Dooley

So much "history of WWF". So little of who Vince is or is not.

Back to "Who killed WCW?" , I mostly concur with TK and dawho. It's my POV that corporate decisions had way more to do with the company having the plug pulled than anything creative (even under Russo). I think some others may be looking at it through a "wrestling lens". I listened to Cornette's review of episode 4, and it was borderline embarrassing how unable he was to see the forest for the trees. The Disney tapings were a great idea not only from a financial perspective but it also gave WCW the chance to co-brand with Disney. House shows were hemorrhaging and it's not like the syndicated shows were being taped at some sort of hallowed grounds before that. Now, the scheduling... And TNN couldn't have found room for another WWF property ? At the time, WWF had a 2 hour block on Saturday night of velocity and confidential. There's no reason WWF couldn't have put a WCW show in that timeslot if they had been motivated to do so.

I'd learn more towards the business side than the creative, as bad as it got. They had interviews with Turner execs who weren't even in the WCW part of the company and the WCW really dId feel like the unwanted part of the Turner empire.

Haven't seen anything here about the death of WCW miniseries, so apologies if this is in the wrong place. The first 2 episodes were mostly rehash but episode 4 did a really good job of painting a great picture of the corporate meddling and undermining of WCW, and Stu Snyder pretty much admitting the fix was in on WWF's purchase. The only comment I have on episode 3 was that the little woman walked in while I was watching it. She had no idea who Vince Russo was but asked "why does he always sound like he's lying?"

The Kevin line that stuck with me was when he admitted that he had heard Adams stories but was shocked and disgusted hearing them back to back. Kevin seems like a decent guy but either had blinders on or was willfully ignorant of things that were happening around him, including his own family.

I didn't know about the Lapsed Fan podcast, despite the fellas being known around these parts. Their "Dark Side of the Ring" companion podcast showed up in my YT feed and I have to say it's fantastic. Keep doing it guys, you're doing it right. Highest recommendation.

"You don't say no to Jimmy". That episode is worth it for anyone with even a passing interest in hockey or mob types.

Points for a take I've never seen before anyway.

Beg pardon? It's a fictional character. It would be like going after him for a role in one of his movies. Whoever tried would be laughed out of the room.

I really enjoyed this. Obviously, they messed around with the chronology a bit, that's to be expected for pacing. Kudos to the casting director for finding a really good Harley Race and a comically bad Ric Flair. All the main characters did well in their roles and it was nice to see Maura Tierney again, who I hadn't seen for a while. I think the brothers' reunion scene was meant to be Kevin's fantasy as he was looking down at Kerry's body. In Kevin's mind, Kerry was rowing up the river Styx (you even saw him laying out the tip) and was crossing over to be with the rest of the brothers. Agreed on Mike being given more depth than the pro wrestling story usually gives him. That was a nice addition. All in all, a really well done film.

Who spells "pussy" with an "e"?

1998.

Your argument seems to focus more on the creative aspect of the company. I don't know that Vince cares more about that than adding an extra zero to his cash out. If Vince's point of view is that when he dies, the company dies (right or wrong), then it's reasonable to assume that his point of view is that he who dies with the most money wins.

With all due respect, it seems like you're focusing way more on rasslin storylines than billions of dollars.

Was it really an evil plan to get back into full power or just maximize his cash-out?

I think the biggest issue is that JR just flat out refuses to do any sort of show prep. Which is his right, but leads to the problems you've mentioned.

That was a nice interruption, back to our regularly scheduled programming I completely co-sign the first part of your post. I think some people may forget how stale both the big 2 were in 1995. Hogan going heel and aligning with the 2 former WWF stars really did make Nitro destination programming. Many things that were happening were creative and unique to the presentation and watching the ultimate do-gooder babyface Hogan shitting all over the rest of the world was an undeniable hook. On his ring psychology, the transformation from Superman babyface to chickenshit heel was giving the WCW audience what they had desperately wanted since 1994: license to hate him. While Hulkamania definitely drew more eyeballs to WCW than the early 90's doldrums, I think everyone is in agreement that it wasn't what made WCW hardcore fans tick. The more they tried, the more the pushback. By completely removing everything redeemable about Hogan, it gave the WCW audience the license to completely hate him and generate nuclear heel heat that hadn't been seen in a long time before that. A decent comparable would be Cactus Jack's heel run in 95 where he went full anti-hardcore, going for namby-pamby promos and insisting on working matches using mostly headlocks. Take away everything people liked about the original character to create something new. You seem to be weaving in and out of kayfabe here. Is it the presentation of the character that you don't like or is it the perceived "backstage" stuff? If the answer is "both", that tells me that Hogan is a master of psychology for drawing such a vehement reaction. No one is motivated enough to just drop a "Ted Arcidi sucked" post with no context. Hogan going heel instantly shuffled the deck and made rivalries with Flair, Savage and Piper fresh again. People were emotionally invested and borderline desperate to see Hogan get his ass kicked by the WCW icon Flair, his historical rival Savage (the Elizabeth intrigue added a nice touch too), and the returning Piper. Did anyone think Piper had any juice left after his commisioner run in WWF? But they were able to turn back the clock for a couple of months for Starrcade 96 and the build to it. The fact that Hall and Nash "did the heavy lifting" was all part of the character. People were desperate to see Hogan get his ass kicked but he kept getting saved by his goons. It's like any action movie or video game, you wait until the end for the big boss to get destroyed. In '97 Hogan was so hated that he drove the charismatically-challenged Lex Luger to his biggest babyface reactions in history, much more than the WWF's much larger attempt at it. Sting got more over than he has ever been by hanging out in the rafters and dropping down on the occasional Nitro to clean house simply because fans wanted to see WCW's last hope destroy Hogan. They let it simmer and did the biggest buyrate in company history. You can argue against the match itself and the fallout, but any attempt to discredit the effectiveness of the build and the massive business it did is an attempt to rewrite history. Yes, the wheels fell off in 98. Everything has a shelf life. If they had managed the Wolfpac/Hollywood split differently and gave people the Hall/Nash vs Hogan/Savage rivalry that people wanted to see, maybe we would remember it differently. Maybe not. Ifs and buts and all that. Again, it may not be your cup of tea or what you enjoy in pro wrestling, but Hogan didn't suck. He carried two companies on his back in consecutive decades. Once by having people love him and wanting to see him win, once by having people hate him and wanting to see him lose.

Well doesn't it stand to reason that if it drew those numbers people other than yourself were digging it? There hasn't even been an argument presented other than "it was bad". The 95 vs 96 comparison especially threw me. You really prefer Hogan vs the Dungeon of Doom to the NWO? "Ahhh! It's not hot!"

Maybe not your cup of tea, but sheer numbers suggest you're in the minority on that one. He was the hottest heel in the business for 2 solid years. And you may be genuinely the first one to put forth the take that 95 face Hogan > 96 heel Hogan.

I feel like Rick Martel has to be mentioned if we're talking about hot tags or rope work.

https://youtu.be/hgl97piyxE8

Here is said article. Doesn't sound like he was in a good place. https://www.theplayerstribune.com/posts/sting-aew-wrestling

Bischoff has admitted as much on his podcast, saying it was due to Sting's pill addiction at the time The reason he went with the infamous "not tanned" line was because Sting hadn't yet talked about his drug issues publicly.

His wrestling version of "12 days of Xmas" is worth the price of admission.

What's the deal with DDP bailing on the "DDP snake pit" and Jake going solo?