JerryvonKramer

Just curious about this: do you hate all runs of DX equally viscerally, or is it one particular run that has made you loathe the group as a whole? Because while I can certainly see early 1998 heel DX being hated by people, I do not think they deserve this level of hatred. Or maybe they do. Been some time since I have revisited that era. Yes, all runs. Unspeakably embarrassing. Made my skin crawl then and even more now. It's the wrestling equivalent of David Brent from the Office.

He has a great matches with Jack Brisco (I gave ****) and Dory (I gave ***) too that some people really love. I find Inoki the most boring guy ever. So so so boring.

I don't get that match. Both guys have gone on record to say that Greg was blown up early which is why they stay in a headlock for 30 minutes. I mean here you have a 30-minute headlock, worked pretty boringly, with both guys saying "yeah, Greg was blown up" ... it's the definition of a rest hold. Why does the first half of that match have so many defenders? Inoki vs. Backlund is the definition of "boring" in my view. One of the most boring matches of all time.

There are guys -- see Ivan Koloff, Wahoo McDaniel, probably Jack Brisco -- who are absolutely being punished due to lack of material on my list. While we have enough of each of those guys to get a measure of how good their base stars were, it hurts them in the "great matches" and "variety" stakes. Imagine all the amazing brawls Ivan and Wahoo had in the 1970s that didn't make tape. Wahoo is a guy who might be a top 15 contender if we had his whole career. It's unavoidable to punish guys for lack of footage.

Try saying that after watching dozens of matches from the 70s, and you will lose that love for the Greco-Roman Knucklelock. I mean I've seen the sequence so many times now. Elbow and collar tieup into a Greco-Roman Knucklock, maybe it progresses into a backslide. Head lock. Head lock take over. Into a head scissors. YAWN. Let's get to the bit where they start doing moves already.

I'll say this, Ross and Ventura haven't been quite as bad as I remember on the shows we've been rewatching for WTBBP. It is probably Ventura's worst year as a commentator, but when you are the best colour guy of all time, that's still a pretty good year.

A lot of mysteries being resolved in this thread

I hate DX more than all of the other people on this board combined. Imagine Dylan's hatred for Triple H. Now square it. Now double it again. It's almost at the level for the amount I hate them. I probably even like Strongbow more ...

Steven mentioned not to watch too much cos he wants to do a show or something. But I will definitely watch all those you listed plus any Joshi listed in top 100s of Chad or Tim before deadline. Genuinely looking forward to it.

Not a joke nomination, Fuji is legit the MVP of many an MSG card. The guy had great and effective psychology, and -- in an place and era defined by very lazy workers -- stands out with his great stooging and bumping. He is not a guy who will be shooting for any top 50 spots, but he is someone worth considering. He's a guy who has risen and risen in my estimation the more I've seen of him. I'd easily have him above Tony Garea, for example, who is his contemporary in almost every way. Fuji / Saito will do very well on my tag list.

My priorities from here are: 1. Watch every single match I haven't seen from the Top 100s of Chad, Tim and Steven. Minus La Parka brawls, because fuck that. 90s New Japan is top priority. Plus whatever highend Joshi is there. 2. Finish DVDR 80s NJPW, Mid-South, Memphis. Plus Texas set top 40. This is a tall order. 3. Watch Best of Onita set that I have. Plus follow ups of any "workers of interest". 4. Watch as much Regal set as I can. Plus follow ups of any "workers of interest". 5. Watch as much 90s Terry Funk from that set as I can. Plus follow ups of any "workers of interest". 6. WoS roundup. 7. Complete Biglav ratings. 8. Reveal Top 100 on WTBBP. ----- It is unlikely that I will get through all of that, but I'm going to try. There are some people I do not feel comfortable giving ratings to, who at this stage will not make my list.

Just to say that Clash 1 Luger / Windham vs. Arn / Tully tag was 48 in my top 100, and I seem to recall it had a similar sort of placement on Tim L's recent list. I also think that DiBiase vs. Duggan might even be a shorter match, so I don't think length is necessarily a criterion for classic status. Pretty sure Steven put that 4-minute Bock vs. Zbyszko match on his, and that might be pushing it. I kinda like his list. Apart from the presence of the Taker vs. HBK WM25 (which I'm in the minority on). I also maintain that Brock vs. Roman from WM2015 is better than the Rumble triple threat in basically every way (which I think I'm also in the minority on).

I am open to doing later cards, but we must be careful. Copywright is the key thing. We can't cover anything too high profile. WWE have made claims against the videos already (notably not for the whole thing, just against title matches and Andre-Studd specifically, which in itself is fascinating), but seem to be willing to let them stay up as long as they retain any profit to be made from ad revenue (ha ha, enjoy your millions Vince!). This is fine with me. However, I am pretty sure if we did something like a Wrestlemania, it would be yanked down almost immediately. We need stick with stuff on the fringes. Like maybe an obscure Boston card, or a Philly show. Maybe an old CHV. Stuff that is not in the typical WWE purview.

Great read. I do hope the deficencies of the modern scene doesn't dull your passion for all wrestling. Easily one of the most passionate people about pro wrestling on this board, and given some of the people who frequent this place, that's something.

Approaching the top 3 but drinking game for those yet to start: take a drink every time Tim says "so so good".

Marty, if I was laying out matches, you'd never see another test of strength spot ever again.

Sleaze: listening to the latest Tag Teams Back Again, and I think you might have had this thread in mind. I wasn't attacking shine sequences, but babyface control sequences later in the match, which you'd typically see in a longer match. See above for more. I was asking a question:

Finally finished this beast and I'd recommend that everybody check it out. Can tell that a lot of time, effort and thought went into it. I was pleased that Tim went with older matches in the main, because going in I had some concerns that this would be too modern-centric to be of any interest to me, but that wasn't the case at all from either guy. Top priority for me now is going through Tim's and Steven's (and Chad's) picks that I haven't seen -- especially the New Japan ones. And I'm looking forward to that. Also, don't want to spoil too much but Sasha / Becky over Dream Rush tag is madness.

There was a shot taken at me on this show, specifically as regards how a professional academic could use "selective evidence" when trying to prove or disprove a theory. Let's talk about the demands of empirical evidence. If there are a 100 primary sources pointing in one direction, and one source pointing in another one, the existence of the outlier doesn't prove anything, it's just an outlier. We have matches showing that Pedro worked from underneath and that Bruno gave a lot more to his opponents and generated a lot more sympathy during heat sequences by showing real vulnerability than Bob did. And this was in New York under the same office that presumably gave the direction for Bob to gobble up and dominanate every challenger. If you are talking about what the evidence says and which conclusions to draw, if we are to buy its something that came from Vince Sr. then it raises a further question: why did he give this direction to Bob but not to previous champions? Hogan also worked from underneath in a lot of matches. So out of four babyface champs in the babyface territory, three of them didn't work like Bob. It's more reasonable to ascertain that it's how Bob preferred to work. The office can keep a guy strong just by booking him to win pretty much every match. How he wins is a different matter. I'll also say this, whether the ultimate person to blame is Bob or Vince Sr, "heel comeback" remains ass backwards psychology, and I'll continue to criticise those matches for it.

This was an ironic list right?

The reason he has 2/3 rather than 3/3 for selling for me is because of how he sells pain when he's in holds, and his apparent inability to do long-term selling. You can be the best bumper in the world, but still not max out in selling because of that. It's ironic that Angle was frequently compared to Jack Brisco, because he might just be the top trump for selling pain in a hold.

Angle is probably the best test case for: 1. Raw talent vs. output 2. Mechanics vs. psychology

My mistake. That lowers his score further. Angle is probably not making the 100. For some reason I thought the IC / Euro champion runs were 98-99. Faulty memory.

Kurt Angle Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 0/3 = 5 Intangibles 4 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 00-05= 5 years = 3 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWF, TNA, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 3 1. Shane McMahon, 2. Steven Austin, 3. Chis Jericho, 4. Chris Benoit, 5. Brock Lesnar, 6. Eddie Guerrero, 7. Rey Mysterio, 8. Undertaker, 9. AJ Styles Variety = 9 opponents = 4 22

Shawn Michaels Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 2/3 = 6 Intangibles 6 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 86-97= 11 years = 7 +1 ability to work face +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (AWA, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 1. Rose / Sumers, 2. , Orient Express, 3. Powers of Pain, 4. Brainbusters, 5. Ted DiBiase, 6. Rick Martel, 7. Bret Hart, 8. Razor Ramon, 9. Owen Hart, 10. The Undertaker, 11. Steve Austin, 12. Mankind, 13. Chris Jericho, 14. Kurt Angle, 15. Ric Flair, 16. Randy Orton, 17. John Cena, 18. Diesel Variety = 18 opponents = 9 38 I hate Shawn Michaels.