JerryvonKramer

There is no substitute to the critical process Bill. Rage against me all you want. I ask only for workings beyond "just because I like it". Honestly, I think your vitriol against me on here and elsewhere is misplaced.

My fave example of this is when people were talking about the fantasy draft we did on WTBBP and jdw pointed out that he'd done it back in the late 90s.

I recognise entirely what you are talking about. On the -- probably lost forever -- album review series I did with Will, I remember talking about this at some length. Especially when the price of a CD was probably an entire day's pay from whatever shitty part-time job You were doing at the age of 16. That might be the only album you buy for a couple of weeks, or even a month. If you were like me, you'd probably spent weeks reading about it in magazines and books. The investment is already there. And so you WANT to like it. And let's say it doesn't click first time, or second, or third. You keep trying. Partly because it's the album you've just spent £16 on, partly because you want to understand why all these books and articles praise this album so much. But mostly because you just want to like it. I went through that process with many different albums. Will is fond of reminding me that I am not high on The Who. But that was a view formed from hours spent basically forcing myself to try to love Who's Next and fucking Quadrophenia that I'd just spent £20 on the deluxe double CD. Now, times have changed to and extent. I am convinced that the Internet has made things more disposable and more easy come, easy go. These days, it's easier to get hold of stuff, which is in some ways a wet dream for guys like us, but it takes away the journey of acquisition and with it the investment of wanting to like stuff. Wrestling is not so different. Remember tape trading? Remember how hard it was to get hold of footage? The guys who do would surely have a similar time of it trying to get into the stuff they'd just shelled for. I try with everything to take the same approach I always had, but no matter what you do, a click of a button is not the same as the process of going to the shop or waiting for weeks for that parcel to come through the post. Nonetheless, most of this has come from a desire to persevere. The same impetus that made me finally get Tom Waits after maybe two years of trying, is the same drive here. The true question though is: what allowances and adjustments do you make to accommodate that drive to like something? With Waits, for example, the voice is a barrier, the weird shanty almost pirate theme that pervades his most highly rated works ... might present a barrier. So does overcoming said "barriers" present a shifting of standards? Honestly, I don't know. We are getting towards the limits of how much I have thought of the critical process, and where I don't have answers. I don't know about the hip-hop analogy, I'm conflicted on it. I find these sorts of theoretical questions about criticism interesting, it's why I do what I do, but these are difficult ones and I can't pretend to have fully developed ideas on them. In closing though, let me say this: with certain things -- Jazz, Lucha, certain films (and it's funny you mention French New Wave, because it's not really my favourite scene) -- I accept and feel deep down that the failing is mine. As in, I see it as a form of my failing to get whatever it is people are seeing. I do out things forcefully sometimes, and can get "passionate" as you say, but it is a mistake to take some of my comments said in the moment absolutely. "I don't understand how anyone can think this is five star" is partly an admission of failure, rather than an assertion that my views are final and true. On the whole, I prefer being someone who helps other people get into things I like, than being the guy who takes a stance against critical consensus. I prefer it because in the latter case, I've always had this sense that "I'm probably in the wrong". This case included.

Just in case anyone doesn't know, for PWO-PTBN podcasts, this section is pretty neat and handy, especially if you are looking for the shows in chronological order: Ideally, I want to get all the old eps Wrestling Culture and Good Will Wrestling on there in time, not only to be completist, but also "for safe keeping". If people have any specific requests for certain episodes to be upped onto the feed, let me know (assuming the hosts are happy for that to happen). Dave and Dylan / Will and Naylor have too much good stuff to be lost.

http://placetobenation.com/all-japan-excite-series-12/ Parv and Steven tackle four more matches from 90s All Japan: 10/25/95 - Toshiaki Kawada vs Gary Albright 04/20/96 - Steve Williams vs Akira Taue 05/23/96 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue 06/07/96 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace

Ratings:

No, nothing to do with influence or importance, it stems entirely from my own critical judgement based on engagement with the work itself. And, as such, I'm not entirely sure why I need to explain this because it should be self-evident from the way I rate stuff and talk about stuff. Well there's never just one canon, there are always multiple ones. Wrestling criticism is in its infancy, but we still have multiple ones: - the old-school traditionalist's canon, this is your Larry Matysik top 50 list with Lou Thesz near the top, Flair about 10th, much more of an historical bias with 1950s as golden age. Jerry Lawler doesn't rank. American only. - then there's the Meltzer / Observer canon, one everyone knows. And this has an impact on a more general internet fandom. As such there are likely several sub-canons within this, based on timeframes: - the one with Flair-Steamboat as GOAT - the one with AJ mid-90s stuff as GOAT - the one with Benoit stuff circa early 00s as GOAT - the one very high on Daniel Bryan stuff later on in 00s - the one which lauds current NJPW very very highly - Meltzer himself is a weird amalagm of all of the above, plus some of the Matysik line of thinking too. He tends to think in terms of "moments in time". - There's also WWE official canon, which has Shawn Michaels as GOAT, with Undertaker top 5. Flair is somewhere up there too. - PWO general approach in *some* way acknowledges and challenges all of these canons. None of them are MY canon or YOUR canon. They are just frameworks we work within. And somewhere in all that is the Lucha canon in which Dandy vs. Azteca is a highly lauded match. Although it is true to say that not all canons are created equal. Flair vs. Steamboat within the fandom is a "HYPER-Canonical" text, insomuch there is virtually no corner of it that is untouched by at least an awareness of its existence.

I will never rank anything I don't personally get or care for. And, believe me, across music and films there are a ton of views I have that various snobs would find completely sacriligious. Just to toss out two horror films that are in just about every top 20 list going -- Night of the Hunter and Don't Look Now -- both films I pretty much hate. I have watched the latter three times and still hate it. I don't like Nicholas Roeg. I have gotten shit from other film fans for over-valuing economy and discpline and being too quick to mark stuff down for being "ponderous". Given that I specialise in Shakespeare, think Bob Dylan is indsputable GOAT songwriter and pick Flair and Jumbo as my 1 and 2, it's easy to get the impression of me as some sort of defender of the canon, but honestly I challenge the canon as much as I defend it. I mean look at Dandy vs. Azteca right here -- it's canonical, I don't like it. Plenty of times, I am prepared to stick my neck out and say "this isn't great" about the sacred texts. Doesn't matter the medium. So I do think the assessment from GOTNW is both unfair and contradictory. I'm very often prepared to be out on a limb on something and be honest enough to say "I don't like this". Velvet Underground and Nico is an album I rate very highly, I admire it a lot, and I have listened to it a lot. I don't LOVE it. But I'd put it in my top 100 list. We all have things like that which we admire and appreciate as art that we don't LOVE. And I don't at all think it's disingenuous or pretentious to have things like that. Many Bowie fans probably rank Low over Honky Dory, but which one do they LOVE and take to the desert island? My top 100 wrestling matches, they aren't all "critc's picks", it's a mix of things. Some are deeply personal picks, some are things I admire without loving. I've bolded the matches I LOVE LOVE LOVE and would consider taking to my desert island. 100. Randy Savage vs. Ted DiBiase, 6/25/88 MSG Cage Match, WWF/WWE 99. The Steiner Brothers vs. Tatsumi Fujinami and Takayuki Iizuka, 5/17/92 Wrestlewar, JCP/NWA/WCW 98. Rick Martel vs. Harley Race, 8/20/86, AWA 97. Larry Zbyszko vs. Masa Saito, 2/10/90 96. Jerry Lawler vs. Terry Funk, 3/23/81 No DQ Match, CWA 95. The Fantastics vs. Eddie Gilbert and Ron Simmons, 12/7/88 Clash of the Champions IV, JCP/NWA/WCW 94. Harley Race vs. Kerry Von Erich, 6/15/82, WCCW 93. Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger, 12/26/88 Starrcade, JCP/NWA/WCW 92. Jerry Lawler vs. Dory Funk Jr., 3/30/81, CWA 91. Rock N’ Roll Express vs. Arn and Ole Anderson, 11/27/86 Cage Match, JCP/NWA/WCW 90. Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk, 11/15/89 Clash of the Champions IX, JCP/NWA/WCW 89. Negro Casas vs. El Hijo Del Santo, 9/17/97, EMLL 88. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Wahoo McDaniel, 8/28/83, AWA 87. El Faraón, Herodes, and Mocho Cota vs. Lizmark, Ringo Mendoza, and Tony Salazar, 2/24/84, EMLL 86. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Rick Martel, 9/20/84, AWA 85. Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Genichiro Tenryu, 10/28/88, AJPW 84. Atlantis and El Hijo Del Santo vs. Fuerza Guerrera and Lobo Rubio, 11/25/83, EMLL 83. Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger, 2/25/90 Wrestlewar, JCP/NWA/WCW 82. King Tonga, Masked Superstar, & Sheik Adnan Kaissey vs. Crusher Blackwell & Sgt. Slaughter, 4/21/85 Cage Match, AWA 81. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Curt Hennig, 12/25/86, AWA 80. Antonio Inoki vs. Stan Hansen, 5/9/80, NJPW 79. Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Rick Martel, 9/29/85, AWA 78. Jim Breaks vs. Vic Faulkner, 7/5/77, WOS 77. Mitsuharu Misawa and Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada and Akira Taue, 6/1/93, AJPW 76. Bill Watts and Stagger Lee vs. Midnight Express, 4/22/84, Mid-South 75. Ricky Steamboat and Jay Youngblood vs. Don Kernoodle and Sgt. Slaughter, 3/12/83, JCP/NWA/WCW 74. Jim Breaks vs. Johnny Saint, 5/5/73, WOS 73. Ted DiBiase vs. Magnum TA, 5/27/84, Mid-South 72. Mitsuharu Misawa and Toshiaki Kawada vs. Giant Baba and Kenta Kobashi, 11/27/92, AJPW 71. Ric Flair, Arn Anderson, and Tully Blanchard vs. Lex Luger, Barry Windham, and Sting, 4/3/88, JCP/NWA/WCW 70. Buddy Rose and Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers, 1/17/87 Cage Match, AWA 69. Greg Valentine vs. Bob Backlund, 11/20/81, WWF/WWE 68. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Morton, 7/5/86, JCP/NWA/WCW 67. Stan Hansen vs. Carlos Colon, 1/6/87 Bullrope Match, WWC 66. Buddy Rose and Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers, 8/30/86, AWA 65. Steve Williams vs. Toshiaki Kawada, 4/16/94, AJPW 64. Wargames, 7/4/87, JCP/NWA/WCW 63. Giant Baba and Rusher Kimura vs. Genichiro Tenryu and Stan Hansen, 11/28/89, AJPW 62. Jim Breaks vs. Johnny Saint, 3/14/73, WOS 61. Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Kerry Von Erich, 5/22/84, AJPW 60. Brock Lesnar vs. Undertaker, 10/20/02 Hell in a Cell, No Mercy, WWF/WWE 59. Ricky Steamboat vs. Rick Rude, 2/29/92 Superbrawl II, JCP/NWA/WCW 58. Billy Robinson vs. Nick Bockwinkel, 12/11/80, AJPW 57. Andre the Giant vs. Stan Hansen, 9/23/81, AJPW 56. Ken Patera vs. Bob Backlund, 5/19/80, WWF/WWE 55. Stan Hansen vs. Leon White, 3/13/86, AWA 54. Arn Anderson vs. Barry Windham, 6/6/92, JCP/NWA/WCW 53. Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Giant Baba and Jumbo Tsuruta, 3/13/75, AJPW 52. Ricky Steamboat vs. Randy Savage, 3/29/87 WrestleMania III, WWF/WWE 51. Terry Funk vs. Stan Hansen, 4/14/83, AJPW 50. Genichiro Tenryu and Stan Hansen vs. Jumbo Tsuruta and Kenta Kobashi, 7/15/89, AJPW 49. Dory Funk Jr. vs. Jack Brisco, 2/8/72, AJPW 48. Lex Luger and Barry Windham vs. Arn Anderson and Tully Blanchard, 3/27/88 Clash of the Champions I, JCP/NWA/WCW 47. Mitsuharu Misawa and Toshiaki Kawada vs. Akira Taue and Jumbo Tsuruta, 9/30/90, AJPW 46. Arn Anderson and Larry Zbyszko vs. Dustin Rhodes and Ricky Steamboat, 11/17/91 Clash of the Champions XVII, JCP/NWA/WCW 45. Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair, 12/28/85, JCP/NWA/WCW 44. Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi, and Toshiaki Kawada vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue, and Masa Fuchi, 5/22/92, AJPW 43. Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. The Sheik and Abdullah the Butcher, 7/15/79, AJPW 42. Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair, 9/26/87, JCP/NWA/WCW 41. Rick Rude vs. Ricky Steamboat, 6/20/92 Beach Blast, JCP/NWA/WCW 40. Rand Orton vs. Cactus Jack, 4/18/04 Backlash, WWF/WWE 39. Kenta Kobashi and Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs. Doug Furnas and Dan Krofatt, 5/25/92, AJPW 38. Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, 6/8/90, AJPW 37. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat, 5/7/89 Wrestlewar, JCP/NWA/WCW 36. John Cena vs. Umaga, 1/28/07 Royal Rumble, WWF/WWE 35. El Dandy vs. Negro Casas, 7/3/92, EMLL 34. Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Stan Hansen and Terry Gordy, 8/31/83, AJPW 33. Sangre Chicana vs. MS-1, 9/23/83, EMLL 32. Ted DiBiase vs. Jim Duggan, 3/22/85, Mid-South 31. Toshiaki Kawada and Genichiro Tenryu vs. Stan Hansen and Terry Gordy, 12/16/88, AJPW 30. Billy Robinson vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, 3/23/77, AJPW 29. Ric Flair vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, 6/8/83, AJPW 28. John Cena vs. JBL, 5/22/05 Judgement Day, WWF/WWE 27. Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk, 7/23/89 Great American Bash, JCP/NWA/WCW 26. Jumbo Tsuruta and Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu and Yoshiaki Yatsu, 2/5/87, AJPW 25. Roman Reigns vs. Brock Lesnar, 3/29/15 WrestleMania XXXI, WWF/WWE 24. Billy Robinson vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, 3/5/77, AJPW 23. Curt Hennig vs. Nick Bockwinkel, 11/21/86, AWA 22. Giant Baba vs. Billy Robinson, 7/24/76, AJPW 21. Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin, 3/23/97 WrestleMania XIII, WWF/WWE 20. Jack Brisco vs. Giant Baba, 12/5/74, AJPW 19. Wargames, 2/24/91 Wrestlewar, JCP/NWA/WCW 18. Stan Hansen and Genichiro Tenryu vs. Jumbo Tsuruta and Yoshiaki Yatsu, 12/6/89. AJPW 17. John Cena vs. Brock Lesnar, 4/29/12 Extreme Rules, WWF/WWE 16. Sgt. Slaughter vs. Pat Patterson, 5/4/81 Alley Fight, WWF/WWE 15. Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, 9/1/90, AJPW 14. Sgt. Slaughter vs. Iron Sheik, 6/1/84 Bootcamp Match, WWF/WWE 13. Mitsuharu Misawa and Kenta Kobashi vs. Akira Taue and Toshiaki Kawada, 5/21/94, AJPW 12. Stan Hansen vs. Toshiaki Kawada, 2/28/93, AJPW 11. Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart, 3/20/94 WrestleMania X, WWF/WWE 10. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat, 2/20/89 Chi-Town Rumble, JCP/NWA/WCW 9. Mitsuharu Misawa and Kenta Kobashi vs. Akira Taue and Toshiaki Kawada, 12/3/93, AJPW 8. Wargames, 5/17/92 Wrestlewar, JCP/NWA/WCW 7. Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi, and Toshiaki Kawada vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue, and Masa Fuchi, 4/20/91, AJPW 6. Jumbo Tsuruta and Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu and Yoshiaki Yatsu, 1/28/86, AJPW 5. Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. The Sheik and Abdullah the Butcher, 9/19/78, AJPW 4. Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada, 6/3/94, AJPW 3. Magnum T.A. vs. Tully Blanchard, 11/28/85 Starrcade I Quit Cage Match, JCP/NWA/WCW 2. Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Genichiro Tenryu, 6/5/89, AJPW 1. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat, 4/2/89 Clash of the Champions VI, JCP/NWA/WCW I don't think this sort of thing is unique to me AT ALL, we all have to weigh personal love of things vs. some sort of more impartial judgement. It's not disingeuous, it's not pretentious, it's just what criticism is. Wrestling criticism is still in its infancy.

It seems pretty subjective. You and the chap from the other board did not defend on the same points or agree on all points. Was that chinlock by Azteca loose and terrible, or as the chap said, is that what it's meant to look like? I will say that I found the exercise interesting.

I'm not sure that the weight class would really excuse any of my problems with the ten minutes I highlighted. But each and every one of those problems has been dismissed or explained away by defenders of that match, so that's all fine. I mean, I feel like I've seen Mike Graham matches with better matwork and better psychology than Dandy vs Azteca, and know I've given a couple of Graham matches a higher rating. I also happen to think Mike Graham mostly sucks and is boring. But at least he knew how to work a believable looking chinlock, unlike Azteca. I don't think I'm really going to come round because my distaste for the elements I pointed out are too great. But it is also just one match. I am going to watch some Satanico, Casas and Blue Panther as soon as I have some time to watch wrestling again.

I'm interested by why that seems impossible to you.To me Flair vs. Garvin -- to give just one example -- is as hard hitting as anything All Japan 95 can throw up. I feel like I judge across NWA and All Japan pretty fairly and evenly and hold them to exactly the same standards. I do not believe All Japan 95 has different (as in higher) standards to 80s Crockett or even 80s All Japan. The guys tend to do more stuff and the style is towards excess, but I do not see Misawa and co as working on another plane to Jumbo, Choshu, Yatsu and co in 86, or Flair and Steamboat in 89, or Flair in general. They are all in the same sort of ball park to me. Billy Robinson in the 70s is also right there too. I don't feel like I have to adjust anything watching any of that stuff. Ditto with Mid-South. I judge WWF stuff against all of that, and mostly it is found wanting because of the limitations put on the guys. AWA on the whole is not on a par with NWA or AJ either. Each of those promotions had their own quirks, but there is enough commonality that I can compare across. I mean you get a lot of the same workers across them too at different times, which demonstrates the point. World of Sport is a weird case and I often find it strange applying star ratings to those matches, or comparing guys who worked that style to any of the above. It seems to stand alone and be its own thing. But generally, whether the date on the match is 1972, 1982, 1992, 2002, or 2012, I judge it in exactly the same way. I don't really change what I'm looking for. I mean, Pete and Johnny have accused me of being too fixed in my views of what makes good wrestling before in many arguments over Bob Backlund matches. I thought he worked too strong, was selfish and guzzled his challengers. They argued that you have to make allowances for the New York style and that I want every babyface to be Ricky Steamboat. I'm simplifying, but you get the picture. I think I've always been quite consistent on this. I don't see them as working on a higher plane either. But take your Flair-Garvin example. Their matches were exceptionally hard hitting in the context of '85-'87 Crockett. So when I watch them, I'm impressed by the way they push past the standards of their promotion. Stick those same matches in '95 AJPW or '93 WAR-NJ and they'd still be rugged, exciting affairs, but the stiffness wouldn't stand out.Take Flair as a worker in general (can of worms alert). If you compare his offense to prime Misawa's offense without any contextualizing, you almost have to conclude that Flair's attack was shit (or at least primitive). But situated in his time and place, Ric's offense was perfectly good. He hit hard, tossed in some nice suplexes, etc. I can't imagine watching wrestling without making those adjustments. Same thing with real sports. Stick LeBron James in the 1960s NBA and he would have seemed like a space alien. Does that mean he's automatically better than anyone who played then? Not to me. I'm not suggesting you're being disingenuous. Your GWE approach seemed similar--set your bar and judge everyone against it. It would just be a foreign way for me to watch wrestling, and I'd enjoy a lot of workers and matches less. I've never really relativised in this way. Which is why Tiger Mask matches in 1982 fall flat, even if he was doing some "holy shit" stuff in the context of that time and place. I tend to dislike making allowances for context because it has a weird "theory of progress" implied in it, one which Dave Meltzer and Joe Lanza have both argued for in the past. It implies a 5-star match in 1978 is somehow less than one in 2015.

As a side point, I also think that, for example, the All Japan style and NWA style have common roots and common influences. Harley Race and the Funks loom large as figures in the working style of both. The stiff chops of AJPW and the stiff chops of the old Mid-Atlantic promotion are also pretty similar. You could imagine what Wahoo vs. Tenryu might look like as a match. They all feel like part of the same universe, Lucha, on the whole, feels like part of an entirely separate universe.

I'm interested by why that seems impossible to you. To me Flair vs. Garvin -- to give just one example -- is as hard hitting as anything All Japan 95 can throw up. I feel like I judge across NWA and All Japan pretty fairly and evenly and hold them to exactly the same standards. I do not believe All Japan 95 has different (as in higher) standards to 80s Crockett or even 80s All Japan. The guys tend to do more stuff and the style is towards excess, but I do not see Misawa and co as working on another plane to Jumbo, Choshu, Yatsu and co in 86, or Flair and Steamboat in 89, or Flair in general. They are all in the same sort of ball park to me. Billy Robinson in the 70s is also right there too. I don't feel like I have to adjust anything watching any of that stuff. Ditto with Mid-South. I judge WWF stuff against all of that, and mostly it is found wanting because of the limitations put on the guys. AWA on the whole is not on a par with NWA or AJ either. Each of those promotions had their own quirks, but there is enough commonality that I can compare across. I mean you get a lot of the same workers across them too at different times, which demonstrates the point. World of Sport is a weird case and I often find it strange applying star ratings to those matches, or comparing guys who worked that style to any of the above. It seems to stand alone and be its own thing. But generally, whether the date on the match is 1972, 1982, 1992, 2002, or 2012, I judge it in exactly the same way. I don't really change what I'm looking for. I mean, Pete and Johnny have accused me of being too fixed in my views of what makes good wrestling before in many arguments over Bob Backlund matches. I thought he worked too strong, was selfish and guzzled his challengers. They argued that you have to make allowances for the New York style and that I want every babyface to be Ricky Steamboat. I'm simplifying, but you get the picture. I think I've always been quite consistent on this.

Matt, I know what I like in my wrestling. I like Rick Rude vs. Ricky Steamboat. I like fast-paced tags with Yatsu in them. I like stiff, tight, snug, well-executed work with storytelling, logic, intensity, and the illusion of genuine competition (with or without hatred). I also like suplexes, strong character work and crowd control.. I don't particularly care for high-flying, or dizzying crowd-wowing stunts. I don't like work that I consider to be loose or "fake" (and by "fake" I mean "fake within the absurd rules of wrestling which allow for Irish whips"). I don't like work that looks co-operative or like a form of dancing. I gravitate towards work that is like the former and away from work that is like the latter. Towards NWA, All-Japan, the early 90s, 80s and 70s, away from modern indies, Lucha and Jeff Hardy. Everyone has their tastes. And I get the distinct impression that my attempts to get into Lucha have generally just pissed people off. I don't want to piss people off, I want to talk about the thing I love -- the wrestling I love -- with people who share in that love. You can understand why I might be disinclined to carry on.

I will say this also: I am conflicted on this because there is something in my own stance on hip-hop that makes this statement about wrestling a little hypocritical. By which, I mean, I insist that you must judge hip-hop on its own terms and by its own internal rules and not by the same standards you'd judge the songwriting of Bob Dylan or Leonard Cohen. By the standards of the latter, the lyrics of GZA from Wu-Tang Clan are just trite and shallow. By the standards of hip-hop itself, GZA lives upto his name and is a "genius" of the genre. I don't consider hip-hop against all the other music, I consider it on its own. But I recognise that to like hip-hop you have to "get" hip-hop. I'd never say "if you don't like hip-hop, you don't like music", because I can imagine certain died-in-the-wool fans of many of the great acts I like having a real blind spot for hip-hop in general. It is "its own thing". And that's what is giving me the problem with this whole discussion really. But I think it might be reconciled by simply making the move of saying "Lucha is to wrestling what hip-hop is to music, only ... in this case, it's not for me". And that seems to work everything out. I think.

I just put this on my twitter and will put it here too: Dandy vs. Azteca: like I've said, everything needs to be relativised, you have to alter all your expectations. Different standards apply. For right or for wrong, I'm not willing to change the standards by which I judge wrestling. I don't make special allowances for style. EDIT: Special thank you to OJ for his very mature response to this. Appreciated, and I think I understand things better now too.

Here you go OJ. Time stamps refer to this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0fLKAa3QFU) rather than from the point the bell rang. I am only going to do the first 10 minutes or so, because I think this will give people more of a realistic shot at closely analysing the footage I'm talking about and offering their own thoughts. 1:43 - this is the opening gambit, it seems like a drop toehold, but seemed overly co-operative to me. Why did Azteca pause before finally going down? Outrageously "fake" looking for me. I am also not sure about immediately going into "legwork" like that as the very first thing in a match. 2:06 - the escape from Azteca is far far too easy as El Dandy basically just rolls over when it's time for his opponent to work the hold for a bit. Another of those WTF lucha things that take me out of it. Only 2 minutes in and I'm already not really enjoying the work I'm seeing. The level of cooperation is too transparent. 2:41 - front facelock by Dandy into waistlock thing by Azteca, again, much too cooperative and virutally no struggle. I see this work as being really sloppy. 2:47 - After that Azteca just lets go of the waistlock thing for Dandy to do the knee on the leg and hold that follows. Again, where is the sense of this actually being a competetive contest? 3:03- We do get a bit of back and forth punching now, which is the first sign of genuine struggle in this match to this point. 3:27 - the hold is again much much too easily countered, however, as El Dandy just lets Azteca wrap his arm around his head and pull him over with scarcely any struggle at all. This is really so lackluster that I don't understand how people can say otherwise. Listless work with no sense of urgency, pain, competition, or anything. 5:07 - here we see Azteca try to fight a bit more with some kicks, but once again Dandy releases the hold far far too easily at 5:24 and proceeds to just lay there as Azteca leisurely puts on a hold of his own. 5:49 - pattern continues, as Azteca gives way seemingly willingly to a body-scissors counter by Dandy. It's not a chess match between two opponents, it's a dance with each guy taking turns playing the girl willing themselves to be "led". 6:04 - El Dandy releases the body scissors, which was always a very very loose looking one for ... basically no reason at all. And Azteca gets back on top. This is really bad stuff. Literally "your turn", with the guy on top openly inviting the opponent (aka dance partner) to take their place. 6:35 - A note here on psychology. It was once pointed out that Dory Funk Jr has a habit of moving from hold to hold with no rhyme or reason. There has been almost no focus on any body part or even AREA in this match from either guy so far. The "narrative" is that each guy is finding escapes and ways to out-think the opponent, but this has been severely undermined by the sense of cooperation I've been pointing out so far. So we get a general movement from leg to torso to arm to neck from both. Everything so far has just been there eating up time, but by pretty much every barometer I'd look for in a match, it has failed to be "interesting" in any way at all. 7:05 - the first logical counter in the match that didn't look contrived: El Dandy uses a variation on a pump-handle slam to escape an arm lock. 7:29 - here Dandy capitalises on his advantage by applying a chin lock, but where a guy like your Dory Funk Jr or Bob Backlund might lean in on this with his bodyweight -- which would make sense since Azteca CLEARLY wants to get to his feet to attempt an escape -- here Dandy ... gets up with Azteca which of course allows him to counter with a side-Russian leg sweep. Literally appalling work in my view. Sense of struggle: 0/10. Sense of logic from Dandy applying the hold: 0/10. Holds in this match have consistenly been treated as light transitions rather than ... attempts to control the match and inflict pain. It's basic, basic psychology that is ... entirely missing here. 10:18 - after a two count, Azteca once again limply surrenders his advantage to Dandy for ... no discernable reason that I can see. 10:50 - one of the first glimmers of "interesting detail" in this match as Azteca tries to go for a Rick Rude reverse chin-lock and Dandy counters but putting his head down, so he can't synch in the move. However, as Azteca has his arms around the head so loosely (I mean you can almost see the air) that it's difficult to see how this might hurt anyway. This is the exact opposite of snug work. It's loose to the point where it looks fake. There is no semblance of real pain in a hold like this and it takes me out of things. 11:30 - still in this hold, a good example of the "looseness" of the work I've been talking about at its most egregious. Again, my definition of "terrible matwork". You can see clear daylight between Azteca's arms and Dandy's face. It's possible he's trying to work the temple of the forehead, but this would be a very strange way of doing it. This is one of the worst and fakest looking holds I've seen in my entire life. Let's leave it there. I think that's enough to chew on for now. Depending on what sort of discussion this generates, I might then go onto the next 10 minutes.

No, that ought to do it.

Care to elaborate?

Pretty interesting given your Stan Hansen criticisms, Matt.

One thing I've noticed in the 2/3 falls singles matches is that the first fall can come very suddenly after 10 minutes or so, and then the second fall is often directly after it, like 2 minutes instant reply to even up 1-1. And the third fall is longer. Could just be sampling bias, but I've seen a fair few matches now that conform to that general patternover the past year or so. This isn't actually all that different from 2/3 falls in 70s All Japan or your standard Harley Race title defense (it's almost always 1-0, 1-1, 2-1), it just that that second fall is much more truncated and sudden in the Lucha.

Thanks Matt, tremendously helpful post!

Does remind me that I will get to the time-stamp thing on Dandy vs. Azteca for OJ.

I think in general the body types might reflect broader cultural trends. In the 1970s, action stars were not stacked. They were lean, athletic, toned, but not jacked up. Bruce Lee, Burt Reynolds, Chuck Norris, etc. Their body types are reflected in guys like Ricky Steamboat and Jack Brisco, who were top stars in the 70s. In the 1980s, action stars were Arnie, Sly Stallone ... Mr. T. Guys who were more jacked. Hogan and co are the obvious wrestling counter-parts. 1990s had smaller guys -- not "small", but not Arnie-size, Bruce Willis, Mel Gibson, Tom Cruise ... Wrestling had smaller guys coming through -- although steroid deal played a role in that. 00s saw some bigger dudes in action films: Vin Diesel, Hugh Jackman, guys like that. Wrestling got guys like Dave Batista at the bigger end (who incidentally, has a pretty big role in Spectre, the new Bond film, which I watched last night) but the look is most closely reflected by Randy Orton. 10s saw a general leaning up of the look, less bulky more . Best example is Harry Cavill in that Man of Steel film a couple of years back:

Lord Kitchener had an absolutely glorious moustache. I'd be surprised if that image wasn't also iconic in the US and elsewhere in the world. Certainly is here. I think the Uncle Sam poster was modeled on the Kitchener one. He did have other posters too, he was the public face of the army. Kitchener is also pretty famous for being the guy responsible for the basically disasterous "dig a trench, go over the line, and wait for the Germans to shoot you" strategy that dominated World War 1. The standard critique would be that he took tactics that worked against Zulus armed with spears and applied them in a situation in which they were outmoded. This was spoofed famously in Blackadder in the character of General Melchett played by Stephen Fry. That show in general does a great job of exposing the absurdity of the British high command during that war for which Kitchener was (literally) the poster boy.