JerryvonKramer

Every once in a while I hear a line of Ron Tronguard. I'm a massive commentary guy, like a MASSIVE commentary guy, even like Mooney / Alfred Hayes, but I can honestly say I don't care at all about not catching it here. Just woeful. Hennig vs. some guy Where did Dick Slater come from then? The journey we've seen Hennig take from chubby young face to this dude in the space of a few years is pretty incredible. I think this version of Hennig here in 87 is better than the Mr. Perfect incarnation from what I've seen so far. Better offense. Although I am admittedly a fan of insane Perfect bumping. Another good match to get Cool Curt over. C+

Hennig vs. Wahoo Seem to have lost my notes to the ether. Bit annoying. I liked the story of this one where the old and clearly struggling Wahoo is out muscled and thought by the young heel champ. Wahoo doesn't look like the same worker in 87 though. C+

I've seen tons of Hogan and Dusty and Garvin and never seen them pull some of the shit Shawn was doing there. The point is not that every babyface of the 80s had to be a Steamboat-style goody-two-shoes -- we've seen Bock on this very set work face with many heelish characteristics -- the point is that what Shawn was doing in that match goes way way beyond something like 84-5 Hogan "outheeling the heels". Hogan could give someone a mauling, he could use back rakes and bites and chairs and cheat and whatever else, but I'm not buying that he regularly did some of that shit Shawn was pulling in that match. Shit, even the bloody Road Warriors never went that far. And if either Hogan or the Road Warriors did have a match where they were behaving like that, I'd fully expect everyone come down on them like a ton of bricks for it.

B+ is **** I guess we have to agree to disagree on the way Shawn was working during that match. Beating the shit out of Somers is one thing, pulling him up on 2 counts, spitting in his face, pushing him over with one finger -- all those are just dick moves for me. I'm just not sure I buy the idea of a babyface in 1986 in the supposedly traditional AWA having arrogance, disrespect and hubris like that. A positive spin might be that Shawn was being progressive or subversive in some way -- my take is that it's not an appropriate performance to the role he was meant to be playing. I don't think I've ever seen a face from this era behave like that in a match, save possibly Hogan in one or two matches (and even then nowhere near to this extent) and maybe The Fantastics in that match vs. Gilbert and Simmons when they were getting booed -- but there I justify it because they were clearly heeling it up in a face vs. face encounter and were on their way out anyway (and again, nowhere near to the same extent). All-in-all, I'm in the "in between two extremes" camp. I think it's a very good, intensely worked, bloody, and at times genuinately awesome match that has some serious problems -- mainly with Shawn's performance and the way that first 10 minutes are worked (I think the structure isn't a problem in itself: see Final Conflict). In a way for me the total beating he gets from Rose and Somers in the FIP almost makes it worth it -- but then even allowing for the fact I'm lifelong heel fan, the match shouldn't be working in that way. Obviously Matt D saying "this is my 149" is completely OTT and overlooks the match's many positives, but it's got no chance of my top 10 either and I'm one of those who thinks the second cage match is better. But thanks for taking time out to outline your position, much appreciated. The debate and areas of disagreement is one of the things that makes this whole process great, and fun.

Been toying with a "Ranking the Russians" thread for a while now, but never seem to get round to making it. Also want to do a "Top 10" brawlers thread too, to see where people would put Wahoo. Wahoo McDaniel vs. Boris Zukhov I'm going to say it: Boris is a revelation for this set. Nice to see Wahoo back from Crockett. This should be good. Decent level of brutality, instant colour here. Look forward to reading Matt D's thoughts on this Pretty short. Zukhov already seems to be transitioning more into the JTTS we see in WWF. Too short and one-side to be more than: C

On Bock / Flair vs. JTTS / jobbers, I want them to be more dominant because it makes the champ seem too weak. I'm much happier in All Japan land where there's real hierarchy there. Jumbo wont even touch a jobber he's so far beneath him. Bock got literally 2 moves of offense in that match against Rheingans -- that doesn't make sense to me from a kayfabe point of view. I can buy variations on the Flair vs. Sam Houston match where the champ might underestimate a midcarder and be surprised, but there should never be any doubt about who is supreme. Hennig vs. Brutus Beefcake Petersen Loving "Cool" Curt's saunter. He's got so much charisma as a heel. Petersen looks good. Ha ha! He clotheslined the ref! Slam on the chair! Not a wrestling chair, but an actual chair. Wahoo now. This was decent, but nothing more. A nice look at Hennig as champ. C

Have you noticed the awesome old couple in the front row yet? The guy in the cowboy hat and (I assume) his wife. What I love about those two is that they never ever talk to each other.

Zybysko vs. The Man Bock vs. Larry is really the sleeper feud of this set. It's been great so far. This match had the most standard structure possible: shine / heat / finish, but the work in all three segments was really solid. Zybysko was great selling and on offense. Bock was Bock. The most satisfying of their matches for me so far and should be Top 30. B+

Zybysko vs. Greg (2) Weirdly looking forward to this. I like Greg's drop toehold into a Gagne lock, that's cool. Riddler is looking in pretty good shape here. Like Kevin Spacey in American Beauty when he starts hitting the iron. Huge amount of Zybysko stalling here. Very awkward arm drag by him on Greg. Not tremendously excited by this mat sequence. The cartwheel and headscissors was fun though. How is the Gagne lock meant to hurt when he's standing up? Larry hits a savate kicks and goes to town with a bunch of knees. Backbreaker. Enjoying this offense. Big back suplex. A good match with some bad moments. B-

On the "biting cuts" point: my view isn't that I'm against it from any logic point of view, I just don't like it because all I can think about when I see that is AIDS! Cool Curt Hennig vs. The Riddler Hennig already seems more Mr. Perfect-y selling Greg's punches. Greg's trunks are absolutely hideous. He looks like he's soiled them and then twisted them around. Don't think Greg is that bad in this match at all. His "hump" is absolutely ridiculous though. Have to say I think I much prefer Hennig as a heel. It suits his personality and his style more. Enjoyable match this. C+

Analysis of the crowd is a real highlight of these shows. Zybysko vs Stevens Really been liking Larry Z on this set and he's making this in the early going for me. Oh, as I said that the match has ended! Fun, but nowhere near the short Bock match. C-

Will is arguing in the preceding post that his stance on the match isn't just based on emotion, but on reasoning too. i.e. that he's making more than just a conviction statement. So once you take the step of reasoning something out, you have to leave conviction at the door because that's not persuading anyone (or at least not anyone who is thinking it through). I would also say that if you are going to lean on conviction statements alone, there's no point having the debate, because by their nature they leave no scope for it. It's Juror #3, the Lee J. Cobb character in 12 Angry Men. PWO, as a message board, is characterised by reasoning arguments out rather than leaning on conviction statements -- there are plenty of boards out there which are characterised mainly by conviction arguments and you end up with pages of 1 line posts ("Bret rules, HBK sucks", "HBK doesn't suck, he's the GOAT" etc. etc.).

I guess all I heard was you saying something along the lines of "I disagree with all of Matt D's points and think they are horseshit" which seems more like a conviction statement than a reasoned out one. The argument really comes down to the first 10 minutes and: 1. whether or not you think The Rockers (and Shawn in particular) were justified in working the match as dick semi-heels. 2. whether or not you agree with the idea that them basically killing Doug Somers during that sequence is structurally ass-backwards not only because the match has nowhere to go, but also because it puts Buddy Rose in the really odd position of seeming like he's making a big comeback. If you read through the threads at DVDR, it seems like most people agree with Matt D on those two points. I might have missed it, but what's the counter-argument? I've seen "they were getting their just desserts" and that's about it. There was someone at DVDR (was it Pete?) arguing that Shawn getting overconfident and then getting killed himself by the more experienced heels "makes sense" as a narrative. Is that what you think too? My view, honestly, is that Shawn comes off as a dislikable heel and made me actively want to see him get his ass handed to him. I'm not sure if "young babyface gets too cocky" is a very good narrative. If you or Johnny do, then I'd love to hear the case for it. I'm not having a go or anything, I think the level of disagreement on this match is pretty interesting. ------------------ All that said, I was thinking about this a bit more earlier, and I do have some questions for Matt D too, however. When I gave my comments on the first cage match, you'll notice most of it took the form of a comparison with Final Conflict which -- structurally -- is more or less identical to this match. 1. Long face shine sequence where one of the heels gets annihilated 2. Long FIP sequence 3. Finish Over on DVDR, one of the posters (not familiar with him "crippler" something) said that this structure, with the long extended shine, is the norm for AWA and it isn't unique to this match. The main differences with Final Conflict, as I noted, are in how the shine is worked: Steamboat and Youngblood wrestle it as if butter wouldn't melt in their lovely babyface mouths. And we don't get our first cage shot until at least 12 or 13 minutes in. The structure is the SAME though. So I have three questions: 1. Do you also hate Final Conflict? If you haven't seen it, I'd love to know what you make of that. 2. Are you equally down on all the other AWA tags that have this structure? And if not, why not? 3. How much of your dislike of this match actually comes down to the way it is worked as opposed to dissatisfaction with the logic of the structure?

Loss, I was actually planning on doing a version of this myself once I was done with AWA. I was going to just do a series of threads: JvK catches up with 80s New Japan JvK catches up with Mid South (which I've seen a lot of but will stat over) JvK catches up with 80s Memphis / Texas (yet to purchase) The format was going to be more or less a continuation of what I've been doing in the AWA podcast threads since DVDR has been down. I guess I will run these parralel to this thread so it should be fun to see comparisons. Because I took part in AWA and All Japan, I will likely just pick a promotion and go straight through, but the fact you are doing this should help spur me on. On another note: genuinely looking forward to see your comments for all these matches.

This guy officially joins Sean Mooney as a true JvK hero.

Hennig vs. The Man (again) Awesome ring announcer! Curt looks really pissed off even before the match has started. I think Curt's headlock after 10 minutes or so goes on a bit too long and is not at all worked interestingly by him. Things pick up after that with some stiff forearms by Bock and a crazy bump from Hennig. Zybysko looks so sly and sleazy at ringside. Big "Larry sucks" chant just from him sitting there. I thought this one was missing something, despite finally being the big result and is 4th of 4 for this stretch of matches. B

The return of little Matt D was very amusing during this one. Hennig vs. The Man Starting out at a much faster pace than the last two matches in this rivalry. Unusual headscissors from Bock. Although this was very high quality, I have it at least two notches below the last one because the finish felt a lot more premature. B+

Some 80s Ninjas you guys didn't mention: Shredder from the Turtles Joe Musashi from Shinobi Geki from Street Fighter 1 Ryu Hayabusa from Ninja Gaiden The ones in GI Joe Super Ninja and Zybysko vs Super Nijna and The Man Woeful ninja outfit. Reckon it's Jack Victory under there. For me the main thing about this match was that whenever it was Larry Z vs. Bock it was good, but Stevens and the Ninja generally brought it down. C-

Tonight, it's Phileas Fogg Mexican Taco Rolls style Nacho Cheese and Jalapeano with Doritos Nacho Cheese sauce tonight, and, of course, Pepsi Max and ice. Debeers vs Snuka Often hard for me to get excited for "on a pole" matches. This one is no exception. Poor match. D-

Matt D has taught me how to use google cache since they seem to have removed the option to click it straight from a search. You need this: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache: Then put the URL of the page in front of it like so: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/sear...vs-curt-hennig/ I just had a look at what would happen if I used "Save as" to desktop and by saving it as a complete .html file, you get the page and the format. This is a lot faster than copy->paste. Reckon that just one person alone could do it in a day. I guess DVDR 80s Project stuff will be going back up soon, but it'll good to know there's a viable back up if we should need it.

I love ya, man, and I know you didn't mean it this way, but that's just an insulting, condescending, pile of horseshit. Wrestling isn't supposed to be about analysis. It's supposed to about emotion. It's fun to analyze matches, it's what we all do. But when you take some sort of "higher road" when watching this shit...well...there's a reason analysis starts with anal. All I've seen from you or Will is just blanket rejection of criticism of that match. You can argue through reasoning or you can argue through conviction. I think you've argued mainly through conviction from an emotional place. Your whole philosophy for rating matches is based on emotion. You've said it time and time again. That's fine. Mine is a cominbation of lots of things including analysing structure. I don't have the same philosophy as you. Matt D is the opposite extreme. It's all good, makes for interesting debate. I've already said: Do we have to spell out each and every time "This is my opinion, you're entitled to yours and that's ok, we're all equal here let's hold hands and sing the hallelujah chorus"? Let's reason this out a second. You've said "I rate matches on emotion, screw structure". That's the point you make again and again. I say: "in this case emotion has blinded you to real flaws in this match" You say: "that's condescending and you're taking the high road" How'd you work that one out? How's it condescending? How's it taking a high road? I might say that you accusing people who think Shawn is doing anything other than getting his "just desserts" of not understanding the "kayfabe story" of the match is insulting and condscending. I don't because there's just no point doing down that road. There's no high or low road. We just disagree. I think you're wrong for X reasons, you think I'm wrong for Y reasons.

And reading the rest of the DVDR thread post-Matt D rant, quite a few other people felt the same way as me about Shawn's performance. Another guy, writing in November 2012, totally independently coming up with the same observation. There's goc There's Hales Jr. It's very interesting to see such a hard split on that opening ten minutes.

Wow, Dylan and I have super synergy on this reading the thread, to the extent where now I'm worried it kinda looks like I've deliberately copied him. I haven't. We've made exactly the same points on the two cage matches independently -- and we're two guys known for having big differences -- so there has to be something to say for that. Reading Chad's comments it seems that he's not a million miles away from thinking the same either. I'm not going to have a go at Will or anyone else for preferring the first one, I understand it, I understand why you're high on it, I just think you're riding emotion more than analysis and allowing it to blind you to some of the serious flaws in its structure (and in my view the performances, especially Shawn's). If you go through my points and Dylan's points, they are substantially the same as Matt D's points, only Matt D seems to have got carried away to the extent of giving it *. I think he overlooks how good the heel control segement is and -- if you like me just hated Shawn in the first half -- how good it felt to see him get his head kicked in during that. Matt D in that post, I think, is a case of Michael Moore syndrome: he's making valid points but pushing them a bit too far and using it (a little bit) as a crusade against a philosophy he dislikes intensely. His reading of the match though is substantially the same as mine, including the bit about the match starting so brutally that it had nowhere to go.

Gotta love spelling auto-correct. Johnny, you explaining all of that changes nothing. The Rockers were meant to be better, fine, they weren't meant to be cocky arrogant twats, which is how Shawn was playing it. I will now read the thread and Matt D's thoughts.

Disc 8 rankings A* Nick Bockwinkel vs. Curt Hennig (11/21/86) A Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (Cage Match) (1/17/87) Nick Bockwinkel vs. Curt Hennig (12/25/86) A- Nick Bockwinkel vs. Larry Zbyszko (11/27/86) Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (1/27/87) B+ Col. Debeers vs. Jerry Blackwell (Ladder Match) (11/27/86) Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (Cage Match) (12/25/86) B Leon White vs. Boris Zuhkov (2/21/87) B- Buddy Rose, Doug Somers & Sherri Martel vs. Midnight Rockers & Despina Montegues (11/27/86) C- Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Greg Gagne & Jimmy Snuka (9/20/86) Buddy Rose vs. Marty Jannetty (10/18/86)