JerryvonKramer

Slaughter vs. DeBeers Looking forward to this. Feel like these two guys have been away for a while. Great bump onto the helmet by DeBeers. Some interesting helmet-based offence here, including some headbutts which DeBeers sells as if cannonballs were smashing his skull. Cobra Clutch! And that's it. Adnan is back! Slaughter gets him into Cobra Clutch. IRON SHEIK! He takes out a ref. Interesting to think these three guys would be maineventing Summerslam in a couple of years. Didn't quite deliver on what I was hoping for, but what there was of it was quite good. C+

It's Gareeee Mich-aellll Cappppeettttaa Cactus Jack Manson & The Rock n Roll RPM's vs. Chavo, Hector, & Mando Guerrero RPMs are some real scrub-type guys to be a on a big PPV. Woeful strikes by Manson. Mando with some terrific replies. I have become a Mando mark with these couple of matches. Chavo is getting on in years here. Mando with a great grapevine-type move here. Real nutty stuff now with the Gurreros piling on for triple covers. Very briend FIP segment with Chavo before Hector comes in with the flip and flashy dropkicks. Moonsault by Chavo. Okay for what it was. C-

Wahoo vs. Manny, with a proper camera this time Stiff chop suey once again. Wahoo has worked these matches with Manny from underneath, which is interesting because he worked on top vs. Curt. He takes over after a while to work on Manny's fingers. Then moves over to the arm. I am not sure how great a lot of this matwork is, some of it is bordering on being resthold-y. That's the story of this match: lacklustre matwork, MASSIVE strikes - rinse, repeat. Wahoo has got colour now and the slugfest portions of this are really great. Double countout, which is disappointing. Some great stiff meaty action here, but it's a little meandering, and the matwork -- aside from the early stuff with the fingers -- smacks of the two guys getting their breath. Not a top 20 contender. B+

Cool Curt looking very serious vs. Jerry Lawler The crowd seems to consist mainly of empty chairs by this stage. That's got to be it now, there's no way back from this for them. Hennig's trunks at this time are quite interesting. Huge amount of stalling here again. Great elbow from Lawler. This has been rather slow for me so far. Hennig punches Lawler when he's out on the apron and he falls back -- big bump to the concrete floor. Suplex back in. Abdominal stretch. Neckbreaker. Lawler starts making his comeback. I think Hennig in this heel run is the best Hennig I've seen - that's his peak right there 87-8. I am much much less high on this than everyone on the podcast. It's not really my pace, and I'm not seeing what's so great about it. If someone can explain to me why this is so great, then -- as with that Curt vs. Hansen match -- I'll reconsider it. As it is though: B

I'm simply not interested in another ding dong with you John, not now or for the rest of my life. You're right, you were always right, and you're the most right there ever will be. I can't compete with that. --------- On your Ted point, do we know for sure that Vince didn't approach him? DiBiase was known for being fiercely loyal to Watts and only left the company when he sold it. He had an agreement to go on the All Japan tours, but always on the understanding he was going back to MidSouth. I would be very surprised if Vince didn't make some approach in 1985-6, likely Ted said no. I can't recall if he ever mentions it in interviews or in his book.

Wahoo vs. Manny, handheld This was really an AWA show? Bloody hell, there can't be more than 40 people there. I think there were more people at those UK indy shows I went to earlier this year. Motion-cam is making me giddy. Holy stiffness in this one. I wonder if these kids got free comps to go to this. A lot of cool chop suey to the finish. This was fun to see, but nothing more than that. D+

Greg vs. Curt Very enjoyable first 10 minute match. I don't think Greg's drop off was as big as has been made out, he's had some good performances in 88. I like this for what it was. B-

Where poor means "didn't have exactly the same interpretation as jdw and is willing to entertain external factors as something that might put a company out of business". [cue: a long, pedantic, tedious, joyless post from you now trying to demonstrate point-by-point what an idiot I am by way of Ivan Koloff or whatever. I do hope you aren't that predictable]. But like I've already said, pedantic point scoring shouldn't be the name of the game here or in any other thread. You've descended into ad hominem attacks now in a bid to try to gain leverage for your position on a hypothetical Sting run in WWF. Has it come that? Not much fun discussing things with you.

Manny Fernandez, Teijho Khan & Soldat Ustinov vs. Robert Gibson & The Top Guns Random city here. Who is Ustinov? Khan I remember from the Crockett Cup. This is some scraping the barrel shit in terms of star power. Manny Fernandez has an interesting look in 1988. From afar you wouldn't know it was him. Did he get Wayne-Rooney-style hair implants? Looks more like Hercules here. Cool fistdrop from Khan. Some cool spots from Manny. This was pretty fun. B

Point is John that your style of argumentation is such that you do what it takes to push through a point. Where you're arguing against Sting's inclusion into the HoF you look at the data and use it to show how Sting wasn't a draw. Here you are arguing for your idea of Sting being a megastar in WWF and you look at that same data and I quote: "He got over in a weeker promotion and sustained it for close to a decade." In one argument you use it to show how he's not HoF worthy, in another you argue that he was the force keeping the company alive. I'm not going to accuse you of bad faith. I just think you do what most people do naturally -- you have an intution about something and then you reach for reasoning. But knock yourself, get pissed off at me, argue till you're blue in the face until you can demonstrate to the world that you were somehow 100% right in both arguments, or whatever else it is that you want to do. 2013 hasn't exactly been a marquee year for JvK-jdw relations. I'll just try to keep out of your way.

What happened with this ep? Where are all the comments? Even Matt D and Soup haven't said anything. Mando vs. Pat Tanaka w/ DDP poncing about Mando is doing a lot of odd dance moves at the start of this. What the hell is this? Is that matador moves? This kick thing out of the test of strength is AWESOME. Mando in 2 minute has just jumped up in my estimation massively. Hilarious. This guy is different. This sort of weird-ass matwork is something I can get into. Tanaka is a great execution guy, a lot of his stuff has been cool in this match. Awesome comeback from Mando. I like this chap. Surfoard and Diamond comes in to break it for the DQ and heel beatdown. This was super duper fun and without being able to see other people's thoughts, I'd guess I'm higher on it than most, possible top 30 finish. B+

For what it's worth the best Brody match I've seen was vs. Dory, and the best Dory performance I've seen was that same match. Can't remember which one it was out of these: Bruiser Brody vs. Dory Funk Jr. (10/9/81) Bruiser Brody vs. Dory Funk Jr. (4/21/82) Pretty sure it was the second one. A very rare match in which Brody sells and Dory shows real fire. It's part of the angle where Brody does something to hurt Terry and Dory is fighting for his brother's honour.

Last two matches. Couldn't do my usual stream-of-consciousness because I was eating my dinner. The Nasty Boys vs. Rock n Roll Express Not a lot to write home about here, but this was marginally better than the Badd Company vs. Rockers match because 1. more going on, 2. some insane Morton bumps, 3. Saggs bleeding from mouth. C+ Jerry Lawler & Greg Gagne vs. Riki Choshu & Mr. Saito Combination of awesome cool combination and novelty factor, cool offense from the heels, the effectiveness of Lawler as FIP and the kickassery of Saito puts this ahead of most of the other matches in this grouping of 8. This is a very interesting time for the promotion. Clearly they are down and out and hanging on by a thread, but the weird combinations of guys is keeping this super fun. B

Some key acquisitions now for where I want this angle to go. These guys shouldn't be that hard to get: Chris Markoff (seen on the left here) Boris Malenko and Ed Wiskowski I will reveal what the plans are for these three a little later on, but they need to be signed on now ready. February - Week 2 Video package playing overlayed with still images from Ivan's career. Every once in a while overlay a ring announcer saying things like: "And the winner of the match, and NEW Television champion, Ivan Koloff!" "... And new WORLD champion, Ivan Koloff!" It should have a strong retrospective feel.

February - Week 1 Ivan is seen sitting backstage reading a copy of One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn. He looks troubled. Later that night ... Ivan Koloff vs. Joe Lightfoot Ivan is standing in the ring as the ring announcer starts to introduce him. "... and his opponent, weighing in at 298lb, THE RUSSIAN BEAR ..." Ivan goes crazy and charges the ring announcer -- who for this match is former Assassin #1 Tom Renesto -- grabs the mic and smashes him over the head with it. He starts stomping on him in a rage. He's really kicking the crap out of him. Lightfoot goes to intervene. Sickle! Referees Scrappy McGowen and Ronnie West try to restrain him. He pushes them back. Freddie Miller and Gordon Solie: "Ivan Koloff sure has been acting strangely recently, but this is an outrage! There should be fines and suspensions" [etc] Eventually a pile of wrestlers hit the ring to try to restrain Ivan who seems to have completely lost it.

January - Week 2 Ivan Koloff vs. Brad Armstrong Ivan comes out looking very tentative and pensive. It is clear that there is something heavy weighing on his mind. During the match Armstrong gains the upperhand until there's a ref bump and in desperation Ivan grabs the chain for the cheap win. He shakes his head. He didn't want to win this way, but it's the only way he could win against a young up and comer like Armstrong. The commentators put this narrative over strong. January - Week 3 Vignette: Shopping with Ivan Koloff Ivan is out doing his grocery shopping with The Iron Sheik and Ole Anderson. He is working down the tinned goods aisle when he stops, grabs a tin of peas and studies it. Ivan: Comrades, see this can of peas here. This can of peas was ... Iron Sheik: Iran, namber 1! Ivan: ... made in America ... Iron Sheik: I break the backs of Imerica, make it hamble! Ivan: These peas ... only $0.36 to buy. Ole: That, my man, is called CAPITALISM. You see those prices are kept down by the free market, by consumer power ... it's a very efficient system. Ivan: Only 36 cents ... Ivan looks disheartened. He opens up his wallet to take out a photo and looks at it. He closes his eyes and looks rueful. Ole: Come on Ivan, we need to get going. This steak won't cook itself. January - Week 4 Ivan Koloff, Ole Anderson, and The Iron Sheik vs. Tommy Rich, Paul Orndorff and Stan Hansen Ivan is even more contemplative walking down the isle. Iron Sheik has to stop and look back to see where he is twice as they are walking down. In the match the heels win control after the initial shine until Ivan tags in. He loses the advantage and the face in peril, Tommy Rich, makes a hot tag to Hansen. Hansen has Ivan on the ropes and dominates him. As his teammates, distract the ref, once again Ivan reaches for the chain. But Hansen grabs it from him and lays him out with it. But the ref spots it! DQ! Ivan is laying on the mat with his eyes open looking at the ceiling as Hansen and the faces protest with the ref and clean house.

Thanks for listening Pete. That's really interesting. Kerry surely would have been one solution to their babyface problems. Was he much of a draw outside of Texas though? On paper at least Sting / Kerry / Steiners / Road Warriors doesn't look too shabby on the face side, and that's assuming they still turn Flair. The other thing I wonder about is if they couldn't have made better use of guys who couldn't work but who could talk. Think of JYD. Whenever they've used him, he's looked exposed and fat. Why not develop something like "The Junkyard" talkshow segment? I mean they are willing to waste Terry Funk on that (who could still go). Dusty himself might have been better utilized in something like that too before he left. Using a vehicle like that, they could then build up a younger guy from the rub. Let's say JYD takes a guy like Pillman under his wing for a few months, almost use him as a sidekick on the talk segments. Then when a heel comes on and brutally attacks poor old JYD, boom there's your pretext to elevate Pillman. That would have been a smarter use of JYD than trying to use the dying embers of his name as a drawing card.

Due to a strange quirk of this particular recording, and my technical inability to figure out how to merge the tracks into a single mono one, for this show only, I'll be coming out of the left speaker and Chad out of the right. Where the Big Boys Play in STEREO like The Beatles. Where the Big Boys Play #46 – Clash of the Champions 10 Chad and Parv march bravely into the 90s with Clash of the Champions 10: Texas Shootout. In this show: - [6:21] a lengthy trawl through the Meltzer newsletters from January and February 90: AWA's days numbered on ESPN! Kendal Windham caught counterfeiting money! Mike Tyson! Pedicino gets engaged and walks! Joe Isuzu! Geraldo Rivera! Vince goes to Japan! Chad considers arguing that SMW was bigger than WCW for a while in the early 90s! Plus speculation on Meltzer's informants. - [40:20] Solie's Wrestling News Network roundup. - [45:51] Review of Clash 10 including: discussion of the Flair heel turn and booking options around that time, analysis of the lyrics of the Wrestlewar Rap, some general thoughts on Mick Foley and The Undertaker, and considering the idea of Great Muta as a face. - [1:56:10] End of show awards and listener comments.

January - Week 1 It's GCW on TBS and there is a call from the Kremlin. It's Leonid Brezhnev "Comrade Koloff ... Comrade Koloff!" "Premier Brezhnev! ... yes, comrade?" "You were once a great man Ivan. You made Moscow proud. You brought gold back to the USSR. You showed those capitalist ideologists that the Soviet Union is best, that communism works, comrade. You were many things to many people. You were ... a champion." [ivan looks tearful] "That was then, comrade. But what about now? When the babooshkas in Mother Russia are at home watching Georgia Championship Wrestling on their state-provided television sets, comrade -- what do you think they see?" [ivan makes no reply] "They see you disgrace yourself, comrade. They see you lose to this 'Paul Orndorff'. They see you get pinned by 'Dick Slater' and 'Ole Ander-son'. Who is this 'Ander-son'? He is from Sweden, no? What our your countrymen to think, comrade?" "I ... I ... I am old comrade. I am not the man I was" "NOW NOW! Do not let me hear you speak like that! Life with the bourgouis pigs make you soft, no? Make your belly fat? You watch 'Mickey Mouse' and eat burgers all day, Ivan, is that it? ENOUGH! You have six months, Ivan, six months to turn this around. I want only wins, all the time. One loss, just one, and you will be brought back home and sent to Seberia!" "NO COMRADE, noooo!" "Yes. Now, I have important matters to attend to, comrade. This vodka will not drink itself"

Ok, in order to do this, first we need a rough overview of what Ivan was upto in real life. Interestingly enough, he started 1983 working for both WWF and Georgia co-currently before working solely for WWF after April. He stays at WWF until December 1983 and almost the next day starts his run with Crockett in January 1984. Real-life Ivan started with Georgia in September 82 (joing from Mid-Atlantic), he started with WWF in February 1983, but as I mentioned, there was overlap and he saw out dates for GCW well into April. For this, I need Ivan in the NWA through the summer of 83 until Starrcade and then quickly to switch to WWF immediately after it in time to face Backlund. Some initial considerations: 1. Georgia had TV, so the plan must be to keep him there and fend off any offers from New York -- if there was a working agreement at that time, this would entail breaking it off: so be it. OR: Tell Vince of the plan, and agree to release Ivan after that. 2. That Vince still thought there was value in Ivan is not in question and in real-life 83 he was used as a perrennial challenger for Backlund. In short, the stretch from Ivan to Iron Sheik's spot is much less than the stretch between Ivan and Harley Race's spot. 3. The third consideration is NWA politics. Georgia had the TV, but not necessarily the sway to choose the champion. There needs to be some solid, convincing reasons for "Why Ivan" when Race and several other candidates are right there. The booking into the summer MUST provide that answer - an unmodified 83 Ivan isn't getting the spot. But Ivan + booking genius will produce a mainevent for Starrcade 83 that will make Meltzer weep hot tears of geek joy. 4. A final complication comes from the fact that Starrcade was chiefly a Crockett card and I've got Ivan in Georgia. Well, Flair is going to crop up on Georgia TV a lot, and this might be a way of making the card seem truly national and NWA-centred rather than just a regional Crockett supercard. They made some gestures towards doing that anyway, and Race was not a Crockett guy either, so this is not a huge stretch.

Sidepoint: coming back to the thread title, Flair always says the Horsemen would have been huge with Vince behind them.

The other point to make is that jdw is putting a lot of weight on how Warrior drew as champ vs. how much money he made in the build. He probably sold more in action figures than Sting sold in tickets. Warrior didn't draw well as champ, but some of that is surely because he didn't have any credible opponents -- when you've beaten Hogan, what's Rick Rude or DiBiase or Perfect? I think it's probably a weakness of the booking that Vince was booking to the Wrestlemania moment with no real plan seemingly beyond that. I don't really see how there are grounds for assuming that Sting would have done any better given that he pretty much bombed as WCW company ace -- and I'd warrant the drop-off was steeper than the drop during Warrior's run. We're arguing about a hypothetical here, so we'll never know one way or the other. My instincts say Sting doesn't make it beyond IC level in WWF, yours that he would have done better than Warrior. There's no real way of proving it one way or the other. We should avoid getting any further into pedantic point scoring.

Maybe it suffered from coming right behind that great match with Adonis and Orton. Wahoo vs. Curt again Much shorter match and a dissappointing end to this series for me. Can't help but feel that Wahoo is a little long-in-the-tooth for a top of the card level feud like this. To make matters worse, Curt sells a chop that misses him by a country mile. C-

Intuition cones first, reasoning follows ... "Did well" on what metric?

Jerry Lawler vs. The sauntering cool-as-fuck Curt Holy fuck what is Lawler wearing here? To keep my video game references going, he looks a bit like Wart from Mario 2. A lot of chickenshittery from Hennig to start here. Some great shots from Hennig into Lawler, who responds with a barrage of his own. Hennig bails again. He's done a lot of stalling now. Amazing guy in the crowd! This match needs to start now, enough of this stalling. Hennig thinks about a handshake. Collar-and-elbow tieup. Punch from Lawler. Fistdrop from the top. Left. Left. Right. Curt channels Bock with the King of the Mountain spot. Ridiculous Hennig bump now as he takes punch, walks across the ring and jumps OVER the top rope. Lawler gets posted. Double Countout? DQ. This match wasn't my scene at all. Some nice moments, but nothing to set my world on fire. C