JerryvonKramer

Well, there was someone who suggested Heenan should be a 10. All things considered, I think 8 is fair for him, Vince and Cornette, considering how special it was when any of them were ever in the ring. I mean Heenan was hugely over in the 70s and 80s in any match he had. Cornette's antics in Mid-South almost started riots, he's a very effective performer who had amazing heat. etc. The suggestion that I am in any way anti-Japanese and that is factoring into my scores is vaguely insulting. And also not true. To some eyes, your post might suggest an anti-US bias on your part. I think it is fair to say that character work and the "intangibles" side of wrestling is played up more in US wrestling than it is in Japanese wrestling, and hence you'll see more guys with higher ratings there. Japan favoured a stronger in-ring product and ran fewer angles and storylines. The idea that a Memphis wrestler might out score an AJ guy on intangibles isn't that far fetched, it's a reflection of the product. I mean you've said you think Dory should be a 6 and Backlund should be a 7 which suggests to me that you haven't quite grasped what this rating is really about. It's not a measure of stardom, success, drawing or anything like that, it's a measure of character work and X factor.

Just to mention that I totally get why Shane would get a huge reaction. I'm trying to think of an equivalent, but struggling. Unique set of circumstances. Like gone long enough and out of the blue enough that it's a genuine surprise, and enough positive feelings towards the guy that people are genuinely happy to see him. Mr. Perfect got quite a big reaction when he appeared at that Rumble in 2002, I mean they botched the run, but he got a big reaction. Closest one I can think of.

There's nothing I disagree with in your first four paragraphs. Nothing at all. What I objected to was this suggestion that Flair somehow tanked in Japan. He didn't, he was perfectly fine. That's all the point ever was. The stuff about Misawa vs. Kobashi, which is how all this started, isn't quite true because, personally, I feel like I "get" Misawa and am pretty damn high on him. He does resonate with me. He does! I get stoicism because for god's sake I'm British! It's not like stoicism is some foreign concept. And I also grew up looking to Japan a lot, for various different reasons. But ... And here's where we might come at an impasse, I don't really think Misawa's stoicism is as great as Kobashi's expressiveness. Whatever that means. I think Kobashi produces an additional sort of electricity in the building that Misawa doesn't. The similarity to Martel and Steamer is actually immaterial since they both scored ... 4 for intangibles. For some basis of comparison, here are some other guys on 6: Ted DiBiase The Sheik Jumbo Sgt. Slaughter Three of the most over heel acts in history and Misawa's equivalent in the 80s. Here are some other guys on 8: Nick Bockwinkel Bobby Heenan Vince McMahon Jim Cornette And here are the guys at 10: Hulk Hogan Bruno Sammartino Steve Austin Ric Flair Andre I don't really see how that set of ratings is the result of any personal bias. The guys at 6 are all time great at generating heat and for portraying their characters in the ring, the guys at 8 are that and then some, the guys at 10 are transcendent. I see Misawa as an all-time great for the intangibles, but not more. The 6 IS the credit for his amazing ability to be the stoical ace. If you think it's worth more than that cool. But I object to some accusation that I'm playing favourites.

http://placetobenation.com/all-japan-excite-series-13/ Steven and Parv are back to discuss four more great matches from 90s All Japan: 07/09/96 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue 07/24/96 - Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue 09/05/96 - Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi 09/05/96 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace

Responding to Jimmy's post here, but thought this would be better here. I'd hope that Harley wouldn't drop all the way out and, if he did, I'd wonder what that was based on exactly. #12 is absurdly high for him, for sure, but all that means is that he's not really in contention for #1 or top 10. He's still a GREAT worker: innovative, hard working, great bumper, great on offense, a good variety of memorable matches with different opponents, great at pacing a match, etc. etc. I just think it's one of those cases where the critical pendulum might swing too far in the other direction. Backlash can be as critically unreflexive and fierce as received wisdom sometimes. Also: one of the best Andre opponents, one of the best Baba opponents, one of the best von Erichs opponents, one of the best Hogan opponents, and also a really good Rick Martel opponent.

Okay, so I kind of forgot about this for 18 months, but look at this: And the guys that no one discussed. Poor Paul Jones, he was a good worker in the 1970s too.

I've bolded those I see who are in real danger of not making the collective 100 this time around. I'm wondering how many of those Joshi workers are going to be casualties. I just don't see many discussing them at all: 1. Jumbo Tsuruta – 4,594 points - 48 votes – 14 #1 votes - 35 top 5 votes - 40 top 10 votes - VHB This Is Workrate, Smoove Luv B, gordi, Mike Oles, ElPatoume, Ditch, Wolverine, Goodhelmet, wagnerpanther, Owen, Real Man’s man, Theseus, throughsilver, Famous Mortimer # 1 2. Toshiaki Kawada – 4,477 points - 48 votes – 7 #1 votes - 27 top 5 votes -36 top 10 votes - VHB Bozzaholic, Dangerous Dan, roro ur boat, JHM, Rainmaker, Monday Night Jericho, Ray #1 3. Chris Benoit – 4,442 points - 49 votes - 13 top 5 votes - 30 top 10 votes - VHB Andrew D Lacelle, Wild Pegasus #2 4. Jushin Thunder Liger – 4,388 points - 48 votes – 2 #1 votes - 15 top 5 votes - 34 top 10 votes - VHB Dan T, AoA #1 5. Kenta Kobashi – 4,311 points - 47 votes – 1 #1 vote - 15 top 5 votes - 40 top 10 votes - VHB greenman #1 6. Mitsuharu Misawa – 4,255 points - 47 votes – 12 top 5 votes - 28 top 10 votes - VHB Floyd, gordi, throughsilver #2 7. Eddie Guerrero – 4,190 points - 49 votes – 3 #1 votes – 8 top 5 votes - 21 top 10 votes - VHB Stunning Grover, Eivion Thanotos, WOODOO #1 8. Ric Flair – 4,141 points – 48 votes – 8 #1 votes – 13 top 5 votes – 23 top 10 votes - VHB Floyd, Shozo the strong, anarchistxx, Rocket Moose, Dylan Waco, Big Rob, Shoe, Loss #1 9. Bret Hart – 3,707 points - 46 votes – 3 #1 votes – 9 top 5 votes – 13 top 10 votes - VHB Andrew D Lacelle, Slick Rick, Insane Clown #1 10. Stan Hansen – 3,669 points - 45 votes – 2 top 5 votes – 10 top 10 votes - VHB Andrew D Lacelle #3 11. Terry Funk – 3,573 points - 43 votes – 8 top 5 votes - 15 top 10 votes - VHB Rocket Moose, Dylan Waco, Big Rob #2 12. Harley Race – 3,501 points - 42 votes – 1 #1 vote - 8 top 5 votes - 15 top 10 votes - VHB Rob Naylor #1 13. Ricky Steamboat – 3,301 points - 45 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 4 top 10 votes - VHB Big Rob #3 14. Dynamite Kid – 3,250 points - 45 votes – 2 #1 votes – 2 top 5 votes - 8 top 10 votes - VHB Wild Pegasus, Warriorfan #1 15. Akira Hokuto – 3,244 points - 36 votes – 1 #1 vote - 11 top 5 votes - 21 top 10 votes - VHB Mr Dragon #1 16. Steve Austin – 3,178 points - 44 votes – 2 top 5 votes - 8 top 10 votes - VHB anarchistxx, SE Williams #3 17. Vader – 3,157 points - 43 votes – 4 top 10 votes - VHB Big Rob #6 18. Aja Kong – 3,135 points - 38 votes – 4 top 5 votes - 11 top 10 votes - VHB FLIK #2 19. Nobuhiko Takada – 3,062 points - 36 votes - 2 #1 votes - 8 top 5 votes - 17 top 10 votes - VHB Rob Edwards, Frank O’Keefe #1 20. El Hijo Del Santo – 2,922 points - 35 votes – 5 top 5 votes - 11 top 10 votes - VHB Smoove Luv B, Bix, Loss #3 21. Genichiro Tenryu – 2,870 points - 40 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 3 top 10 votes VHB Eivion Thanotos #5 22. Rey Mysterio Jr – 2,791 points - 39 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Eivion Thanotos #4 23. Jaguar Yokoda – 2,613 points - 32 votes – 1 #1 vote - 5 top 5 votes – 9 top 10 votes - VHB Ohtani’s Jacket #1 24. Shinya Hashimoto – 2,509 points - 38 votes – 2 top 10 votes - VHB WOODOO #6 25. The Destroyer – 2,463 points - 33 votes – 3 top 5 votes –4 top 10 votes - VHB Ohtani’s Jacket #3 26. Akira Taue – 2,439 points - 39 votes - VHB Eivion Thanotos #11 27. Shinjiro Ohtani – 2,409 points - 39 votes - VHB This Is Workrate #12 28. Barry Windham – 2,386 points - 37 votes - VHB Andrew D Lacelle #11 29. Manami Toyota – 2,299 points - 33 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 5 top 10 votes - VHB greenman #3 30. Giant Baba – 2,180 points - 27 votes - VHB Slick Rick #19 31. Mayumi Ozaki – 2,140 points - 29 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 5 top 10 votes - VHB Wild Pegasus #5 32. Blue Panther – 2,099 points - 28 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 5 top 10 votes VHB Stunning Grover #4 33. Hiro Hase – 2,069 points - 33 votes - VHB This Is Workrate, anarchistxx #20 34. Arn Anderson – 2,058 points - 35 votes - VHB Big Rob #11 35. Devil Masami – 2,014 points - 27 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 5 top 10 votes - VHB Famous Mortimer #3 36. Billy Robinson – 1,974 points - 27 votes - VHB Rocket Moose #11 37. Owen Hart – 1,963 points - 36 votes - VHB Ray #16 38. Negro Casas – 1,960 points - 25 votes – 3 top 5 votes – 5 top 10 votes - VHB Stunning Grover, wagnerpanther #2 39. Chigusa Nagayo – 1,958 points - 28 votes – 2 top 5 votes – 2 top 10 votes - VHB FLIK #3 40. Ted Dibiase – 1,942 points – 32 votes – 1 #1 vote – 1 top 5 vote - 2 top 10 votes - VHB – SE Williams #1 41. Jerry Lawler – 1,927 points - 29 votes – 1 #1 vote – 2 top 5 votes – 4 top 10 votes VHB Bix #1 42. Volk Han – 1,920 points - 27 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 6 top 10 votes - VHB Benoitsmark #2 43. Bull Nakano – 1,832 points - 28 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 1 top 10 vote VHB Mr Dragon #4 44. Randy Savage – 1,794 points - 30 votes – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Andrew D Lacelle #10 45. Curt Hennig – 1,786 points - 34 votes – VHB Mr Dragon #17 46. Shawn Michaels – 1,784 points - 30 votes – 1 top 10 vote VHB Insane Clown #10 47. Terry Gordy – 1,717 points - 28 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Rob Naylor #3 48. Jack Brisco – 1,585 points - 25 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 2 top 10 votes - VHB Shoe #4 49. Bobby Eaton – 1,581 points - 30 votes - VHB Goodhelmet #24 50. Jun Akiyama – 1,557 points - 27 votes - VHB Ditch #16 51. Dick Murdoch – 1,521 points – 24 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Real man’s man #5 52. Steve Williams – 1,510 points - 32 votes - VHB Eivion Thanotos #13 53. Keiji Mutoh – 1,498 points - 30 votes - VHB Slick Rick #14 54. Steve Regal – 1,494 points - 30 votes - VHB Stunning Grover #13 55. Dave Finlay – 1,469 points - 27 votes – 1 #1 vote – 1 top 5 vote – 2 top 10 votes - VHB Benoitsmark #1 56. Nick Bockwinkel –1,451 points - 24 votes - VHB SE Williams #11 57. Tully Blanchard – 1,442 points - 26 votes - VHB Ohtani’s Jacket #14 58. Tatsumi Fujinami – 1,441 points – 26 votes - 1 top 10 vote - VHB WOODOO #8 59. Mariko Yoshida – 1,438 points - 24 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Benoitsmark #3 60. Dynamite Kansai – 1,381 points - 21 votes - VHB Wild Pegasus #16 61. Akira Maeda – 1,326 points - 24 votes - VHB Benoitsmark #11 62. Ultimo Dragon – 1,303 points - 32 votes - VHB throughsilver #15 63. Kiyoshi Tamura – 1,277 points - 23 votes – 2 top 10 votes - VHB Benoitsmark, Theseus #8 64. The Rock – 1,268 points - 26 votes – 2 top 10 votes - VHB AoA #8 65. Kyoko Inoue – 1,176 points - 21 votes – 1 top 10 vote VHB FLIK #7 66. Kazuo Yamazaki – 1,173 points - 20 votes – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Benoitsmark #10 67. El Dandy – 1,171 points - 19 votes – 4 top 5 votes – 4 top 10 votes VHB Ohtani’s Jacket, Bix #2 68. Tiger Mask – 1,143 points – 22 votes – VHB Warriorfan #11 69. Dory Funk Jr – 1,143 points – 21 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 3 top 10 votes – VHB Theseus #5 70. Mick Foley – 1,134 points – 23 votes – 2 top 10 votes - VHB Eivion Thanotos #9 71. Antonio Inoki – 1,121 points - 21 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Shozo the strong #5 72. Masahiro Chono – 1,034 points - 20 votes - VHB Eivion Thanotos #20 73. Lioness Asuka – 1,029 points – 20 votes – VHB FLIK #11 74. El Samurai – 1,020 points - 24 votes – VHB roro ur boat #27 75. Ricky Morton – 1,018 points - 20 votes - VHB Loss #19 76. Bob Backlund – 1,010 points – 21 votes – VHB Goodhelmet #19 77. Shiro Koshinaka - 957 points - 18 votes - VHB Theseus #14 78. Adrian Adonis - 938 points - 19 votes - VHB Ohtani’s Jacket #22 79. Dump Matsumoto – 852 points – 17 votes – VHB Owen #15 80. Kurt Angle - 817 points - 21 votes - VHB AoA #23 81. Marc Rocco - 813 points - 18 votes - VHB Famous Mortimer #16 82. Lou Thesz - 811 points - 12 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 4 top 10 votes - VHB Benoitsmark #4 83. Great Sasuke – 801 points – 19 votes – VHB Warriorfan #23 84. Chris Jericho – 798 points – 22 votes – VHB AoA #24 85. Rick Rude – 794 points – 19 votes – VHB Andrew D Lacelle #26 86. Hulk Hogan – 780 points – 15 votes – VHB SE Williams #13 87. TAKA Michinoku - 743 points - 19 votes - VHB Eivion Thanotos #18 88. Brian Pillman – 737 points – 18 votes – VHB Andrew D Lacelle #23 89. Satanico - 735 points - 12 votes – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Bix #9 90. Dean Malenko – 716 points – 22 votes – VHB Andrew D Lacelle, Shozo the strong #25 91. Toshiyo Yamada - 699 points - 13 votes - VHB greenman #14 92. Psicosis - 682 points - 19 votes - VHB AoA #25 93. Tommy Rogers – 656 points – 17 votes – VHB Dylan Waco #35 94. Atlantis – 621 points – 12 votes – VHB Insane Clown #16 95. Dan Kroffatt – 619 points – 15 votes – VHB ElPatoume #26 96. Rick Martel – 598 points – 14 votes – VHB Andrew D Lacelle #32 97. Naoki Sano – 579 points – 14 votes – VHB Wild Pegasus #13 98. Dick Togo - 575 points - 19 votes - VHB Mr Dragon #38 99. Sgt Slaughter – 550 points – 14 votes – VHB Benoitsmark #32 100. Riki Choshu - 516 points - 13 votes - VHB Warriorfan #28 What say you?

While we're talking about Flair's final placement, I thought this was a good moment to bump Bock here. Here was his 2006 finish: Nick Bockwinkel 1,451 points - 24 votes - VHB SE Williams #11 I can't imagine the high vote on him will be an #11 here. He's in my top 10 for sure.

Another guy who I've not seen hardly any bat "against" is Terry Funk, although Will did once tell me he's got him at 24, and not someone he sees as top tier, which I imagine to be the low vote. Bigger than Benoit, Eddie, Harley Race, Bret, Dynamite? I'd be surprised. Maybe I'm reading too much into that 80s poll, but him having 0 votes seemed quite ominous. We'll see. Benoit, DK and Race for sure will drop like stones. Harley probably much too unfairly, but then his 2006 placement was absurdly high too. Not many seem to feel the Jumbo love, and when there's an absense of that positive feeling, I wonder how low he could drop. I think "positive feeling" goes a long way. I also think Bret and Eddie will quietly have their fans. The Canadians will find ways to slip Bret into their top 10. And I see Eddie being big with the more modern crowd.

There is some epic cross-posting and mind-melding going on here

I mean, honestly, I think the big casuality from the 2006 list will be Jumbo. That's what all the early indications suggest. If I was a bookmaker, I'd probably make Stan Hansen the favourite for #1 because, apart from Matt, there hasn't really be anyone who has batted against him.

Also, I think for ANYONE who listened to that Flair vs. Lawler vs. Funk debate Dylan and Dave did with Loss and Will a few years back, the idea of those three as GOAT candidates is permanently ingrained in the imagination. At least it has been for me. (Although I think it probably did more for Funk and Lawler than for Flair, who I think probably is always already de facto in that discussion).

I don't want to start this insanely circular and terrible argument again, but didn't Flair finish 7th in the 2006 SC poll? Do you really feel as though he will climb multiple spots? If anything, we don't really have any new jaw dropping footage and his work after 06 was actively bad. I think it's reasonable to assume he might fall slightly, although he still seems like a lock for the top 10. Nah, Flair was still on TV in 2006 and him not retiring was one of those perrenial smark axes to grind. Also, the DVDR 80s projects happened in those 10 years which reminded everyone who took part in them why Flair was so highly thought of in the first place. I think many of us -- here on PWO -- sat down and watched and re-watched more footage than happened in 2006. And with that footage watching, as Will says, the cream will rise. And Flair has consistently been in highly ranked matches from basically every set. In addition, you've had people like Chad and I go through a re-assess basically all his greatest hits from the 1980s. And well, y'know, more than 1,000 people -- and more importantly voters in this poll -- listen to that show whenever it comes out. Loss has also put out numerous shows about Flair over the past few years. Zellner and Bix are high on him (to my knowledge) and their show also has a good following. Even though some of the names are the same, this crowd is different from the SC crowd. I mean, we'll see, but I don't see him finishing below the 2006 placement.

If Fuji's peak had been in the mid-late 80s or even in the 90s, rather than in the less-watched 70s / early-80s period, I think he might have more advocates. I imagine it does look really absurd to some people that I think he's someone to consider, but he is the stand-out performer on many a card. I will put him through and see what his numbers are, but if I was more the type to make statements with my list Fuji would probably be on there.

I think you must have been a super-early downloader Timothy! There's probably no intro or outro music either cos I uploaded the raws by mistake and then re-upped it. Hold onto that limited-edition version of WTBBP #80, could be a collector's item one day!

I'm wondering how much of that idea comes from their stuff with the Briscos? Jack worked from underneath a lot, I can see him giving a lot to a guy with big offense like Adonis.

I was wrong, there IS footage of the first title win! I'm glad that set has found its way online, it was one of the things I lost when I lost my hard disc.

Agree that we should get off this or split off. But one thing it's easy to forget about when looking at the tours is that Dory controlled the bookings and who he got in sometimes depended on where he was working during his US stints. Look at this. Flair worked Dory in St. Louis in Jan of 78: 01/27 St. Louis, MO Ric Flair beat Dory Funk, Jr.(21:01) And look at that, he's on the next tour in April. Do you think Japanese people just happen to love Texans or was it that Dory had a lot of friends and connections in Texas who got nice pay days for from Baba?

Also, Jingus, where does this assumption that things like vocal selling or stooging wouldn't get over with the Japanese crowd come from? Have you ever watched The Destroyer?

Each case has specific things around it. Dory I wouldn't say reaches "legendary" status until long after his reign is over, his work from 75-9 is what cemented his legacy. Yes, defences against Baba, Inoki and Brisco are part of the story, but imagine he'd never gone back on the tours after 73 and I don't think you have the legend so much. Terry is the same story really too, it's the feuds the Funks had that made them huge stars, not the title defences -- although they undoubtedly helped. Race had been going on the tours from 73, if not earlier. He never strikes me as being hugely over in his title defences but he definitely worked Japan more before and after the reign. Brisco also didn't seem particularly over, he worked as a de facto heel against Baba. His amateur credentials were surely talked up, as was the case wherever he worked. He also has a few post-title tag runs with Jerry, I believe but they are making up the numbers. Flair, as we know, didn't particularly like working Japan and for whatever reason didn't like working with Jumbo much and preferred Tenryu or Fujinani as opponents. He's mostly professional in his Japan appearances; a bit toned down and more low key. He does carry himself as a champion -- in my view -- better than the previous four champions. But the fact he never has a sustained run outside of title defences may affect how fans remember him. It's possible. My point only is that in terms of crowd reaction during title defences there is no real difference in how they treated any of the champions. They were coming in mostly against Inoki, Baba or Jumbo and the crowd are obviously gonna root for their own aces. The title was over and therefore all the champs had to do is get the idea of themselves as the man to beat over. Tis why Dory never needed charisma he was perfect in the role. I'm simply not buying this idea that the crowd didn't accept Flair in the role. I mean they had him back enough times. Also, he seemed plenty over in that 92 match with Tenryu.

I think Angle's case is pretty weak tbh.

I wouldn't say he's looked good in EVERYTHING I've seen of him, but I've seen more good than bad. I feel like the people on message boards who hate on Mascaras the most have probably seen very little actual footage of him. I haven't yet decided if Mil "counts" as a Lucha guy or not but I think he has a chance of making my list, Three things: 1. Better in the 70s rather than the 80s 2. One reason people, including me, hate him is because he never put anyone over and sometimes won't sell or take moves. 3. He might make my list because of his variety of memorable matches over the years.

Stuff from garbage tapes circa 1978 is quite a good look at pre-champ Ric

I've watched pretty much all the title defences in question from Dory to Flair and I don't think Ric was more or less over than any of the previous champs in Japan. I really don't agree with you on this point. Jdw is right that "it was the title", but I don't see how Flair paled next to previous champs. Also: Brisco and Terry were both emotional performers in Japan. Terry would yell when selling and was a showman even in 1970s, Brisco worked 85% from underneath and did his share of subtle stooging on occasion. Can we not make things up please. The crowds were always quieter for longer title matches than they were for raucous brawls. I can honestly say this argument is a total waste of time.

And just to overkill the point Question1: What coast would you say this is? Question 2: What show notoriously had the entire crowd chanting "We Want Flair" for its entire duration and where was that show held? Question 3: Who was headlining JCP cards in 1985 and 1986 when they were routlinely selling out the Philadephia Civic Arena? Question 4: Which coast is Philadelphia on? What are you smoking this morning OJ?