FLIK

Heh, surprisingly that's almost exactly what my list would be as far as the most important stuff goes. I'd add these 3 as 150% must haves 1/16/1998 (6 Man Street Fight Tag Titles) Hayabusa, Masato Tanaka & Hisakatsu Oya © vs Yukihiro Kanemura, Mr. Gannosuke & Jado 6/19/1998 Hayabusa, Daisuke Ikeda, Hisakatsu Oya & Ricky Fuji vs Kodo Fuyuki, Koji Nakagawa, Yukihiro Kanemura & Gedo 7/10/1998 (Elimination Match) Hayabusa, Daisuke Ikeda, Hisakatsu Oya & Ricky Fuji vs Kodo Fuyuki, Koji Nakagawa, Jado & Gedo I'd cut these 2 04/30/98 - Atsushi Onita vs Kodo Fuyuki 11/20/98 - Mr. Gannosuke vs Tetsuhiro Kuroda I actually like both a lot but you guys always seem pressed for space and when it comes down to cutting something i'd have 0 problem with these not being on if it meant the other stuff would make it. IF by some miracle you do end up having room for all the above and can fit a little more i'd also highly recomend these 2 7/10/1998 Mike Awesome vs Yukihiro Kanemura 12/13/1998 Mr. Gannosuke vs Yukihiro Kanemura Actually i'd recomend those 2 over Onita/Fuyuki & Gannosuke/Kuroda if it came down to it.

These i'd say are absolutely must haves 5/1/98 (Super Hardcore Match) Shoji Nakamaki, Masked G.K, Mitsuhiro Matsunaga & Jason The Terrible vs The Great Pogo, Shadow WX, Shadow Winger & Shadow VI - One of the most famous BJW death matches ever, 2 rings, every weapon you can imagine, pure chaotic awesomeness at it's very very best. 7/26/98 Shadow WX vs Tomoaki Honma - Just a great great match and one of the first new generation style death matches

Couple random TV matches I remember liking Brock in around mid 02 was his singles vs Flair & a tag w him & Eddie vs RVD & Bubba Ray

Heh, I largely hate MMA & am usually bored watching it but even I went out of my way to see Lesnar's fights (and his TUF season)....until he started losing like a bitch. Meltzer said HHH was against it for some reason and was the one who convinced them to stop doing it with Lesnar & not to do it very much with others over the years.

Actually he kind of did

Well, in UFC Lesnar headlined sevral shows that did million+ buys on PPV. How much of that same audiance crosses over is a diffrent story. Personally I think the amount of ppl who're primarily WWE/wrestling fans in general who will also watch UFC and follow Lesnar over thear is bigger then the amount of fans who're mostly into UFC but will ocasionally watch wrestling but I don't think either group is that big now. I agree with Meltzer's beliefe that a large chunk of UFC's audiance when they first got hot was made up of current/former disgruntled wrestling fans but that was many years ago when that happened. 100% think the Wrestling & MMA = same thing line is BS but I can see how both can appeal to the same crowd atleast.

Oh geez, Roland easy. Colt's a guy hustlin to get paid but is mostly honest about it, Roland's an out & out liar who'll take advantage of anyone he can and fuck you over with no hesitation. I enjoyed how he shit on all the other local training schools when half the guys APW books on top of their shows these days are outside talent that were trained at said schools but that's a whole other story and Roland isn't the actual booker of APW anymore so doesn't have as much to do with the talent being brought in as he used to.

Fit Finlay vs Chris Adams 10/17/1981 Shockingly this ruled Clean shaven 23 yr old skinny Finlay is still a mean old bastard. Walton says this is his first time making tv and he makes quite the first impression. He cheats his way into having the crowd ready to kill within a few rounds but also wrestles well enough to have Walton marking out, hoping to see more of him and comparing him to a young Dynamite Kid. Adams is right thear along with him going blow for blow. Loved the segment whear they're on their knees just sluging it out. Hm, what don't you like about Naylor? I've only seen 3 or 4 matches of his but 2 of them are in my best bouts list to he's OK in my book. Haven't seen Nagasaki/Myers, I think I may have seen some Screen Sport but i'm not 100% on that. Looking it up real quick it seems to be All Star stuff from the late 80's and if that's what you're referring to then yeah i've seen a bit. What are you guys thoughts on Zoltan Boscik? He's one of the guys I took an early liking to and tracked down as much as I could from him which sadly isn't much. In the early to mid 70's he looks like someone who'd be a GOAT contender if their was more footage available but then once you get into the later parts of his career by the 80's he's reduced to playing gaga heel, with a lot of signature comedy bumps and routine spots.....like a British Ric Flair...

Backlash like this always comes with the territory when you're doing any type of ratings/rankings. I was thinking about this the other day and yeah, usually if someone makes a comment along the lines of some variat of "I enjoyed this match a whole fuckin lot" most ppl's response is usually "cool" and then they move on but so help you god if you drop five snow flakes on it or make a X > Y statement like "this is the 3rd best match of the year and there's been very few better in the last decade" it'll usually degenerate into a 3 page sub topic like we've got here

11/21/1987 (World Heavyweight Title) Wayne Bridges © vs Kendo Nagasaki I know this is supposed to be a best of thread but this was so bad I had to bring it up. Maybe i've just been lucky but one of the things I like about WoS is that I rarely run into crap matches. Not that all of them are good of course but most will atleast qualify as average, with enough good parts to make them watchable and not a complete waste of time. This, was awful though, scared the crap out of me to know it was scheduled for 15 rounds as I was sick of it by the 3rd and wanting to gouge my eyes out by the 5th or 6th. They're full on 100% into the entertainment era by now and the most amusing highlights of this were Kendo & his manager George Cullen calling out Hulk Hogan in a pre match promo backstage and the match ending in a freakin ref bump (first time i've ever seen one in a WoS match) allowing Kendo to get the win by attacking Bridges from behind as he was helping the ref up. Post match is insane with Kendo, a small kid about 7 or 8 yrs old dressed up like Kendo that he brought to the ring with him, his manager and Kendo's fan club which mainly seemed to consist of dirty hippies and ppl that looked like Manson family rejects all having a giant celebration in the ring while the rest of the crowd pelts them with garbage. All poor Kent Walton can do utter "well that was certainly diffrent" as they go off the air. Top 10 worst WoS match i've seen easy. On a more positive note, the same episode had a Marty Jones vs Cas Martin match from 3/27/1982 that was damn good. It ended way too early when Martin too a sick bump over the top for the KO finish in the 5th or so round but up until then it was great action. Reminds me that I really need to see more Cas Martin matches as he's been really impressive in the few i've seen so far and looked like he was prob one of the better guys of his era.

I think it's worked fine for AAA and some of the lucha indies. Many modern CMLL matches are practically 1 fall matches anyways. Instead of 2 min fall, 5 mins of replays & commercials, 2 min fall, 5 mins of replays & commercials, 10 min fall, i'd rather just have a 14 min 1 fall match with no interuptions. As for the original topic This is a very partial list of the best lucha stuff i've seen AAA 8/28/1992 Angel Azteca, Solar I & Super Astro vs Blue Panther, El Cobarde & El Indómito 10/9/1992 Super Astro vs Blue Panther 11/6/1994 Benoit, Scorpio & Santana vs Estrada, La Parka & Blue Panther 11/6/1994 El Hijo Del Santo & Octagon vs Art Barr & Eddie Guerrero 6/6/2010 (Winner gets La Parka Name) L.A. Park vs La Parka CMLL 8/11/1991 (NWA World Middle Weight Title) Atlantis © vs Blue Panther 4/3/1992 Atlantis vs La Fiera 7/3/1992 (Vacant CMLL World Middleweight Title) El Dandy vs Negro Casas 7/16/1993 Chris Jericho & Ultimo Dragon vs Negro Casas & El Dandy 12/6/1996 (Hair vs Hair vs Mask 3 Way) El Dandy vs Negro Casas vs El Hijo Del Santo 1/7/1997 (CMLL Minis Title) Damien El Guerrero © vs Cicloncito Ramirez 8/15/1999 Arkangel, Zumbido & Ultimo Guerrero vs Solar, Oriental & Mr. Niebla 9/28/2001 Juventud Guerrera Fuerza Guerrera Universo Dos Mil & Dr. Wagner Jr vs Villano 4 Black Tiger El Hijo Del Lizmark & Negro Casas 3/2/2012 (Hair vs Hair) Blue Panther vs Negro Casas Also a mention for 2005 CMLL TV from around mid year on as watching that is what first got me into lucha in a big way beyond the ocasional match here and thear and whear I think I first "got" lucha period. It's anchored by 2 really great feuds in Perro Jr & Sr, Pierroth & co vs Cien Caras, Mascara Ano 2000, Universo 2000 which produced a lot of good brawls and Mistico with various partners (Atlantis, Wagner, Santo, Casas, Panther, etc...) vs various combos of Ultimo Guerrero, Bucanero, Averno, Mephisto, Olimpico, Tarzan Boy, etc... which produced a lot of good "workrate" action style matches. Indy 11/01/2002 Shu El Guerrero & Negro Navarro vs Skyde & Solar 1/17/2009 Solar I, Super Astro & Ultraman vs Black Power, Negro Navarro & El Signo 1/17/2009 Scorpio Jr. & Shu el Guerrero vs Los Villano IV & Villano V 9/11/2011 (Hardcore Match) Sexy Lady vs Ludark Shaitan 9/17/2011 Psycho Circus vs Fake Doink the Clown, Giant Clown & Beast the Clown 10/15/2011 Nicho El Millonario vs Negro Navarro 1/15/2012 Blue Panther, Atlantis & Solar vs Ultimo Guerrero, Felino & Negro Navarro 2/25/2012 Hijo del Santo & Villano IV vs Angel Blanco Jr. & Hijo del Solitario 3/8/2012 Sexy Lady & Alan Extreme vs Ludark Shaitan & Golden Magic And if we're counting Hamada's UWF in Japan 6/1/1990 (UWA Light Heavyweight Title) Gran Hamada © vs Perro Aguayo Sr 6/7/1990 (UWA Middleweight Title) Yoshinari Asai © vs Negro Casas 11/17/1990 Yoshihiro Asai & Kato Kung Lee vs Blue Panther & Black Power 11/17/1990 (UWA 6 Man Tag Titles) Los Brazos vs Gran Hamada Blackman & Kendo

So if they do do Cena/Taker I wonder what the odds are they try and pretend that match never happened like they did with the first HHH/Taker Mania bout? Brisco, Patterson, who else? Slaughter duh

I will check it out if I have time, but I would want to know more about Okada and Naito and whether they have any sort of charisma because that type of psychology bores the crap out of me in Japanese wrestling. Hmmm, no clue if it'll appeal to you or not but they were over as hell with the ppl in the building atleast. Sold out K-Hall (which is rare these days) going nuts and treating both guys like superstars the whole way through so I thought it was an awesome atmosphere and it never felt like the action draged to me. I went in pretty cold as well also having only seen a few Naito matches and nothing from Okada but the context of the match is pretty easy to understand. Two young guys in the middle of their first big push, one's a cocky prick the other's your standard fighting spirit babyface and they're getting a shot to headline a big show for the world title and prove themselves as top guys.

I was amused by Alvarez arguing things would be diffrent and he'll be motivated now because he's back in WWE instead of just Japan. Mid 2007 vs Angle was his last one.

Heh, that was pretty damn great. Never would have guessed Mike Tenazy & Larry Zybysko were giant pot heads. Interesting to hear the story on how the deal to bring in Yokozuna to WCW fell apart and that he was gonna play a gangster & team up with Konnan to fight Hall & Nash.

W*ING 7/11/1993 (War Games) Freddy Kruger, Jado & Gedo vs Mitsuhiro Matsunaga, Kintaro Kanemura & Miguel Perez Jr. W*ING 8/25/1993 (Captain Falls Elimination Barbed Wire Bat Scramble Bunkhouse Deathmatch) Freddy Kruger, Jado, Gedo, Invader 2 & Invader 3 vs Crash The Terminator, Shoji Nakamaki, Masayoshi Motegi, Nobutaka Araya & Fukumen Taro Looking at the lineups I exspect most would know what to exspect from these and they more then deliver. 2 really awesome brawls that i'd put up against any of the gimmick matches from anywhere else in 93 as the best of the year. Hugh Morris was over as hell in this match and just wrecking things up. W*ING 8/25/1993 Kevin Sullivan vs Kanemura ......this has not been a good year for Kanemura. First Sullivan stabs him in the arm, then Sullivan stabs him in the eye, somewhear along the way, possibly in the Wargames he broke his foot. Mr. Pogo who they were building up to face Sullivan quit to go back to FMW a few months earlier because they threw a shit load of money at him. Matsunaga, the top face of the company & Kanemura's friend did the same shortly before this show. Kanemura gives a really emotional, teary eyed state of the union speach to start off the show. Sullivan has no sympathy for the man with 1 arm, 1 eye, 1 leg and a broken heart. Sullivan rushes into the locker room before their match, bust him open, drags him into the arena bleeding, caves his head in with a few dozen chairs or so and then threatens to cut up some more body parts before the rest of the W*ING roster runs in to save him. Add in that he got set on fire by Jado & Gedo a few months later and that the promotion was dead by the time he was ready to return....yeah not a good year for Kanemura but fuck if the scenery wasn't nice traveling the highway to hell for W*ING in 1993. This is all on youtube BTW for the curious

Well, hey, if you ran into a dude that fat you'd be more likely to get knocked down then him

That's a silly nitpick. The Heel ref act has never worked that way ever in any promotion. You can fast count the guy you want to lose, you can beat him up, you can mysteriously get something in your eye or conveinyantly pull a muscle in your arm when he's going for a pin but dag nabit, when his shoulders are down they still gotta be down for 3. Don't get the ppl who thought it was dumb for Cena to lose as well. The Rock's coming back for more shows, this wasn't the blow off of the story it was the start or atleast first big peak. Even tho half or more of the crowd hates him, Cena's still the #1 good guy and the #1 good guy doesn't need to win until the end. If Cena won whear would you go from thear? You're pretty much stuck with Rock chasing him for a re-match which doesn't work as well. With Rock winning you can stretch out Cena's chase for redemption and fight back to the top and insert any # of guys in the middle of the story to try and take down Rock. I'd go all the way and fuckin have Rock run through as much of the roster as you can, take the title off Punk late in the year, Cena wins the Rumble and gets his win back at Mania next year the conquering hero which would mean so much more then if he'd beaten him first time out no sweat.

Little bit off topic but i've been reading more into the history of W*ING today which i'd never paid too much attention to before and the "partners" who started the promotion were Kazuyoshi Osako & Mickey Ibaragi, 2 of the guys who helped Onita start FMW and left because they were disgruntled with him. Lots of talent stealing, atempted talent stealing and bitterness ensued between the 2 companies until FMW stole Pogo back then Matsunaga a few months later in 93 effectively killing W*ING as a seperate company by 94 leading to Quioness & the rest of the ex W*ING crew to start up IWA Japan which resulted in another War between those companies. Hm, there's a fair amount of 91 W*ING on youtube, possibly all their shows actually, I might check that out soon.

I've never really thought of it that way. But it's pretty much true, isn't it? When did Lawler ref? The story I always heard him tell was he knew a guy working on an outlaw indy show and they conned the promoter into thinking he was trained when he wasn't and kept getting booked because he could give their shows free pub on his local radio show.

I'm also fine with it because they'll get 20+ on the nxt ppv, probably the next after that and possibly a few times for free on tv too since WWE rematches everything to death.

I still think Sheamus/Bryan going crazy short was a good idea. Ideally you want to have both a great match and a memorable moment at Mania but from day 1 I was 99% sure they weren't gonna get enough time to have the former so atleast this qualifies as the latter. Mania's littered with stuff that looked great on paper, got a few mins and thus ended up being completely forgetable

He was, 50 + stiches.

So uhhhh, hey, remember how in March W*ING Kanemura showed up in SMW and Kevin Sullivan stabed his ass in the arm for his troubles? 2 months later on 5/27/93 Sullivan shows up at a W*ING show in Japan at K-Hall, beats the fuckin dog piss out of Kanemura for 12 mins, paints the building with his blood and stabs him in the eye. It's pretty damn awesome

Has Victor Quinones ever been on the HoF ballot? I don't think necisarily think he should be in but he's got a heck of a resume. - Involved in wrestling for almost 30 years - Booked for a # of promotion's in multiple countries - Was the talent agent for even more promotions and was responsible for a TON of guys getting their big breaks outside of their native countries with the biggest example being probably Tajiri who he helped get into Mexico, ECW & the WWF. - Helped start up atleast 3 promotions, most notably IWA Puerto Rico - Worked for the WWF for several years and for a while IWA PR was a dev territory for them - On screen manager for many of the companies he worked for Seems weird not to have a guy like that atleast be in the discussion.