JerryvonKramer

I thought the former. But I'm sure everyone would love to know both answers

I'm very close to just drawing a line and saying I just won't rate or rank any Lucha guys. A bit like how some people only vote in certain categories in WON HoF. I'm not qualified to. One thing I'd ask though -- I guess of Grimmas or Dylan, whoever is collating final ballots -- is if the analytics could maybe drill down to produce some different 100s. As in: - for people who voted US only - for people who voted US and Japanese - for people who voted Lucha and Japanese - for people who voted Joshi, Lucha and Shoot style etc. Etc. I don't know if those analytics would be too hard to come up with or too hard to sort, but I think it would be some interesting granular detail and will serve to off-set those people who are only really voting in one or two categories. Don't know how you'd do it, but just a thought. Maybe a check box at the top of the ballot of styles each votee is representing in their list? Just think it would be cool to see like "of those people who voted for Lucha guys, Satanico finished #3" or whatever. Hope others can see value in that proposal too.

Okay, so here's the deal, there's no fucking way I'm sitting through all those trios matches on the Lucha set, but I don't want to sleep on it completely, so I'm pulling a Steven Graham and bee-lining to the top 20. Sickens me to have to do this and skip on the sprouts, but I think it's this or nothing at this stage. Will start and 20 and go down. Texas will probably get the same deal. I've already reviewed the twenty match, that was the 9/30/83 trios match I gave ***1/2 to. #19. Sangre Chicana vs. Satanico (5/26/89) After some early exchanges featuring some sweet little punched from Chicana we settle into an arm bar and for reasons I don't entirely understand the ref raises his arm. What the fuck? He submitted to an arm bar? Looking at it again, I guess the damage came from the stomach breaker and it was more of an abdominal stretch type move on the floor. I'll never get used to these sudden first falls. Chicana starts swinging wildly to ward off Satanico's punches. Fair play, Satanico throws a nice punch. Oh what happened? Fucking hell, pause, rewind. That was another fall! Satanic with a hard slam and some sort of leglock to even things up at 1-1. Why do they even bother with the first two falls? Always like that they are, just sudden. About ten minutes gone. I don't think I'll ever psychologically readjust to accept two falls inside of ten minutes. Like these guys are nowhere near being down and out, so why do they take the falls? It's a nonsense to me. Just make the thing one fall. One thing I do like in this match is the fierceness with which both guys snap down on a snapmare or basic bodyslam. They go into the crowd and brawl. It's fair to say that both men can throw a punch. Things seem to grind to a halt a bit as they are in the crowd. Double count out. There we are then. I didn't see a lot here to make me excited. This has Will and Schneider written all over it, being a punch fest, and sure enough they did love it, or at least Phil did. In the interests of balance. I will also link Graham Crackers's eulogy to it in which he calls it one of the best matches of 1989. http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/21127-disc-8/?p=5573427 It didn't do a lot for me. If I'm honest I prefer a lot of the bloodier and more violent and more wild Abby-Terry Funk brawls from 1980 that our friend uploaded, and they capped out about ***1\2, they all finished in double count outs too. Falls just too sudden in the first half, and I did not see the beauty in the finish that G. Crackers did. Not really one for me this. I have to be honest with my ratings. I'm a man wandering around a modern art gallery who doesn't understand what he's looking at most of the time. **1/2 #18 was Cota vs. Rocca (2/3/84), a match I dug and gave **** to. #17 Solar, Ultraman and Super Astro vs. Sergio El Hersmo, Belo Greco and Rudy Reyna (2/26/84) This is the match I tapped out on when I originally stopped watching the Lucha set. A lot of comedy stuff early on. Lost in translation. Actually, fuck this, these guys aren't in consideration for GWE and are responsible for me stopping the set dead in my tracks last time. Let's move on. It's a legendary match apparently. Maybe another day. Sorry OJ. #16. was Atlantis vs. Satanico (1984), which I gave **** to. My buddy Chad gave that one the full *****. I have little memory of it to be honest. #15. MS-1 and Maskare vs. El Dandy and El Satanico (8/11/89) Heels look pretty swank in their matching gear. Dandy has a shaved head here. First fall, as ever, comes before I've had a chance to think. Ridiculous double team spot for a submission. Second fall has a pretty impressive splash from the top rope by MS-1 a long way across the ring on Dandy. I find it hard to get into the rhythm of these sub-20-minute 2/3 falls matches. The falls make the action feel so ephemeral. Some sick vampire action now as Dandy holds one of the Rudos for Satanico quite literally to bite at him and suck his blood. Total Will spot. Dandy goes on to kick the other one in the face, pretty sloppy kick. Satanico beats on MS-1 who is a mess by this point. But then the Rudos start coming back until Maskare kicks Dandy clean in the nuts. Ref doesn't see. But then they hold Satanico to go for the same but he evades for Maskare to get the low blow himself. Oh maybe the ref did see cause it looks like a DQ finish. Eh, this ain't my scene guys. I did like the payback and beating on MS-1 by Satanico, but these 18-minute 2/3 falls matches are too short and disruptive for my tempo. It's not even about adjusting a mindset, I just fundamentally don't like the structure. It'd be like someone who can't get into Southern tags trying to get into the Rock n Rolls. *** That'll do it for now, I've watched a lot of wrestling today. Very close to the point of just saying I won't rank any Lucha guys. Does mean I'll lose Cota and Casas, but it just feels plain unfair at this point. I have no real way of rating them with any semblance of discernment and I'd rather not be some sort of critical thug. Some guys aren't going to have any Japanese workers at all, so I think I could justify doing the same with these. Will give it one more session maybe. I've tried and tried and I don't want any more beef from the One Man Punch crew.

Best set ever ever for that

I don't understand that as an argument. It's like saying Alam Shearer scored 260 Premier Leauge goals and then saying "yeah but how many other strikers were playing at the top flight for so long and had so many goal scoring opportunities?" That's basically a nonsense argument. Besides, all of the guys listed had a lot of chances with many different guys to have good matches. Jumbo faced every NWA champion. I've seen Fujinami against a lot of different opponents and I'm only in 1984. Stan Hansen worked Backlund, Martel, Slaughter, Colon, and anyone who was anyone in AJPW. Lawler faced any heel who came through Memphis. It's weak Grimmas.

Mid-South 4.8 Rock N Roll Express vs. Ted DiBiase & Dr. Death (6/19/85) I wish Ted wouldn't have kept shaving his beard off in the mid-80s. So much cooler with the beard. He goes to work on Morton here. I maintain that DiBiase has become a severely underrated worker by some, just so good at everything he does on offense, bumping, selling, timing, feeding. I see him being dismissed very lightly for reasons I'm not entirely sure of. For me he's one of the world class workers of his day, but then you all knew that. But certainly I don't see why -- as an example -- his partner here, Williams would ever make someone's list over him. I also think see a guy like Morton, for as good as he was at what he did, routinely put over Ted, and I don't see how DiBiase wasn't a better a all round worker factoring in everything. Morton was a specialist, great at one thing. Anyway, just saying my bit. Everyone knows I think Ted was fantastic. Some guys have a hard on for shoot style workers, some for Luchadores, some for trash workers. Well my hard on for top 80s US heels who were consummate pros will always be permanent. This wrestling here is my first love. I've told you my truth, tell me yours. Morton has a flurry but finds himself cornered. Doc in. But Gibson and Morton rally and the heels bail. Doc levels Gibson with an elbow. Ted in. Elbow smash. Patent end first drop. Snap mare. Reverse chin lock. Gibson elbows out, just a hope spot. Knee lift by Ted. Doc in. Elbow drop. Doc controls with a headlock. Joel Watts is that on commentary? Whoever it is, he is on fucking speed here. Calm down son. Ted loads the glove and nails Gibson. Morton rallies for a pin. But the ref is out. Doc adjusts the arm brace and nails the clothesline for the win. Not as hot as the last encounter between these two, but still fun, *** Mid-South 4.9 Rock N Roll Express vs. Terry Gordy & Buddy Roberts (6/24/85) Freebirds in Mid-South here. Hayes is there, of course. Watts never liked letting him wrestle. Roberts is getting old here. Still Rock n Rolls vs. Freebirds, two big teams of the 80s. Looks like Gibson is on FIP duty tonight as Gordy gives him two big back suplexes. Buddy in. Jaw breaker. Elbow. Headbutt. Morton in to agitate. Gibson gets the tag. Big bump by Roberts into the corner. Another big dramatic bump. You can see why they always said he was the worker of the group. He's definitely the one I've seen least of. That's my lack of WCCW watching. Did see him in the GCW run though. Gordy drops Morton on the top rope. Now he throws him over the top rope. Gibson goes over to protect him from the lurking Hayes. Top rope scraping by Roberts. Sunset flip by Morton. Big slam by Gordy. Ouch, what was that an inverted tombstone by Gordy?! Damn near broke Gibson's neck. That'll do. Not a classic, but a good solid old-fashioned southern tag, and there's nothing wrong with that. Seems like *** is almost like an R n R baseline against competent opponents. *** Mid-South 4.10 Rock N Roll Express vs. Jake Roberts & The Barbarian (6/28/85) We're getting a very good look at the R n Rs here and a very good look also at Watts's rogues gallery at this time. This is in Houston. Barbarian is John Nord aka The Berzerker, not the Face of Fear. Boesch puts Jake over as a wily veteran and calls him "slithering". Makes me wonder how experienced Jake was at this time. Peewee Anderson looks ridiculously weedy here. What a little shrimp! We settle into an FIP sequence on Morton. Well, come on, what else? Jake works a hammerlock. Oh no, not a FIP ... Gibson in. Works a side headlock. This one seems like it might be going for a while if they are working holds early. This is being worked in a very very undercard-y way. Shades of Jose Luis Rivera here. And with all the excitement. Jake has been real dullsville so far. He's responsible for one of the worst matches I've ever seen (vs Rude, WM4), he owes me a good performance at some point I feel. Gorilla press by Barbarian on Morton. This one has lost me. Because the R n Rs work their formula so rigidly, and never deviate outside of that, it's really up to the heels to be dynamic and interesting delivering the offense. Morton can bump around as much as he can, but he can't create magic if the opponents aren't up to the task of doing cool shit to him. And I have to say I didn't think Jake or Nord were up to it here. After seeing them vs. Ted and Doc, Freebirds, DWB, they were a distant and pale fourth. If you're interested: 1. DiBiase and Doc 2. Freebirds 3. Dirty White Boys 4. Jake and Barbarian In that order. This one also went way way too long for what it was. *1/2

Did Rick McGraw ever work squashes as the guy doing the squashing? He was a nasty little fuck, but usually as the lower card guy getting beaten. I don't think I've ever seen a McGraw squash but I imagine he'd be brutal.

I need to see more to do BIGLAV, but I'd agree definitely that his base rating would be higher than Flair's. I have Flair as an 8, Fujinami could do it all, and is a 9 possibly pushing 10 with a +1 for "explosiveness". I have Jumbo as a 10 too, but I know folks disagree with me on that.

An interesting question to ask would be: How many different guys had their best match with Flair? How many different guys had their best match with Fujinami? How many with Jumbo? And so on down the line. I think that's a metric that might help Lawler, but the quality bar on both those matches and those opponents probably lower.

YES! Exactly this. Who else could ever pull 3 (in my eyes) classics out of Terry Taylor? Still scratching my head how you found each of their 3 matches so different, quality-wise, but the point about Flair remains. The mileage they get out of that headlock in the third is just incredible. Still coming down from it, rare that I see a Flair classic I've not seen before. Last time I felt like this was seeing the 92 Tenryu match. I don't know why the other two didn't hit the spot like that one. But I do agree that I find it difficult to imagine Jumbo, Fujinami, Hansen, Lawler or even Bock pulling a match that good out of Taylor. I think Terry Funk probably could.

I should make it clear that I'm not dismissing Fujinami at all. He's consistently impressed me through four discs of 80s NJPW now. World class, certainly. I still haven't seen him have a match on the level of Jumbo vs. Tenryu or Jumbo vs. Flair or Jumbo vs. Kerry or any of the Jumbo / Choshu tags though, but then I have a lot of discs left. I'm just interested to have an idea what the case is for him. He should finish well for me, but I'm not yet seeing him in Jumbo / Flair bracket through to mid-84.

I had a spell of having Jumbo over Flair, but after watching that amazing match with Terry Taylor, I've flipped back to Flair now. I can't think of a single guy on earth who could get a performance as good as that out of Taylor.

Mid-South 4.4 Kerry Von Erich vs. Ric Flair (5/4/85) Won't go in detail on this one. The lack of commentary and intimate camera give this one a sense of grittiness that is pretty awesome. When I talk about authenticity, it's stuff like this. TNA in 2005 de facto at about a 10 to 1 disadvantage for that fact alone. The action here is crisp, these two had good chemistry, everything connects well. The crowd are into it. Kerry works really hard. And as a result Flair takes more of these matches than is sometimes the case -- again, it's not the formula big man match. Starts out a little slow with the typical NWA title match matwork. Kerry works the arm, then Flair controls until he gets a sleeper on. Transitions to leg and figure four. Kerry comeback and gets claw. That same finish they've been using with Flair getting the pin while Kerry had the foot on the rope. It's the definition of routine, but it was a good routine. *** Mid-South 4.5 Rock N Roll Express vs. Dirty White Boys (5/11/85) Good bit of stalling to start. Gibson gives both the Dirty White Boys a PM atomic drop. Denton takes over on Morton. Anthony in with a fist drop and stomps. Tags in and out. A lot of antagonising of Gibson and tying the ref up. We get a hot tag and the bell goes for ... Is it a DQ? Vaguely disappointed by this. I like to see a a moving through of the gears in the heat stretches, but the DWBs never really progressed past scrappy punching in their offense. I'm not a huge schtick guy, and there was a lot of it early on. This one was just a bit too rudimentary for me. Interested to know what Tim Cooke likes about it though. Maybe there's something I'm not seeing, wouldn't be the first time. **1/2 Mid-South 4.6 Dirty White Boys vs. Terry Daniels & Bill Dundee (5/11/85) Is this the same Terry Daniels of Slaughter's private fame? These arenas in Watts country are pretty cool. Dirty White Boy's tights are hideous. Bill Dundee's are too. Some ghastly attire on display. The face in peril section on Daniels in this match is much more crunchy and satisfying than the Rock n Rolls one. Slams have more impact. Great sense of the gears cranking up. Schtick better integrated into the match. When Dundee comes in, and among other things, atomic drops Denton on a chair. But then Anthony regains advantage again and they worked a second FIP sequence on Dundee. Dirty White Boy does have good character work, also has a neat little 360 rebounding back from the turnbuckle bump, sort of the reverse of Dibiase's trademark bump. Dundee gets sleeper in as a hope spot but Denton cuts him off. Denton is a big guy isn't he. I love this ring, it's so bangy and crashy. Enjoyable match. ***1/2 Mid-South 4.7 Terry Taylor vs. Ric Flair (6/1/85) Here we go again. And once again, this has length written all over it. Obligatory babyface armwork from Taylor to start. Headlock, headlock takeover. They are setting up for at least 30 here, I can tell. A lot of headlock. Flair suplexes Taylor but he doesn't let go. I can only imagine the laugh a minute a Taylor vs. Backlund match would be. More hot headlock action now. Fucking hell. Fifteen minutes gone. Don't tell me this goes an hour, please. Flair finally breaks free and gives Talyor one of his stiffest chops. And again. That one was from me! Thanks Ric. Jesus. Taylor comes back and Flair begs off. Another big chop. Taylor fights back. This is more like it! All of a sudden this match got good. Flair is pissed now. With every chop these guys are getting more and more heated. Now this is gonna sound strange but it almost makes the fifteen fucking minutes of headlock drudgery worth it because these chops feel earned -- there's those sprouts I talk about sometimes. It's not like your Low Ki or AJ Styles going in for the full chop fest within the first minute, this match has built to this point and now it's boiling over. Do kinda wish Taylor has done something other than a long ass headlock to fill the time, but you get the point. They were working through the sprouts, not just bee lining to the delights of the plate. I respect the Puritan work ethic. Oh Flair is flowing now. Jaws at the ref. Snap mare. Knee drop. Fuck yes. Grabs the arm. You can hear that smack on the skin. Uses the hair to sync him down -- there's your "little stuff" Flair dick heel move. All of a sudden this match got real good. Uses the ropes for leverage. Slyly grabs the tights. Jaws constantly. This is your dirtiest player in the game right here. Stops to shout at a fan. And now the chops again. This is awesome. Taylor is really fired up. Sleeper! Man Taylor is laying this shots in now. Suplex. Flair cries out in pain. I'll admit it, they've hooked me in here. Taylor goes for a splash and Flair gets the knees up. Four massive rights by Taylor sends Flair down. This has got to be the best performance of Taylor's career right here. Goes in for the Irish whip. Flair won't go. Sends him for the ride anyway. Flair flip over and to the outside. Options, remember. Flair guillotines Taylor on the top rope. Massive Flair chop! Back slide sequence into a two count. Crowd are wild. Flair goes for a pin with two legs on the ropes. Two only. Five big chops by Taylor. Back suplex by Flair. Figure four time. Taylor sells this so hard he's basically doing sit ups in it. Some nearfalls. Big chop sends Taylor down. But Taylor comes back with his own figure four. Flair has lost it now, we are seeing the psycho come out. The adrenaline forces him not to stay own, desperation forces him to go up top. Slammed off. Backs up. Flying crossbody by Taylor. Fair play he's worked so hard in this match. Flair dumps Taylor now. Big vertical suplex. And he's strutting. Elbow drop. Cover gets two. And again. And again. He shouts at the ref. Ha ha. Two big chops. He grabs Taylor by both cheeks as if to say "who the fuck do you think you are!" Another round of chop suey explodes now. Flair gets the pin with no small degree of desperation after 39 minutes of gruelling action. Massive "bull shit" chant from crowd. Ha ha ha. Absolutely phenomenal match that would make my top 100. The first ten minutes are boring, but once you work through them the pay off of everything else makes it so much worth it. Taylor's career match and just another night of greatness for the Nature Boy. Any fan who was in the crowd that night saw a match they'd remember for the rest of their life. Absolutely one to watch if you've not seen this one. Taylor works out of his skin and Flair basically drags him up to his level. It's the sort of thing the greatest wrestler of all time can do with an average opponent. ****3/4 Putting a pot of tea on to brew. Three R n R matches against different opponents when I return! Hyped.

I didn't put on anyone who didn't have a complete 80s from 80-89. Hence no Bock, no Funk, etc. Other is there for that reason.

It's payback for all the times I backchatted grandpa jdw

I have no dog in this fight. Just interested to know where people are. It's possible that whoever wins the 80s ends up as #1, possible but not a definite. I envision more fun polls as we inch towards end.

Surprised no one has mentioned the Steiners yet.

Listen, I've heard Dylan talk about it. I know what Childs thinks, it's In Your Face's views I was interested in. But since you've decided to be his white knight here, I guess we might never know. Please don't forget that this whole deal is about the discussion. If you haven't noticed, I've been watching Fujinmai in the 80s too. We watch footage, draw conclusions and talk about them. You should know there's no agendas here. A good few of us are friends on Facebook and often would have exactly the same discussion on there as would happen here. Only I guess there I don't have the One Man Punch to reckon with. Ho hum.

Alright, have it your way, let's not find out. Dum de dum.

How about piping down and letting the guy flesh out his case.

Has probably got to the point where he's a wee bit overrated.

This is a pretty strong assertion when Flair and Jumbo both exist and it shouldn't go unchecked without further elaboration, because the arguments are far from obvious or self-evident. Needs fleshing out.

Flair watching Rumble 92 is a real treat. Recommended for all the Nature Boy marks.

Well feel free to recommend. I think I have a good idea of what Styles in TNA circa 2005 was about.