yearbooks when I thought he looked like the best wrestler in the world. And the Regal and Finlay matches don't fit that criticism at all.

I hate the back-slappy thing Jumbo did but not enough to discount all the other devastation he unleashed. Grumpy Jumbo decapitating Kikuchi remains one of my favorite things in wrestling

He had a good match against Dan Spivey too. But the reality is that in his peak years, he wasn't working as many singles matches against random stiffs as Flair was at his peak. You can't investigate something that isn't there. When he had chances, he handled them well. He also hardly ever worked an hour. He never worked a singles broadway with Misawa. And you haven't watched the 10/15/95 tag or the 10/18/96 singles with Kobashi. So that seems like a bizarre thing to hold against him. It also seems bizarre to claim Jumbo and Flair were beyond reproach when they went an hour. Watch the Jumbo-Choshu broadway; it's pretty damn boring. If you watch week-to-week TV from the early '90s, Kawada's general standard of performance was incredibly high. He might not have worked as hard as Kobashi but who in the hell ever did? I'd say he was better week to week than Misawa in those years. I guess my overall take would be that you're jumping to some very broad conclusions based on an incomplete review of his career.

She has a shot to be my top-ranked Joshi worker. I don't know about easily better than Kong, but yeah, maybe.

Robinson - Ahead of his time with combo of matwork and big moves Jumbo - Also ahead of his time with suplexes and moves off the top rope, kept adjusting to keep up with the next generation Hansen - Not fancy but incredible impact, often from odd angles, and he kept adding stuff to the repertoire into the '90s Liger - Huge array of high spots, power moves and strikes, all of which he absolutely nailed Misawa - Once he took the mask off, brought an unmatched combination of grace and force Kobashi - As big a bag of moves as anyone, ranging from the basic to the most devastating, and he did them all well Eaton - World-class punches and killer top-rope moves in the same package Danielson - Another guy with a vast array of stuff, from submissions to high spots to suplexes, and he executed it all superbly Vader - No need to elaborate Steve Williams - Peak didn't last long but he was an offensive machine at his All-Japan best Hijo Del Santo - Most gorgeous package of signature spots, and he's been hitting them all perfectly for 35 years Marty Jones - Could be stiff and nasty but also really athletic Finlay - Every single thing looked like it hurt Benoit - Terrific execution, looked equally comfortable trading high spots with the NJ juniors or slugging it out with Regal and Finlay Styles - Might be the best right now ... what I love is that even when he does something flippy, he makes sure to deliver a blow on the end I know I'm forgetting some other great ones ...

Dave didn't even sound very excited about it.

To be fair, I don't think expressiveness is the only reason you might rank him above the others. He's also arguably the greatest offensive wrestler in history.

I really do wish I could understand where you and others are coming from on this, but I really don't see it. Perhaps part of wider disconnect from lucha, but who knows. Breaks for me is one of the most natural heels ever and this cam be obvious from just one match. Character work 10/10. It's fine. You watched the matches. They didn't hit your sweet spot. Nothing to be done about it.

El Dandy at his 1990 peak was as good as any wrestler I've ever seen. He could fly, brawl or work the mat with equal mastery and slide comfortably up and down the rudo-tecnico continuum. I like Breaks quite a bit as both a heel character and an excellent technician. He'll be top 50 at worst on my GWE list. But I've never watched one of his matches and thought I might be looking at the best ever.

He was quite good in the Valentine match, selling and showing the requisite babyface fire. I liked that one in general.

Where's this from? I love their other matches and would like to see it. edit: I see there are actually four Jones/Rocco bouts on the Jones comp I got from Carl. Wonder if that's one of them?

There's a Flair-Tenryu match from '84 and it was in fact, not as good.

I hear you. I often watch from the treadmill and find that I'm generally harsher on matches that come on during the last 1/3 of my workout.

So that's why you're down on Hansen huh? His cardio just pisses you off 😀