JerryvonKramer

This is fantastic info on Talent. Thanks for that Muracofan. It seems to me that Kal Rudman and Talent would have been going to the same bigwig parties and functions with local dignitaries. We got another great bit of info over on KM about this show which I'll share here. About the Monsoon "retirement" match: By the way, I COMPLETELY forgot during the discussion of commentators to talk about Bill Watts as a brilliant play by play guy. I even had it in mind and the conversation took a turn and it slipped from my mind. I was kicking myself after the show because I wanted to talk about just how much Jim Ross had learned from Watts about how to put over stories and angles.

http://placetobenation.com/titans-of-wrest...september-1980/ Parv, Johnny, Pete and Kelly take another trip to MSG in 1980 for a look at the historic Backlund vs. Race, WWF title vs. NWA title match. On the docket tonight: 09-06 HULK HOGAN INTERRUPTS ANDRE THE GIANT INTERVIEW CHAMPIONSHIP WRESTLING 09-13 ANDRE THE GIANT vs HULK HOGAN CHAMPIONSHIP WRESTLING 09-20 HULK HOGAN vs STEVE KING / ANGELO GOMEZ ALL STAR WRESTLING 09-80 BOB BACKLUND, HARLEY RACE PROMOS WWF TV 09-22 ANDRE THE GIANT vs HULK HOGAN MADISON SQUARE GARDEN 09-22 BOB BACKLUND vs HARLEY RACE WWF CHAMP vs NWA CHAMP MADISON SQUARE GARDEN Highlights include: - Bio for jobber Steve King and his residency at "Steve King's House" aka The Zembo Mosque - The secret sex life of Classy Freddie Blassie - Pete finally re-reviews Hogan vs. Andre from Wrestlemania 3 - Kelly's history lesson: WWF title vs. NWA title matches down the ages - Parv takes on all comers like Andre vs. an army of jobbers as he rants about one of his all-time least favourite matches The PWO-PTBN Podcast Network features great shows you can find right here at Place to Be Nation. By subscribing on iTunes or SoundCloud, you’ll have access to new episodes, bonus content, as well as a complete archive of: Where the Big Boys Play, Titans of Wrestling, Pro-Wrestling Super-Show, Good Will Wrestling, and Wrestling With the Past.

Most disappointing thing to me about this thread is that all the long posts Charles and I (and others) made dispelling all of the myths about Flair's matches all being the same and all of that (or did those actually take place in "The Flair formula"). And I still see people peddling the same old shit about Flair as if those conversations, counter examples and so on never took place. That's frustating. It's one area where I feel we didn't make a lot of progress, unlike in other threads where I feel -- no matter how heated things got -- that most of us came out of it months later having learned about something or thought it through more or whatever. Not so here.

It's on the set

Yeah we've talked about this. I feel like I'm trained as a fan to expect beat downs in the heat section that build sympathy for the babyface before a comeback a la Dusty, Hogan, Ricky Morton, Steamboat, take your pick. The psychology of a Bob match is different. He's seldom in the business of generating what we'd usually call "sympathy" because he doesn't stay down long enough. To an extent, I think he has this in common with Inoki. That "constant struggle" way of working is not really to my tastes because I still don't understand the psychology of it or what it's meant to achieve. I said it before, it's babyface as Scrappy Doo and, well, Scrappy Doo is annoying and sucks. Bob is better at taking matwork than he is at selling high spots I think. That "struggle" keeps matwork interesting if he's on the receiving end and strikes me as "more realistic" than when guys just sit there in the hold. That's a plus for Bob. And guys like Robinson and Bockwinkel do all that sort of thing well too. My problem with the "vulnerability" comes more when he's eating big suplexes or piledrivers and then giving the guy a 1-count. Or where he's straight back up and getting his own shit in. Kurt Angle catches a lot of flack around this parts for that sort of thing, but I think Backlund is occasionally guilty of it. In this Race match we're talking about, for example, Race has about a minute on offense during which he gives Backlund a piledriver and he shrugs it off as if nothing happened. That's the sort of thing I have a problem with. Backlund's "lemme at 'im" approach to selling works for matwork, I'm not sure it works for taking big bombs.

I've seen most of those matches jdw. Hogan vs. Backlund is worked as a "clash of the titans" sort of deal. I'm not sure that Backlund sold his ass off for Hogan. Felt more like irresistible force meeting immovable object to me. Closest thing to a carry job I've seen from him so far though. In the Patera matches, Backlund hardly stopped struggling during Ken's sequences on top. I also had a problem with his goofy-as-hell selling of the bearhug, but that's just me. I guess the point with those is that even when he's selling, Backlund isn't really showing much vulnerability. Larry match I don't think I've seen, or at least I can't recall it. I'm not sure if Khan made the set. Slaughter stuff coming up. I guess I just don't enjoy the way he works during heat segments (if he actually allows them to happen). I've been in the minority with Backlund for the past 5 months now though, so this is nothing new.

Ivan Koloff is a very "underneath" sort of worker though, at least what I've seen of him. It will be interesting to see if Bruno as champ worked as dominant as Backlund.

It's possibly the most extreme case of "playing the bitch" of all time though. I do think Backlund has a problem showing weakness and vulnerability. It's starting to be a major problem for me watching his matches. Bruno didn't. Hogan didn't. But Backlund might just be "the strongest" babyface I've ever seen. He doesn't give his opponents much. There are times when I think even guys like The Road Warriors gave heels more. So my biggest disappointment with this match was that it so crushingly confirmed every expectation I had going into it. I knew Bob wouldn't give Harley anything and I knew Harley would bitch himself out. That's one of the reasons I took against it so much. I'm extremely interested to see what Stan Hansen does with Backlund now in 1981. Hansen FORCED Inoki to sell for him in that series of matches. I want to see him do the same with Backlund.

I don't actually disagree that the high spots were good and that the action itself was well executed and cool. But you can see my problem with the match. I still don't understand why the context excuses anything. It accounts for it, but does it justify it? And was Bob really that good at working his spots that he didn't need a Harley control segment? The 18-minute+ headlock suggests to me that he didn't have a 101 ideas of how to fill that space. Is the conclusion of all this that WWF fans just wanted to see their champ kick the NWA's champ ass for 35 minutes straight, cutting off any and all attempts at a transition, winning any and all 50-50s and giving the NWA champ no heat segment? If that's what WWF fans really wanted in 1980, then I don't like WWF fans of this period. But I don't actually believe that's what they wanted to see or that wrestling fans in general want to watch very very one-sided matches, especially those with supposedly high stakes.

We've actually got to the point where I'm just counting the days for Stan Hansen to come in and by god I hope Hansen kicks the shit out of Backlund.

If Backlund didn't dominate every single damn match he ever had, I'd agree with you Pete. But as it was I'm not sure if it achieved anything except making Harley seem like a chump. It was the same Backlund stuff we see every week from MSG. If anything guys like Duncum probably got more time on top (10% rather than 5%). So all it does is bury Harley.

85 TBS studio match 87 Garvin title win Those matches give that one some context. The problem with Backlund vs. Race for me is that the context is seeing Backlund wrestle dozens of matches in a really dominant way and Race in a really "underneath way", so it was especially crushing to see them go on to have such a predictably one-side match. I don't get what you were trying to say anyway? That I'm just biased for Flair and against Backlund?

And the 2008 French Open final was disappointing. If all the match was was an elaborate self-hype job by the WWF to put themselves and their own title over while burying the NWA, they succeeded in that aim. That doesn't excuse anything though, it only accounts for it. Why the NWA or Harley would agree to it though is beyond me -- although it's clear that the match not airing or seen by anyone beyond the 22,000 people at MSG was part of that deal. It also doesn't make it any more forgivable though. Did it need 35 minutes, 9 different spots where Backlund cuts Race off, the burial of Race's piledriver, and a bladejob from Race to establish all of that and tell that story? Everyone talks about "story". Is "Backlund is just 100 times better than Race and so the WWF is 100 times better than the NWA" a particularly compelling story? Was this the best way to tell that story? Should they have been trying to tell that story? You tell me.

I don't really want to rehash the argument we had on the show, but like I said Die Hard works because Hans Gruber is built up as something to over come. The film wouldn't work if Bruce Willis kicked his ass from pillar to post for the whole movie. Name me one successful film in which the hero kicks the villain's ass for the entire running length, and I'll concede the argument. Even if you switch from movies to sports as your basis of comparison, it would be a major let down if Federer vs. Nadal had been one-side demolition jobs. People don't want to see their heroes DESTROY their opponents, they want to see them overcome some formidable odds. Whichever way you spin it, the concept of the match is fundamentally retarded. If people want to see their boy kick ass and only kick ass, why did Hogan bother giving heels heat segments? Why do heels have any offense at all?

I've analysed Flair vs. Garvin matches in some depth. I've analysed many Flair matches in some depth. Flair almost always does enough to get over the idea of him being a world class wrestler. Sometimes the extended shine sequences come across like they are a type of mind game: Flair knows he can take it, he knows he can go as long as it needs to and that the face will slip up or make a mistake or get blown up sooner or later. Key thing is that once the transition happens, Flair gets his shit in and you're never really in doubt that this guy is an amazing wrestler. The only match off the top of my head where Flair really doesn't get enough is vs. Hogan in 94. I've always thought Hogan treated him like a jobber in that match. I have a problem with the Tully vs. Garvin matches though, which are worked with Garvin getting 99% of the offense and Tully stealing a cheap win. The psychology is backwards and stupid. Although it can at least be justified: Tully was more of a chicken-shit / Honky-Tonk Man style heel than Flair and that sort of thing was going to get him heat. I don't have a problem with this structure when it's something like Hogan vs. Bockwinkel where the heel has been ducking the babyface for months and months and the face is being carried by sheer anger and adrenaline. Here, things are different. The context of this match was a one-off special title vs title match. Backlund gives Race nothing. On the next episode of Titans we have probably most heated debate on any podcast I can think of (that I've been on or indeed heard) about the logic and psychology of Race vs. Backlund. I still don't buy the counter arguments provided by Pete and Johnny. I'll go as far as to say that they [the counter arguments] are moronic, and that they bury the New York crowd as being basically morons. I'll leave something for the show though -- I've never been as fired up as I was there. This match highlights a lot of my problems with Backlund being selfish as a worker: he's too dominant, he doesn't sell, he doesn't show vulnerability, and he doesn't vary his offense enough. It also highlights a lot of my problems with the way Race sometimes worked from underneath as basically a TOTAL bitch, to the point where you are wondering why the guy is champ. I'd argue that Flair never does that, even in matches where he's giving the challenger 75%+ of the offense. The match is on dailymotion by the way: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xh60w1_bo...race-pt-1_sport

Just about to record Titans, but as a sneak peak I'm fucking pissed off at the atrocity that is Backlund vs Race. Wrestling matches don't annoy me very often, this one did. Bob Backlund vs. Harley Race: Unification Match (9/22/80) - MSG Strong heel reaction to Race. Backlund very over with the crowd. The idea that he wasn't over is obviously not true. Headlock city from Backlund to start. Thesz press! Big bodyslam. Headlock takeover. All Backlund so far, 5.30. Bridges up and then back down into the headlock. 10:00 still got the headlock on. He is really wrenching on it. Race kicks the mat a lot. But it's still just a fucking headlock. Transition is threatended as Race goes to the eyes and tries a gutwrench but it is reversed and then Backlund slams him big. Another headlock takeover now and back into the headlock. Backlund misses an elbow, Race goes for the headbutt. Misses. Fuck's sake. 13 mins now. Race goes for a series of nearfalls. Backlund stays on the headlock despite that. PAUCITY OF IMAGINATION. Keeps it on upright. 16mins. Couple of knees and is that our transition? No, he goes for a suplex and can't hit it, Backlund reverses and just to say "fuck you" does a delayed one instead. Backlund goes, surprise, surprise, back to the headlock. NO IMAGINATION AT ALL. 18 minutes. Starting to think we won't actually see a transition at this stage. Race goes for a belly-to-back, Backlund reverses it into a German. Headlock takeover into ... a fucking headlock. Wrenching and wrenching and wrenching now. The psychology of this match is totally retarded. Backlund stays on top for the entirety of the match, KILLING Race who can't even get a single transitional move in. No control segment. FINALLY at 22 minutes Race gets in a back suplex. Top rope. Slammed off. He was on top for all for 25 seconds there. AND Backlund no sold the suplex. Atomic drop now. Race rolls out of the ring. Fuck this match. Stupid, idiotic and backwards psychology. Do we need 20 minutes to establish that: 1. Backlund is superman and has no vulnerabilities whatsoever. 2. Race is weak as a kitten and even if he gets some offense in, it has no effect any way. It's like watching Superman fight The Riddler here. Fucking pathetic. Is the intention to bury the NWA and its champion? Race gets in an eye rake and a knee drop now. ONE COUNT. Barely a one count. Race now hits a piledriver. Diving headbutt. At least this has slowed the superman. Snapmare. Diving headbutt. Alright! 24 minutes in and we have a control segment for race. Piledriver?? No. Backlund reverses. Well that lasted all of 2 minutes and now Backlund KILLS Race with his own Zangief piledriver. 2 count. Race barely kicks out. So what was the story of that little bit? Backlund's piledriver is better than Race's. Backlund is better than Race. Backlund has Race's number. Race can't actually hurt Backlund. Race goes to the second rope now and misses his umpteenth diving headbutt. Takes a big bump to the outside. Backlund hits a massive butterfly suplex now. Action goes outside the ring. Race gets in a few punches on the floor. Arnold Skaaland complains to the ref. At least he stayed at ringside tonight. Another jab by Race now and Backlund tumbles over the top rope back into the ring. But OF COURSE, this doesn't give us our next section of offense for Race because Backlund promptly plants his head into the steel post and Race falls back down outside the ring. We get it! Race sucks. Backlund rules. Nothing Race can do will affect Backlund in anyway! Race is busted open now. Swinging neckbreaker by Backlund -- hey, at least he's finding a second way to work on that neck! Gutwrench suplex by Backlund. Sleeperhold now. The crowd is pretty wild. Race is bloodied. Destroyed. Fading. Ref falls over. Then gets up and raises Backlund's hand. Backlund jumps up and down. The crowd is crazy. We wait for an official announcement. Finkel: 35 minutes 45 seconds, the ref has DQ'd Harley Race. Why? What for? Oh fuck this shit, I fucking hated this match. It's offensive to me as a fan. The most idiotically worked match I've ever seen. -***

Could the WWE Network actually lead to wrestling becoming popular again? Just stumbled on someone asking this, and I thought it was an interesting question to ponder. The general feeling seems to be that the fact it is actually more expensive than Netflix creates too high an entry barrier for non-fans. On the flip-side, a casual Wrestlemania buyer might work out that they can get 6-months worth of wrestling for the same price as 3 hours, making it a no-brainer. Question is though: how do you grow beyond the existing fanbase with that?

Even I'd get the network and I probably wouldn't even watch any current product on there. The convenience of having all that stuff there alone would be good and it would free up a grand total of 271GB of data from my hard drive -- that's just WCW PPVs, Clashes, SNME and some WWF PPVs.

I thought Brad really brought it on this, I agree Pete. Pleasure to talk to.

It is awesome. However over the Xmas period I discovered the GOAT show: . I watched every last scrap of it available on youtube and many good times were had. I recommend it. Ok, ok, I'm leaving. Back to WWE Network discussion.

Don't want to take this off on too much of a tangent, but I have to take all that with a pinch of salt. I read a lot about "TNA's great fans in the UK", but have you seen what else outdraws RAW on Challenge? Re-runs of Bullseye from the 1980s and old episode of Catchphrase. For our friends across the pond, here's what else outdraws RAW. If it's not obvious from those pics, 25-year old game shows. Unless we're arguing that 100,000 people+ are going out of their way to catch these old shows every week, then it suggests to me that that is roughly the number of people who leave challenge on "for at least 3 minutes" while they have a dump or make a cup of tea or something on average across the week at any given time.

We never got WWE classics on demand. PPVs were "free to air" for YEARS. Money on the table.

I refuse to believe that UK will get WWE network until I actually see it.

Dylan, if you ever want to do a show in which I list guys and you tell me why they are better than HHH, you know my skype handle!