JerryvonKramer

[might be an idea to split all this Lucha talk off into its own thread, because it will be buried here in my reviews and likewise the reviews themselves will be buried by this discussion, which I think has been intersting]

Right but this argument is the exact opposite one from leaving all my preconceived notions about wrestling at the door. Here you are saying "hey it's not so different from the wrestling you know". I'm a little confused by the progression of these posts.

One more question I have about this is: in practice, how would that work? Like, I have preconceived notions, for example, about an effective wrestling match being able to engage the crowd and create heat. Should I leave this at the door? The more I look at this comment, the more I don't really know what it means. Which notions exactly does someone need to divest themselves of before they watch Lucha as opposed to wrestling from the US or Japan (or elsewhere)?

Would you agree that that's pretty hard after 20+ years of fandom? Serious question. I mean in general, I'd say a style that requires you to re-learn the rules of the genre from the ground up, or demands you to "forget what you know" about wrestling, is pretty challenging. So perhaps what you're saying is easier said than done.

ok, this is where you're way off i'd say. awareness is a tradition, yes, but it's not a positive kind. the donald trump campaign is evidence, but it goes way back - a huge reason marijuana was so heavily demonized here was because it was The Mexican Drug. "Mexican" here brings up associations with poverty, drugs, laziness/incompetence, etc. that's a largely US-centric point, but that makes up a pretty freakin large portion of the fanbase so hey! ~ Well yeah granted, that's the other side of the coin. And I'm much more likely to speak to Americans (and let's be clear that's mostly guys here, on my podcasts, students, not generally bigots) who aren't going to be peddling that sort of line. But because you have those negative stereotypes there, it may also play into where some of that defensiveness regarding Lucha (that I perceive) is coming from -- like a wider sensivitt about Mexicans in general. Like when that guy said I was making racially-based critiques, it made zero sense to me (and I hope it's obvious that it makes no difference to me where the wrestling is actually taking place), but if you look at it through the sort of lens you've just outlined, you can see that that charge of racial / cultural insensitivity is never that far away when it comes to Americans discussing something Mexican. (Hope that made sense) Obviously for those of us in the UK, we don't tend to think about any of this stuff. Or at least I don't. A Mexican guy, a Spanish guy, a Danish guy, a Canadian guy, an Austrian, a Chinese guy ... Makes no real difference I don't think, especially in and around London where that could legitimately be the makeup of your office. By which I mean to say, I don't think Mexico has any particular associations here beyond tacos, sombreros, the Aztecs etc. Literally "just another country".

I dunno. To my mind, I think Americans tend to be almost hyper aware of, sensitive to (and respectful of) Mexico as a different culture. I think that comes down to bordering the country and knowing more Mexican people. Over here, Mexico is "just another country". I probably think of football first (86 World Cup especially), then maybe the food, then maybe Speedy Gonzalez etc. Honestly, if I made a list of Mexican associations, I reckon Tito Santana would rank top 10. It stands to reason: Mexico is a long way from here and was never part of the commonwealth. But I don't think a single part of that plays into it. I just watch Lucha stuff the same as I watch any other footage. Incidentally, I do feel like I've always had a special relationship with Japan though, cos I was a huge Nintendo fan as a kid and so much of the time we were looking to Japan for the latest releases.

Okay, good qualification concrete. I agree

This is a puzzling comment, because from where I'm sitting every single aspect of the WWE and its entire history looks like "something more cultural". I'm not sure wrestling and the local culture can ever really be separated. Bruno, Hogan, Austin, Cena -- they wouldn't have been the heroes if WWE had been based in London.

I don't think language has a huge amount to do with it because the example of Japanese wrestling is right there for a lot of us. To me Japanese wrestling and US wrestling are really quite similar in terms of the working styles and if you look at the intertwined histories of wrestling in both countries, I think it's pretty clear to see that. Yes, some superficial differences in terms of emphais on faces and heels / real sports focus, but other than that I think they are really similar. Closer than US wrestling is to old British wrestling, for example (in terms of the working style). World of Sport, I can imagine can be jarring for some. Being British myself and just clicking instantly with the feel and setting of the place certainly helps for me, but there the working style is pretty different. Not just the round system, but also in terms of the sorts of moves they do. There are a lot of head throws and slams that aren't really slams, and things like that. Not conventional wrestling moves like suplexes or piledrivers. The mat work they do is also a bit different, there is a bigger emphasis on the escape, and the sorts of sequences you see are quite a long way from your average Dory Funk Jr 70s match. But ... there is still enough cross over with the wrestling I know best for everything still to be recognisably "pro wrestling". Having terrific heels like Jim Breaks or Mick McManus about also helps. And you could say language is a factor there, because Kent Walton being such a stickler for the rules and fairness is an integral part of that package. But Lucha has always felt to me like a whole different ball game. A lot of your standard wrestling logic is just ... different. I've often felt like even the laws of physics seem different in lucha. Like a back drop is more "floaty". Matwork feels ... different. So much of what happens feels exhibtion-y or like a gorified form of "showing off" -- more like dancing than having a fight. And these elements all coalesce to make it hard to get excited about, especially for a guy who was always pretty down on high flyers. I mean, I was pretty HIGH on a lot of the 80s Lucha set stuff I watched but finding the will to pick up the next disc was very hard. Like, I did think MS-1 vs. Chicana was a 5-star match, but I didn't find it stayed with me much -- like Chad had that top 6, I think, in the "transcendent GOAT candidate" category, whereas I had it 33 as one of my lower ranked 5-star matches. When you are struggling to connect with something, it isn't easy to keep on going, it's like wading through treacle, and it doesn't take a lot to kill one's enthusiasm. It feels like of all the styles, lucha has by far the highest entry barriers. One reason why I am keeping going with it is because somewhere in my head I'm thinking "well, if I can get into it, it will show that practically anyone can". Maybe I'll get there, maybe I won't. I'd prefer people not to shout at me while I'm in the process though. It seems like lucha is one thing that people are unusually protective of and defensive about -- much much moreso than other things I've been extremely critical of (see 00s indy stuff) -- and perhaps one of the reasons for that is that historically it has struggled to get over with a lot of fans, and not that many are into it, so people prefer a narrative of positivity and praise around it. Contrast that with WWE where a lot of the narrative is negativity and criticism, it's alright to bash that because it's over with everyone. I dunno if that's the reason, but that's what I see. Another reason might be because I don't have a clue about lucha and might be saying stuff people have read a million times before. Whatever, but I am trying.

Thanks indeed, I've certainly learned something re: AAA and distinctions between styles within Lucha. I'm actually looking forward to checking out the matches on OJ's top 20 list quite a bit. Not saying it has "clicked" exactly, but specific workers (Panther, Wagner Jr, Casas) feel like they've given me a way in.

This is really all that needed to be said, since I had a suspicion this might be the case. As you've pointed out I've shown certain lucha matches love in the past, but these have been more the expection that proves the rule to date. I do hope you can see that if my mind was completely closed off, I simply wouldn't be bothering to persevere. Out of interest, do you agree with me that the matches I reviewed last night and today lack psychology?

Here you go, now you too can witness the genius of Dick and Kal:

Memphis 3.1 New York Dolls vs. Steve Regal & Spike Huber (10/4/82) We have seen a good deal of Rick McGraw on Titans, a much underrated worker who has consistently impressed in that plucky underdog babyface Sam Houston role he had in New York. Very interested to see him as a heel here. Jimmy Hart the manager of course. WWA tag team titles on the line. McGraw seems ever more jacked here than he was in WWF, has that distinctive squat frame. Different colour hair here. Big suplex by him now. Neckbreaker. Dream Machine (Troy Graham) in. Elbow drop. McGraw in. Elbow. Decent face in peril sequence on Regal this. Tags in and out, they've cut the ring off, and Regal is both semi blinded from Hart's powder and injured in the neck. This is some classic Southern tag psychology, and the formula works for a reason. Very enjoyable stuff this. Machine puts his head down for a back drop, Regal with a kick, just a hope spot, Machine cuts off the tag. McGraw in. Standing drop kick by him. Very impressive looking. Have to say I'm loving the pounding these guys are dishing out to Regal. And this has been a good performance in the FIP role by him, much better than he was on the AWA set here. He gets the tag, but the ref doesn't see it, and that allows the heels a spike piledriver, and Huber loses it getting himself DQ'd after hitting the ref. Another piledriver now on Huber. Post-match we get a heel beatdown. This was really solid stuff and I loved it. Just your basic Southern tag, but executed extremely well. McGraw and Regal in particular had real standout performances. Great stuff. ***3/4 Memphis 3.2 Jerry Lawler vs. Nick Bockwinkel (10/18/82) This is for the Southern title and Bock had won it here just weeks before Lawler was due to face Flair for the big one. If Bockwinkel retains, Lawler doesn't get the shot. Lance Russell explains all of this very well. Piledriver is also legal for this match. Full nelson by Bock, always find that an unusual move for anyone to do, like it was old fashioned even in 1982. I'd have been less than a month old here btw. Still with this Full Nelson. Lawler almost goes for a stunner but drops down instead and kicks up. Neat escape. Top wrist lock. Elbow and collar tie up. Body scissors by Bock. Want to take time out here to mention a woman in the front row who couldn't be more stereotypically Southern Dame. Remember that Miss Prissy that Foghorn Leghorn used to chase? She's dressed pretty much like that only without the bonnet. Meanwhile, Lawler has taken over. Backbreaker. Big right hand by Bock, a real sock in the mouth. Collision spot. Ref bump. Piledriver by Bock. Now see, why did he do that when the ref was out if it is not a DQ? Old habits die hard I guess, ha ha. Fifteen minutes gone. Bock slams Lawler in the corner. Knee drop across the back. He's really targeting the upper back and neck, which makes perfect sense after that piledriver. Choke over the bottom rope. Lawler comes back now. The strap comes down. A couple punches. But Bock rolls out of the piledriver attempt. Lawler gets slammed into the ring apron, which knocks the wind out of him. Bock goes for a piledriver. Blocked. Lawler goes for one now. Hits it! Bock slithers out of the ring before he can cover. Lawler follows him outside. Slam on the table. Posts him. Bodyslam back into the ring. Fist drop from the second rope. Cover gets two only. Miss Prissy hasn't moved through any of this. Atomic drop by Lawler. Cover is still two only. Running fist by Lawler as Bock is hanging off the apron. Cool spot that. And again. Rolls Bock in. Another second rope fist drop. Still can't get the pin and Bock sneaks over and steals a pin using the rope for additional leverage for the win. So Lawler doesn't get to face Flair and Bock has come out on top. As he celebrates, Lawler comes in with a huge velocity punch. This was a good match between two psychologists in the ring. It was told around the piledriver for large portions, and it was interesting that that didn't play into the finish at all. I felt Bock's heat sequence maybe didn't go on long enough for the comeback to be as great as Russell was making it out to be here. The strap came down pretty early on, and in terms of who took most of the match, probably Lawler. Given that Bock was going over, I understand why, but I'd have liked a bit more of that heat Bock was developing, especially that work on the upper neck. But this was still a good and well worked match, and I didn't see that finish coming. ***3/4 Memphis 3.3 Jerry Lawler vs. Nick Bockwinkel (10/25/82) This time Bock is AWA world champ again. Hammerlock into a top wrist lock to start by Bock and he's really syncing it in. Bock shouts loudly "this is a wrestling hold!", the intimation being that Bock is teaching this southern brawler how to wrestle. This has been an exceptional top wrist lock so far, this is how you work a hold in my view. Bock really excels at this sort of thing. He's one of my favourite wrestlers on the mat. Lawler tries to escape with an arm drag, but Bock keeps it locked on. Down to a pinning predicament now, but still in this wrist lock. Lawler tries to prise himself out but Bock shoved him back down to the canvas. I've found this whole deal quite compelling. It's scientific wrestling by Bock. Arm drag escape attempt again, a couple of times more. Bock changes tac now. Turnbuckle spot. Knee to the gut. Snap mare. Great punch by Bock. Finally Lawler hits a flying crossbody to gain a bit of respite. Just a hope spot though and Bock socks him with another great punch. Two head shots to the turnbuckle. Lawler feeling the second wind now. Three rights by Lawler. Slams into the turnbuckle. As Lawler is winding up some more, Bock pushes him into the ref with real force. Cheap heel move! Elbow from the top by Bock. Lawler then able to dump him. Table shots outside the ring. The comeback starts in earnest now back in the ring and holy shit, these are amazing punches by Lalwer, punch after punch after punch. Massive punch sends Bock down ref is out again. Ref rings the bell, but I think it's by DQ isn't it. Man that flurry at the end on Bock by Lawler was something else. I really thought this was a tremendous matchup, better than the previous one by a fair bit. Bock got more time in his heat sequence, which is what I wanted, and I loved that opening ten minutes of the wrist lock. And then I liked the several moments he cut off the comeback. He was able to build this match perfectly to the point of the comeback and when that comeback finally did come it was explosive as hell, like a Tazmanian devil had been let lose. Heat really good too. Really a very well told story here, and Bock the wily so and so getting away with the belt again. Lawler wins the battle but not the war. Great stuff and one of the best Memphis matches I've seen to this point. ****1/2 Memphis 3.4 Jerry Lawler vs. Nick Bockwinkel (No DQ) (11/8/82) This must be the blow off then and this has been a compelling in-ring feud so far. If Lawler loses, he loses his hair. Bock starts aggressively here, he's come to fight. Three or four punches. Bock is probably in my top 5 or 10 punchers. Goes to the eyes. Jabs left and right. Kick to the gut. Hard right. I love that Bock can brawl as well as he can work scientifically. Foot to the throat. Happy to play as dirty as it gets. This has been an ambush. Kicks to the face and chest. Big forearms to the chest. Bock literally standing on Lawler's throat now. Snap mare. Cover gets two. Roundhouse right. Spear by Lawler grabs some respite. King on top now. Snapmare. Rabbit punches. Ref needs to get the fuck out of the way here. Go away Jerry Calhoun. Rights by Lawler. Left. Left. Left. Big right. Another right. Chokes him with the towel. Fist drop. Piledriver. Cover gets ... Bock has a leg on the rope. Bock slips out of the ring. He comes back a bit now. Some rights by him. Tide has turned again. Kicks to the gut. Right. Lawler has colour now, bleeding from the eye. Dumps him. Bock goes after. Table shot. Slam onto the table. Head slammed onto the table. Hard right. Lawler lands in the front row. This is a real assault by Bock. Level of viciousness very high. Back in and then he dumps him over the top rope again. Grabs a rope stand. Ouch, slams his head on the top of that stand. Jerry Calhoun needs to back off! Lawler back in. Turnbuckle spot. Punch after punch by Bock. Goes for a piledriver, but Lawler reverses it into a backdrop. But he lands on the ref. Jimmy Hart sneaks in and nails Lawler in the back of the head. Bridging pin by Bock but ... Two only! The strap comes down. Five straight rights. Sixth. Bock is down and again. Second rope first drop. Cover gets barely a two. Slams the head back to the mat. Another fist drop. And another. And that gets three! Lawler is Southern champ again. This was a really good brawl. For me, I found the 10/25 match more compelling, where there was more wrestling mixed in with the fists. But this is really good, with Bock's assault on Lawler satisfyingly brutal, without being over the top. I honestly thought this comeback wasn't quite as hot as the one from the previous match and that made the finish feel a bit sudden. But it's a great brawl nonetheless. ****

I recall the Horsemen vs. Doom stuff from 1990 being a lot of fun, but can't actually recall if Flair got himself involved in an actual match. It might have been Arn and Windham only. I like the Butch Reed stuff that made the Mid-South set, and coming up to His matches vs. Flair, Ted and Murdoch soonish. Before that in 84 sort of time he's mostly against guys like Skip Young of Master G or guys like that. Has a great performance vs. Rock n Rolls. He has an interesting match with Dory Funk, I think it's from Florida, 2/3/82 (about 3.5 stars imo). Generally I think Reed is better positioned as a heel than a babyface.

Is that you James?

I'll come back to this. Will get an hour of 80s Memphis in before I head out.

What would help most is just some quick hits for Casas, Blue Panther or Dr Wagner Jr. Those guys have shown the most potential for doing stuff I could get into. I'd prefer 90s or 00s stuff to any of their old man performances. Only because I'd prefer to get a grasp on prime material before post-peak.

Please, what are you talking about? I just did a search for "Psychology in Lucha" and those were the first few things that came up on Google. Nothing to do with supporting my view and everything to do with the fact that other people have asked these same questions before and answers seem difficult to come by. Race has zero part in any of these reviews. I don't really see where "racially-based horseshit" comes from. I am laying out opinions, reasons for them, asking for clarification. You are being hysterical.

El Hijo del Santo vs. Rey Mysterio Jr (2/21/97) Rey's entrance music here is definitively 1997, techno techno techno. Santo looks cool in his cape. I've always wanted a cape. Crowd seems pretty pro-Santo to me, based on the chants. An awful lot of stalling at the start of this and feeling out at the start of this. They don't actually lock up until the 8-minute mark and even then they break off and circle again. And then a bit of outside interference takes us to more hyping, looking at the crowd and general not actually wrestling. 10-minutes in now. It looks like the chap outside the ring is going to be evicted. 10:35 they lock up. Waist lock / headlock sequence here with some escape attempts. Into a sunset flip. This is pretty slow going. And now there is more outside shenanigans. My god. Fifteen minute mark and they go back to it. Rey goes for leg, but Santo applies headscissors. I liked one little spot where the ref actually counted Santo because his shoulders were down while applying headscissors, neat attention to detail by that ref. They go to a Greco-Roman knuckle lock now. Unwise if you are Rey, I'd say, and he finds himself on his back soon enough. Tries to bridge up out of it. Arm drag. Hurricanrana from the top. And that's the first fall at 19 minutes. Very dull so far. Santo goes over to shake Rey's hand, this seems face vs. face. Dropkick by Rey. And again. Dive over the top rope. Goes for a springboard hurricanrana but Santo catches him for a powerbomb, for the second fall. 21 minutes. So instant reply. No real sense of flow or story in this match so far. It took 15 minutes to start, and then we got two falls in two minutes. Bulldog by Santo. Reverse surfboard camel clutch swingy thing. Backslide. Backdrop on Rey launches his head into the top turnbuckle. Inside cradle gets two. Second bulldog attempt countered. Snapmare by Rey. And again. Double-footed baseball slide. Spin kick. Rey is getting a lot of heel heat. Leg drop from the top onto the bottom rope. Snap mare. There doesn't seem to be any semblance of a game plan here at all. Back drop. Forearm smash. Crowd is really rabidly pro-Santo. Kneelift by him now. Torpedoes himself through the ropes to the outside. Goes for the camel clutch by Rey escapes. And again. Bodyslam. Diving headbutt from the top, two count only. Rey goes for a springboard move but gets caught in the camel clutch and submits. I really did not think this was a good match at all. Took far to long to start and then when it did, we got two far too sudden falls, and the third fall lacked any real semblance of structure, logic, or storytelling apart from the finishing stretch in which the camel clutch was teased before Rey was caught. The biggest issue in that third fall for me, was that what was effectively a heat sequence for Rey was all over the place. It was difficult to see what he was really going for, or how he was planning to beat Santo. The offensive sequence from him was extremely piecemeal. Santo was clearly going for the camel clutch, but that story didn't really start until there was about 3 minutes left. And in thirty minutes of a match, I'd really want more than three minutes of story. Not really recommended. ** Blue Panther vs. Love Machine (4/3/92) Love Machine is Art Barr. We covered some of his problems in 1990 on WTBBP on some point. This is mask vs. mask. Panther does a really swank backbreaker near the start of this that got my attention. It was like a butterfly suplex into a backbreaker, that's an uber cool move. He held Love Machine across the knee for the submission and first fall in about 5 minutes. The falls always seem so sudden. Awesomely cool spot though. Panther goes to work on Love Machine's leg now. Rack. Machine comes back with a clothesline. He has a manager too. Very poor looking DDT by Machine. Execution about a 2/10. Cover gets two. Stomps by Machine now. Dumps him. Action goes outside. Snap suplex out there, 8/10 for the execution that time. Big dive by Machine. Posts Panther. Rolls him in. Cover gets two. Sunset flip gets two. Another AWFUL DDT by Machine that was so bad I can't tell if Panther blocked it. Bulldog from the top. Also looked bad. Cover gets two. Tombstone piledriver. Ref isn't happy. Why's that? Move banned? Panther wins the fall on DQ? That seems like a horrible horrible finish for a mask match. Panther does a stretcher job here after the piledriver. Which is a nice way of getting the dangerousness of the move over but a poor way of ending a blood feud sort of match. Machine has to take his mask off now. Panther has been carried out. It's true he is Art Barr! I did dig the close ups of his face and him having to face the crowd. But losing the mask in that way seems really odd to me. Barr cuts a promo in Spanish. Anyway, I thought Blue Panther looked fantastic on offense in this match and carried his end of the match well, but Love Machine / Barr was just so sloppy with those DDTs, they looked horrible. And it really damaged this one for me. The match was also pretty short. I think around 10 minutes for the match itself. Blue Panther is a guy I'd like to see more of. I wonder if he had matches against Casas or Dr Wagner Jr. These are the three guys standing out so far. **1/2 Rey Mysterio Jr vs. Juventud Guerrera (3/16/96) Rey works the leg to start, but this is quickly jettisoned in favour of rope running. Some fancy exchanges here that I can't begin to describe. Outside the ring, back in the ring, hurricanrana by Rey, and a second off the top rope. Back outside. Sunset flip from the top by Rey. Springboard spin kick by Juventud. Tiger suplex takes first fall in 9:40. Second fall is more of the same to start: hurricanrana so and moves from the top. Incredibly spot heavy so far. And a fifth (??) hurricanrana from the top gives Rey the second fall. 13 or so in. Again trope of quick reply short second fall. Powerbomb by Rey. They do seem to be showing off an impressive range of moves here. Juventud with some time on top now. Teases that tiger suplex again, Rey struggles and escapes. We get a run in now, well it is 1996 after all ... Various heels sneak attack Rey on the outside, but he has some allies, brawling. Juventud decks the ref. Rey sneaks around and jumps on Juventud, but one of the baddies DDTs the ref. More run ins, more shenanigans, cavalry. Pier 6. Baby faces come out on top as always in these scenarios. Holy overbooked fuck finish. Finish aside, the preceding 18 minutes or so of match w got did not do a lot for me. It's just too spotty. It's like something seems like it is about to go somewhere and they abandon it to do another hurricanrana or move from the top or springboard assault. I'd love for someone to sit down and try to talk me through the psychology of something like this, because to me it's just spot, spot, spot, spot, spot, trying to pop the crowd and a law of diminishing returns. The one morsel of storytelling we got is Juventud trying the tiger suplex for the second time and Rey getting smart to it after copping the first fall already. Some of the action was good here, but it just seemed like all flash and no substance. *** At this point, I've lost faith in the DVDR Top 20 Lucha matches of the 90s and so I'm going to strike out doing targeted searches of Casas, Wagner Jr and Blue Panther.

You could have spent some time outlining how the assortment of dives and high spots I saw in those matches last night count as psychology or coherent storytelling or conform to any of the other usual standards we apply to wrestling matches. Were the criticisms I made unwarranted? If so, why? In the meantime, more Lucha to come. EDIT: I've been searching online for more on this and it's not like the perception I'm articulating doesn't exist. http://wrestlingclassics.com/cgi-bin/.ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=056502 Some dude called "Arn Anderson Fan" back in 2004 even went as far as to say that psychology and lucha are contradictory terms. https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/38xffh/fans_of_lucha_what_are_some_things_a_new_fan/ I'm mean there's a guy trying to get other people into Lucha flat-out saying "forget psychology and logic" when you watch this stuff. http://www.mlw.com/clubhouse/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26 If any of this stuff were ever explained properly to us, I'm sure it would be easier for those of us who really struggle hard to "get" Lucha to get into it.

Ciclon Ramirez vs. El Ferino (6/18/93) No real sense of flow to this for me. One guy does some matwork, the other guy does some, then out of nowhere they are doing big throws and dives. Finish comes out of nowhere. Most entertaining part of the match is Casas at ringside. 13 minutes of my life I'm not getting back. ** Rey Mysterio, Super Calo and Winners vs. Psicosis, Heavy Metal and Picudo (1/29/93) Going to be fun trying to work out who is who here. Super Calo has to be the guy in the shades doing the back flips. Rey looks like a small child. Winners has to be the guy all in white with white mask / face paint. Going to say Heavy Metal is the one in the Testament t-shirt and Picudo is in the black t-shirt and Union Jack mask. For some reason aspects of this reminded me of watching a random six man tag on WCW Saturday Night around this time, but not main eventers, more like the Mr Hugheses, Max Paynes or Shanghai Pierces of this world. Especially Winners and Heavy Metal, those guys have to be midcarders. I don't know if these types of trios matches and psychology are completely antithetical but to me something like this makes the average Steiners match feel like a chess game. A lot of schtick and a lot of dives. So many dives. People diving everywhere, more or less whenever they felt like it. And then it just ended. I can't follow something like this. It bears no resemblance to anything I consider to be a proper match. What I will say on the plus side, is that the heels really did feel like heels and Psicosis in particular stood out as a great agent provocateur. Rey was so tiny here, he looked vaguely ill, but I did like one spot where he kicked a guy's leg from under him. Looked cool. But generally this just felt like a bunch of stuff with no rhyme or reason. **1/2 Man Cibernetico (11/26/99) R. Bucanero. F. Gurrera. B. Panther. B. Warrior. U. Gurrero. Satanico. Zumbido. B. Salvaje. T. Rivera. E. Charles. T. Boi. Felino. Olimpico. Anitfaz. Santo. Casas. So what's this? 8 vs 8 survivor series? Battle Royale? Looks like a battle royal. Oh no, after five minutes it seems more like a tag match. No a survivor series. Or something. People are definitely getting eliminated. Would be lovely to have a single clue what was going on. I don't care what anyone says, this right here is the most inaccessible style: more than shoot style or world of sport. So hard just to follow a basic thread of what is actually happening. Completely off-putting, and I'm someone who has watched 100s of hours of wrestling. The pace was extremely frantic here. Lots and lots of dives and stuff happening. And chaos. And stuff happening. And dives. Negro Casas stood out to me again as looking great in almost everything he did, but I'd love to see him have like just a normal match against, I dunno, Arn Anderson or someone like that. This stuff is just so nuts. I don't know where I am with it. Satanico as a grizzled vet looked great here too, enjoyed the stiff strikes. Do notions like psychology apply to lucha? Do any of the usual standards we apply to wrestling matches? Or is it more or less just sitting there dazzled by the bright lights of a fireworks display for twenty minutes before coming out of a coma wondering what the hell you've just seen? I felt like I enjoyed this, sort of, I mean I have no idea what really happened, or why, but there were a lot of colours and men jumping around, and over things, and onto other men. And then it ended. *** Mr. Niebla vs. Dr. Wagner Jr. (9/397) There's a guy in the crowd of this one who I have dubbed "The Mexican George Costanza", they almost land on him at one point and it is quite funny. Also, I'm just a bit relived to have it just be two wrestlers going one on one, so at least I have some hope of following, sudden finishes notwithstanding. Wagner has really good character work. And I dug his offense a good bit, really solid heat sequence in the middle of this and he even found time to cut a promo. One lucha thing I really don't like however, is how the baby faces just go to the desperation plancha as their go-to hope spot. Makes very little sense to me, especially after a lengthy heat sequence, and here about ten minutes of punishment that Wagner dished out was more or less forgotten instantly by Niebla after he went for that plancha. It's like the standard rules for how to build a match just don't exist in lucha world, it's alright just to dive at any moment seemingly. Kinda annoyed me here too, because Wagner was building this match nicely, but Niebla blew his load and took this to fuck town way too early. Completely disrupted the flow. Finishing stretch was exciting though, despite some timing issues and sloppiness, and I could 100% follow it, which is so often the problem I have with finishes in lucha. Sick sick finisher by Wagner, not sure what you'd call it, but it's like a running piledriver / tiger driver thing. This match is not without its issues, but it's probably the best of the ones I've seen in this batch in terms of basic psychology and storytelling, and making spots mean something. Wagner Jr is a guy I could really get behind, he looked fantastic here, and came across like the sort of classic heel ring general I've always liked. Mr. Niebla, not so much, but some signs of promise with this one. I wonder if Wanger ever had a match with Casas ... Might be where I'm headed next. ***1/2

To answer your question by the way, I do think "banter" is probably a British term, as in I hear it said a lot more here than I do on American stuff.

I've listened to the first hour and twenty mins so far. Have to pause to go give some classes, but once you get past the first 10 minutes of intro / banter etc., I thought this was a pretty informed and intelligent discussion around the topic. I know the podcast game is pretty saturated, but I think this is worth giving some time for from a different group of voices. Looking forward to last hour.

Bix, no worries, still having problems with my excessively noisy new mouse, which seems to register every single click. Drives me nuts, so I can sympathise. I've really been enjoying this series btw. Enjoyed Chad coming in for this show, and I think this underlined once again how 1990 really was the last year of the 80s / first year of the 90s in so many ways in so many different promotions. So much transition going on. Also, have to mention Kris made me do a loud LOL right at the end with his "and you know all about that" line referring to Bix keeping his mouth on the tip. Hilarious moment.

Small production note chaps. If you want to level out the sound (in particular if the issue with Bix's mic persists), then follow these steps: 1. Export file to .wav in Audacity. 2. Download CN Levelator 3. Drag .wav file onto Levelator, it will create a file ending .wav.output 4. Open up that file again in Audacity and then export that as .mp3 5. Now do your post-production stuff, adding intro, ads, etc. It is not 100% perfect, but it DRASTICALLY improved sound quality and audio volume levels between Chad and I from the earliest days of WTBBP. Bix might also check audio levels on his main control panel and also on Skype itself. It is unlikely the fault of the mic, sounds like something internal. You might also try back-up recording, so that Bix is the internal input on one, and the speaker output on another, and choose the best one. I thought I'd post this here in public because there are a lot of guys here who do podcasts, and I thought I'd share some production stuff. Over the past few years, I've tried just about everything, and have probably spent MORE time on production than on actually recording shows -- one of those little things people probably don't realise.