JerryvonKramer

Amazing Brian! Thanks.

I've seen this it's pretty awesome. In fact, I think they had a few bidding wars in the 85-9 period. I love it whenever your get the whole rogues gallery together in WWF. Savage's coronation is another time it happens.

It's a damn fun read. That's where one gets into (i) what's the overall objective, and (ii) what are the general criteria of the Levels/Tiers. Bill's was Hall of Fame caliber talent. So we can take a guy like Michael Cooper or Derek Fisher (to name a pair of Laker Dynasty supporting players) and go, "Is he even at the Level 1 level?" and when the answer is "No", then just move onto someone else. In wrestling, let's say Marty Jannetty. He had a career. In some good matches. But in the end, the closest he'd get to any wrestling HOF is buying a ticket to it. So if the overall objective is HOF level wrestlers, by whatever criteria, then you're chopping off a whole bunch of the guys who don't warrant any thought beyond "no". But if the point is to come up with a Pyramid where Everyone fits onto one level or another, and you really want to figure out where Sid fits into it... then that's something to hash out on the Overall Objective: slot Everyone, or Slot folks above a certain level (strictly HOF, or "near-HOF" as the base level, etc). Beyond that, then it's criteria. We always have this in the GOAT discussion. The first is the most basic one: for the most part when you get in hardcore joints like this, where people are talking about when they say GOAT is "work" either as 100% or as an overwhelming majority of it. How do we know this? Go back to the first page, do a little Ctrl+F, type in Hogan, hit enter. Then got to page 2 and do the same thing. Then to page 3. How many times did you find a match? Naoki Sano shows up more times in the thread than Hulk. That tends to indicate that all the non-work criteria that make Hogan a GOAT candidate count for 0.00%. Which is fine if it's a work thingy. But if you look at Ditch's recent post on Tenryu as a GOAT candidate, those first 3 out of the 4 things that Ditch listed are kinda-sorta Hogan things. Then there's the Great Matches one, which isn't a Hogan thing (even for those of us who find him perfectly acceptable). Then there's probably a half dozen other things we could think up in 30 minutes, at least two of which probably would be pretty major for a GOAT... If it wasn't based 95% to 100% on Work. So those kind of the things to hit first. Then it's taking a swing at what types of things are we looking at in each different level/tier. I like this post a good deal. I do wonder if people don't go in for "total package" lists more because they are a bit boring and would always lead to the same "Hogan, Austin, Rock, Flair" list? I dunno. What happened to the trademark "John" sign off though? ----- Later today I'm going to work out my own tiers. I often feel like I still need to see more stuff when taking part in these sorts of threads. I worry about my blind spots (Memphis, 90s All Japan, anything WWE since 2005).

I just want to point out that I was never having a go at Butch or guys like James or Johnny Sorrow who take the approach of "I like what I like that that's all there is to it". It's a perfectly valid position that has been adopted by various people across the ages. It's one position. I wasn't attacking it or those who adopt it. It's not an approach I take myself. I don't believe that subjectivity is magic. I don't believe that people like things in a vacuum and that their reasons for liking things are random or arbitrary: they probably have a criteria even though it might be vague, hidden or not thought through. I believe that people tend to have similar criteria to each other, that they influence each other more than anyone would care to admit, and that as a result of this you get consensus. It's not consensus formed from lots of people's random "subjectivity" with different sets of criteria all coincidentally flowing in the same direction, it's consensus formed from lots of people using a similar criteria. This is another position. Outside of this board, I have an interest in how consensus forms and changes over time. I'm also interested in some other things, like ossification -- when a give set of fans form a hard crust around a certain group of "holy" texts against which all subsequent texts are judged -- think of Rolling Stone and the albums of the 1960s. This even started to happen in wrestling (think Tiger Mask vs. Dynamite or the Holy Trinity of Flair-Steamboat). Anyway, all I wanted to say is that I often feel like guys who adopt the first position feel perfectly okay jumping in and attacking people who gravitate towards the second position ("It's not that complicated Tonto, you like what you like, you're over-thinking it, if the crowd pops they've done something right", etc. etc.) but then don't like it if anything comes back in the other direction. That's not a very fair playing field. We don't have to be on the same page or agree on our approaches. Fine. Let's agree that while you might have a preference for a certain approach, that doesn't make someone else's approach wrong, or worse, or whatever. There's no need to attack guys on the analytical end who want to try to think through their positions.

Can't believe you boys tracked down Keith himself. This should be fun.

This is what I mean Kris, he's working them, those fans are getting worked like the proper marks that they are. If they were that pissed off, they'd stop watching. I can't think of any criteria by which those fans are not getting properly worked old-school style.

When I mentioned "trouble" in the Heenan Family earlier, it got me thinking about Survivor Series 89 and just how amazing Arn, Haku and Heenan are in that match given the circumstances with Tully. I was thinking: is this the best example of a group of guys just staying completely pro and pulling out a great performance to salvage a match, despite last-minute changes of plan? What other examples are there?

But, of course, this is where the Texas-based oil baron Gary Hart spotted his opportunity. Plugging himself into the vacuum left by the Yamazaki Corporation and picking up some of that lucrative Japanese green while opening the door to his own guys (Funk, Slater, Sawyer).

Was thinking a bit about Cena earlier because I remain convinced that the fans who really hate him have been worked to the max by WWE since about 2006. To the max. Where things become a bit strange with Cena is that the people who hate him fail to draw a distinction between not liking the man and giving him his due as a worker. My view is that this is just an evolution of kayfabe -- these are fans who think they are smart are actually getting worked very successfully. The WWE have been really clever at this, they've turned the fact that the business has been exposed back into a work itself somehow. So a "smart" perspective like "Cena can't work" becomes a marketing tool in itself. Do you know they are selling anti-Cena T-shirts and merch now? They never even sold anti-heel merch back in the day.

Trying to find more information on this and his obit in The Independent has this: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/giant-ha...er-1188624.html "Hollywood friend"??

It depends on the manager doesn't it. The Natural Disasters sacked Jimmy Hart when they thought he was concentrating on Money Inc. too much. You seldom get the impression that JJ Dillon is the BOSS of the Four Horsemen. Heenan always plays it like he's possibly taking his charges for a ride, like he's a sly wheeler dealer who'd sell them down the river if a better offer came along. Whenever there was "trouble" in the Heenan Family, he'd do a great job of playing up this subtle dynamic. That undercurrent of distrust is what made Heenan so amazing in WWF. I don't believe it's there when he's managing Bock, at least from what I've seen, he plays it a bit differently. Bock's his man and he'll do everything he must for him. Heenan went into that mode for Flair in 91-2 too.

What I'm wondering about is where or when Hogan or Sullivan could have possibly seen him. He worked stints for Stampede in the 70s and early 80s, as seen here: But I don't know of him ever working in US before the WCW run. I also don't know of Hogan working in Canada before he was WWF champ. Did Sullivan ever work for Stampede? Right now I'm inclined to believe that the line about Hogan and Sullivan is BS.

To be fair, Haystacks was MASSIVE. Probably bigger than Vader in terms of height and weight. This is going back and few years and it is vague, but I seem to recall that it was Hogan himself and Kevin Sullivan who thought of bringing in Haystacks after they'd seen him against Andre in Canada back in the 1970s. I'm pretty sure he was semi- or actually fully retired in 1996.

Oh, looks like you are right, my file is 5.33 too. Dylan is cursed.

genuine lol

- Fuji didn't really care about Crush, but merely used him as backup for his main charge Yokozuna, someone to keep the likes of Savage at bay. - And finally, I've just remembered this, Fuji's day in the sun as a manager is Royal Rumble 94 in the casket match. That's the one time literally everything comes together for him!

This thread is pretty awesome. I like this idea. Based on your criteria, Mr. Fuji seems like he made all his mistakes early: - Allowing key assets to go to other managers (Neidhart lost to Hart, Warlord to Slick, Barbarian to Heenan) - Backing the wrong horse (Powers of Pain over Demolition, Orient Express over Powers of Pain) - Allowing himself to be booked into matches in which the titles were on the line (WM5) - Misuse of foreign object (FREQUENT) - Poor timing on reuniting with former charges (see Demolition in 90) - Poor talent acquisition (The Bezerker) This was Fuji gaining experience, making mistakes and learning from them. So in 1992, he pares down and concentrates on just one client: Yokozuna Not only that: - Brings in top help from an expert consultant (Cornette) - Gets Yokozuna bookings against top wrestlers and into title matches - For KOTR after miscuing with his cane for so many years, he OUTSOURCED the task to a paid specialist (the dodgy camera man) - Ensured that Luger never got a pinfall on his client, Summerslam 93 was all about Fuji's tactical planning - Provided lots of rice for his client Fuji learned his lessons.

Weird, I have it on my iPod and listened to the first 10 minutes this morning. Stopped though because I need watch Summerslam still.

I've always wanted to know what Hercules's contract looked like when Dibiase "bought" him as a slave. Did he have a legal status of a slave? Was Ted in contravenance of anti-slavery laws passed by Lincoln? The Million Dollar Man played fast and loose with the contract rules. Did Virgil have an official manager's license? Did he ever formally sell Andre's contract back to Heenan? What was the paperwork involved in his purchase of Saphire?

How about Loch Ness?

Well I talk like this all the time. Just who I am.

I didn't say that. There is no value judgement in what I've said.

Not only that Loss, I can't be bothered to re-register for DVDR

Was wondering if we could get a PWO-based mirror of the DVDR 80s Project for the new Lucha set and beyond? Also, would be nice to have a place to stick my Mid-South, New Japan and Memphis watch-throughs when I get to them. Any thoughts?

Subjective, yes, but not in a vacuum. Your subjectivity is not some magic autonomous force completely free of the world, it's formed and informed. Someone's taste for sweet foods, for example, is hardly unique. Just so happens most other people like those same sweet foods too. People are not so different from each other. If they were, there'd be no consensus. Just because people like things or dislike things and haven't thought through the reasons ("just because"), does not mean there are no reasons. And naturally, it's easier not to think about them and not to make any effort to explain them than to do so. I agree with this, and it's what I was saying that "two different types of good" are very difficult to compare. And I wonder if the question of "who is best" out of two more or less equally good guys is actually not a very interesting question, because it can have no answer. All I was saying is that the tiers are easier to do than answering the question "Funk or Flair?".