JerryvonKramer

After the Bowie and Dylan album guides, I wanted to write something on the Wu-Tang Clan. Four months later, here is part 1. I've tried to write it for people who aren't into hip-hop at all to help them understand it better. Part 2 will cover the albums. http://placetobenation.com/parvs-guide-to-the-wu-tang-clan-part-1/ Had some PMs of interest about this so thought I'd share here.

Believe it or not I had a little voice in the back of my head telling me this. I even wrote it in my notes. In a rare glimpse behind the curtain, here is a screen shot of my notes: I didn't get a chance to look this up before recording and then during the show I sort of ruled out the idea of Perez being the WCCW champ in my mind as being preposterous. Texas is kind of a blind spot for me.

Agreed

All this just says "Flair was a better worker than Bret" to me, which I consider to be pretty much self-evident.

I've become a lot less closeted in the past year or so because 1. wrestling is so far off most people's radars here that it might as well be "I'm into origami" for how much anyone cares and 2. I reckon most people who know me just chalk it up as "just another eccentricity" any way.

Recommend to merge this with other thread since I think this is the flipside of the same convo. The good and bad define each other. I didn't see this when making my last post, but here you go:

Things that I like in wrestling: - characters and great character work, and consistency in character work - awesome promos - angles that suck you in through the above - compelling stories in the ring, preferrably that build on the above - bumping and selling, I appreciate it when workers show vulnerability and make the other worker look good - consistency in selling an injury - heatedness and intensity - blood and brutality - structure, in particular breaking it down and analysing it - suplexes / bombs -- but not in a vacuum, they have to be built to within the overall structure - logical follow-up moves - a hot crowd Things I hate: - spottiness for its own sake - bad acting - fake epicness or drama - spots that seem overly stylised or choregraphed - long and boring matwork spots - workers who are selfish / don't sell as much as they should for opponents - a smart-ass indie crowd There may be one or two other things that have escaped my mind but that sums it up for me I think.

How about #no of carry jobs or #ability to lay out a match on a grided map, or any of the other things some of the Bret advocates have tried pulling out of their asses? Sorry, but the sheer laziness of some of these arguments does piss me off. Especially when there's a 20+ page thread in which Loss, myself and others have laid out exactly why Flair is great, pointed to specific matches and done all that work only for someone like Blazer to come in as if none of it happened pointing to an In Your House match from 1995 as evidence of anything. Nevermind, I'll go back to pretending this thread doesn't exist. Would love it to be locked and archived.

It's also fairly clear that your "moveset" argument is based mainly on limited older Flair since I think Flair demonstrably used a wider range of moves than Bret. What is cool about Flair if you watch ENOUGH of him is that his arsenal is incredibly deep, but he only busts certain moves out once in a while. Every match you'll get: Snap mare, knee drop, chop block, shinbreaker, vertical or delayed vertical. But sometimes you'll get ... The double under-arm / butterfly suplex is often reserved for special occassions. He has a gutwrench we don't see every match. He has a piledriver he doesn't always use. He does a gutwrench, a german, a backbreaker -- but we might not see them for 5-10 matches. I think Bret stuck to a narrower range of moves and didn't have this "deep arsenal". Though I'd be interested to see if someone could prove that wrong. I've seen dozens upon dozens of Flair matches now and he still occassionally surprises me with something I've not seen before. I bet if you dug into late 70s Flair, there'd be even more MOVEZ in there.

Oh FFS, get a clue. Watch the entire 1980s. Now tell me Bret could have had a decade like that. Watch 1985. Now tell me Bret could have had a year like that. I hate this thread. Flair has so many carry jobs it is unreal. The fact that you've made this post reveals simply that you either don't know about them or haven't seen them.

I would love to see Matt D breakdown that Denucci vs. Scicluna match, lol!

Hmmm, Austin could be good you are right. And I can see the case for DDP, would be an emotional one. What's Sam Houston doing these days and what sort of relationship does he have with Jake?

Why's that?

I don't know, they both have that Mid-South connection, both have strong ties to Texas and the Funks, both second generation, both have Christian conversions (real or fake) and a high-profile feud in WWF He'd work in many ways for Jake. Who's a better candidate?

Have they ever gone to break in the middle of a 20-minute HHH promo?

Didn't they also do it in Crockett, Charles? I think there's a good kayfabe rationale for it: why would a match just stop when you get to commercial break? And why would matches be timed to commercial breaks? That's as good as saying "this is choreographed". I think broadly, I'm not against commercial breaks in matches because it adds to the verisimilitude.

They did do commercial breaks during matches back in the SMNE days though. My mind immediately goes to Randy Savage vs. George Steele.

Before reading this my knee-jerk answer was "any time Flair tricks Sting". The ultimate time for me is in 1995. “You swerve me Flair and I’ll leave you for dead.” Sting could SEE it coming. Everyone could see it coming. Flair was like "no, this time, THIS time I'm legit". Then he goes and reforms the Horseman with Arn and Pillman when Sting and Flair were tagging and the 3 of them turn on him. Probably my all time favourite swerve because it's so inevitable and funny. EDIT: And now reading the thread I can see others have picked this one out too

Here is an excellent example of a KM thread: http://www.infinitecore.ca/superstar/index.php?threadid=81883 I was just reading this. There's something about that place I kinda love. It's so ... I dunno. I imagine the members sitting quietly reading newspapers in a library and then one of them comes in with a wrestling card from 1968 and they all get mildly excited about it, briefly.

http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-59-1990-tv-and-end-of-year-awards/ Chad and Parv finish off the year that was 1990 in WCW with reviewing 10 tv matches throughout the year and doing the end of year awards. On this show: - [08:00] Reviewing ten matches televised from WCW throughout 1990. Match listing is as follows: Ric Flair vs. Bobby Eaton (Main Event 1/7/90) Arn Anderson vs. The Great Muta (Power Hour 1/12/90) Ric Flair, Arn Anderson & Sting vs. Buzz Sawyer, Dragon Master & Great Muta (Power Hour 1/26/90) Rock & Roll Express vs. Ric Flair & Arn Anderson (Main Event 2/18/90) Midnight Express vs. Brian Pillman & Tom Zenk (WCWSN 3/10/90) Ric Flair vs. Ricky Morton (WWW 3/24/90) Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger (WWW 5/5/90) Rick & Scott Steiner vs. Midnight Express (WCWSN 10/13/90) Ric Flair vs. Buddy Landell (Power Hour 11/23/90) Arn Anderson vs. Tom Zenk (WCWSN 12/29/90) - [01:22:40] End of show awards for the year of 1990 in WCW and discussion. Awards discussed are The Total Billy Graham Award for worst wrestler, Best Feud, Best Show, Worst Show, Best Tag Team, Best Face, Best Heel, Top 5 matches and Top 5 wrestlers (plus the Ric Flair Award for Best Wrestler) The PWO-PTBN Podcast Network features great shows you can find right here at Place to Be Nation. By subscribing on iTunes or SoundCloud, you’ll have access to new episodes, bonus content, as well as a complete archive of: Where the Big Boys Play, Titans of Wrestling, Pro-Wrestling Super-Show, Good Will Wrestling, and Wrestling With the Past.

Had to watch this too. This is one of the most courageous jobs ever done by a worker right here: Slaughter's willingness to do this is just sheer balls and the heat is off the charts.

Just couldn't resist taking a little look at this on my way to another match. This shit right here is one of the darkest angles the WWF would ever run. DiBiase doesn't just want to own Virgil, he wants to humilate him. It's pretty fucked up and one of the great angles of DiBiase's WWF run.

Kayfabe Memories is the weirdest board. They have threads on really really specific things, obscure, old things. Which is great. Unfortunately, no one ever ... like, talks there. And when they do the quality of conversation is very low. "Remember Arn Anderson, he was great" "Yeah" -- that sort of level. It's mostly people checking dates and asking stupidly specific questions about tiny things. I must admit I browse there all the time and it can be a great resource. Often imagine the average age of users at KM is people in their mid-50s or older. I also read Wrestling Classics on occassion, but have never had my account validated there. Don't bother with any other fora.

Insomnia can be a real bitch sometimes. New Japan 2.9 Tiger Mask & Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Pete Roberts & El Solitario (9/4/81) Ok, I hated Pete Roberts in his appearance on the All Japan set and I've not liked Tiger Mask on this one so this one is not promising on paper for me. El Solitario's "bandit" mask is laugh out loud ridiculous. Batman 66 levels. Fujinami is either really sweaty or covered in baby oil. Thought Tiger Mask was really botch-y and awkward yet again. The guy just isn't very smooth. The gutwrench suplex by Roberts on him looked horrible. I still don't really understand what anyone sees in Roberts: exceptionally dull worker, sub-Dory Jr levels for me -- Dory has a sweeter uppercut and better executed snapmares. I will give Roberts this though: he does the Barry Windham-style suplex-rolled-over-into-a-pin, which I've always thought is a swank move. Heels seemed like whipping boys here to me. Some decent action but very underwhelmed by Tiger Mask and still think Roberts sucks. **1/2 New Japan 2.10 Andre the Giant vs. Stan Hansen (9/23/81) Andre comes out with Arnold Skaaland and seems to be in dick heel mode shoving off fans trying to touch him. Japanese crowd must have been fucking psyched for this. Andre telling the Japanese fans to shut up is awesome. He's working a lot harder here than he was in New York around this time. Andre targetting the lariat arm was interesting because it suggests he fears it. Was also a great that he busted out a suplex. This is the most motivated, technically sound and brutal that I've ever seen Andre. Some fantastic little touches too: for example, grabbing hold of Hansen's arm from an elbow drop. I can't recall seeing that spot ever before. Also interesting that Hansen was kind of in the role of plucky underdog babyface here, which is an extremely untypical context for him. I marked for Andre hitting the lariat on the ref! This was all kinds of awesome. ****3/4 New Japan 2.11 Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Isamu Teranishi (10/8/81) Teranishi has a classic look about him, which I like. Some very good solid work here. It's going to be hard to see anyone even coming close to Fujinami for MVP of this set if the first twenty-two months are anything to go by. I really liked Teranishi's left, left, right jab combos. COOL backbreaker too. This was stiff, great strikes, great high spots, awesome finish. Loved this one. Great match! ****1/2 New Japan 2.12 Tiger Mask & Kengo Kimura vs. Negro Navarro & El Signo (10/30/81) Already at the point where I'm actively not looking forward to matches involving Tiger Mask. However, fuck that for a moment: LOOK AT KIMURA'S HAIR! Ha ha, that's amazing. El Signo reminds me of someone. Hmmm, oh yeah, this guy: "Awwww, Irish Coffeee". This one was pretty good. The Mexicans just decked the shit out of Kimura and then Tiger Mask working sort of double heat. Their double teaming was all nasty-looking. Navarro smashing Kimura's head into the mat over and over again, for example, was just plain violent. Navarro in particular here looked like a great worker. ****