JerryvonKramer

You seem very antagonistic these days GOTNW. In what ways do Jumbo's performances in the Choshu tags differ from Baba's in tags in the 1970s or Misawa's in tags in the 1990s? My view is that they are all of a piece.

1985-1992 doesn't really feel like a complete run for Jumbo since he is a completely different wrestler in 1985 than he is in 1992. I don't have time to back it up with a bunch of reviews and a huge list right now but I'm pretty sure Jumbo took a big leap in 1988 and would have 1989-1992 as his true "peak". It's almost ridiculous how little presence he has in the Choshu tags compared to the Misawa feud. This is actually not a fair criticism, in my view, because All Japan aces always seem to take the back seat in tags. Misawa has little presence in many of the famous 90s tags I've watched and very often his partner, whether it is Kawada, Kobashi or Akiyama is given more time in the ring. Similarly, in the 1970s, Baba takes a backseat to Jumbo in so many of the tags. This is just how those tags were structured and it comes down to that hierarchy thing that is so frequently praised in AJ.

I'll agree that my viewing of those guys is far from comprehensive, but whenever I have watched random matches from them "off piece" as it were, outside of the classics, Kawada has disappointed me more often than the other two. I could count examples on at least two hands, which in my mind is quite a lot.

Relevant reading: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/32340-the-superstar-image-today-vs-yesterday/?p=5708181

It took us over two years to get the time of Titans down to 2 hours as opposed to 3 hours. That's a 4-man show with the same crew every time watching 30+ year old footage that no one gives a shit about. Will has a rotating crew of 4+ watching something that has just happened that everyone has a view on. In many ways, it is the toughest hosting gig of any show. He has every sympathy from me and I don't know who else would be able to keep things moving like he does.

That Cap Centre card is currently the worst card I've ever seen. Worse than Bunkhouse Stampede 88, Heroes of Wrestling or any WWE show of the past 15 years. If there's a worse card, if the WWF ever ran a C-crew card circa 94-95, I imagine it would be in there. The one Pete has pointed at does look putrid.

@ DR Ackerman: I was just wondering about the phrase "output" because for raw great matches etc., I'm not sure if Misawa has an equal and probably has more ****1/2+ to his name than even Jumbo or Flair. On my own scale, he's a perfect 10 for great matches, but gets hurt in variety and longevity stakes. I hadn't really seen anyone put forward a case that Misawa has less output than the other two. It's usually more that people don't get his character work and find it easier to connect with Kawada / Kobashi. So the output thing interested me. I'm in the camp that does see Kawada's Footloose run as a plus for him, but I've been a bit disappointed with his post-peak work. He was the worst of Hase's opponents when I saw him run the AJ gauntlet a month ago and have seen Kawada dog it far too many times. I also feel like Jumbo's "boring" period from 81-84 is generally held against him far more than down periods for other guys, while his 70s work isn't taken into account as much and generally phenomenal 85-92 a little lightly dismissed.

??? This Japan thread has been one of the more surprising to me since this whole GWE deal started.

Can't we just put this more serious talk to bed and just marvel at pics of Sexy Lexy etc?

Poor unloved Jumbo

There's your test to see if Bock really was a super worker, Matt!

Also, off-topic, but a great book for that sort of thing, specifically in terms of how the aftermath of WW2 has been presented, is Tony Judt's Postwar: A History of Europe Since 1945. Might be a good follow-up to the one Jingus mentions.

Okay. I'd go along with that probably. On your wider point on adaptations of history ... what about times when the fiction account is more compelling than the actual history? One might think of Shakespeare's Richard III, or indeed of any of Shakespeare's plays based on historical events, and they give us works of literature that are powerful in their own right. That might get at "truths" important to us as human beings, but which have nothing to do with the real people they depict. Strikes me as a bit myopic, not to mention trivial, to dismiss Shakespeare on the grounds that he got a few details wrong a long the way. And he definitely did. For example, he treats Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March and his grandson the 5th Earl of March as the same person. Doesn't stop Henry IV Parts 1 and 2 being masterpieces.

Jingus, on "genuine history", I'd consider reading Hayden White's Metahistory. You seem to be assuming some positivist notion of a stable truth for history, and this surprises me given how heavily you lean on subjectivity elsewhere. History is as subjective as any other branch of the humanities. There is no objective history. As evidence on this very board, I'd point to the infamous debate between myself and jdw in which he point-blank refused to accept the wider economy or oil as a contributing factor to the decline of Mid-South despite a lot of primary sources pointing to that as a factor. In jdw's version of that history, the decline was only caused by booking and fans turning from the product. In my version, there were multiple factors, including those outside of Watts's control. Who can say whose was the one true version? That is why history is not straightforwardly objective.

Not necessarily in terms of being jacked ... Was it Lex Luger in WCW around the mid-90s when Schiavone would tout him as having 3% body fat? Or Was it Ricky Steamboat in the late 70s around the time Flair says he was living on nothing but tuna and chicken breasts? Or someone else?

In fairness, I've listened to it now and yeah that's true.

Why can't it be Ziggler?

This is probably the most fun one yet.

Watched them both, I think. One of them almost actually turned me to stone it was so dull.

Which Japanese wrestler will you rank highest? Jumbo Which Japanese wrestlers do you expect to make your list? Jumbo, Baba, Tenryu, Choshu, Yatsu, Fujinami, Misawa, Kawada, Taue, Kobashi, Hashimoto, Liger, Muta, Hase, Fuchi, Saito (if he counts as Japanese), Onita Probably: Akiyama, Kickuchi Who was the best of the 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s, 2010s to come out of Japan? 70s: Jumbo 80s: Jumbo 90s: Misawa 00s: Probably Kobashi from what I've seen 10s: no Who was your favorite Ace? Jumbo Who was your favorite top challenger? Kawada? Who was your favorite under the radar guy? Taue Who was the best at their peak? Jumbo Who has disappointed you the most? Maeda (boring), shoot style in general, not for me

Any particular reason that Jumbo isn't an automatic like the others? Just seems weird to me that he seems no longer to be thought about in that top tier.

Well, there you go, the fans are on your side Johnny! Don't change bud.

My point was that -- and I say this as someone who has co-hosted over 60 shows with Johnny -- is that he's a lot more critical of shows from the 1980s than he is here. Even of shows from the peak of the Crockett era. In Johnny's version of events, the WWE are on a monster run, one of the best of all time, with every show as great as the last. And I'm sorry, but I don't think that even he would take the last year of shows over, let's say, 1986-7 Crockett. He'll be plenty critical of Dusty's booking looking back but still seems blind to the obvious flaws in the current product. I'm not saying he needs to sing from the same hymn sheet as everyone else -- I mean, he's Johnny, he'll be unique no matter what his position -- I'm just wondering about the disparity between Johnny the 80s fan, who I've done lots of shows with and who is able to be critical, and Johnny the 2010s fan, who is all sunshine and rainbows all the time. Something doesn't make sense.

Here's some figures from August 2015, from just a cursory search: 1 – Cena "15x" shirt 2 – Balor "Balor Club" shirt 3 – Rollins "Never Shuts Up" shirt 4 – Lesnar "Suplex City: Brooklyn" shirt 5 – Bryan "Yes Revolution" shirt (on sale 7.99) 6 – Lesnar "Suplex City: Minneapolis" shirt 7 – Cesaro "The Professional" shirt 8 – Reigns "Hit Hard, Hit Often" shirt 9 – Owens "KO" shirt 10 – Liger "Thunder" shirt Those were the biggest selling items at that time. What does it say? You tell me. You have said merch is an important indicator.

I'm just saying that the sales of his merch might have more to do with the fact that it is vaguely "on trend" as opposed to anything to do with Reigns being over. It's a far cry from being a Hulkamaniac loud and proud. They aren't really saying "I'm a Roman Reigns fan". Nothing quite says "I'm a Reigns mark" like wearing his sub-metal iconography.