JerryvonKramer

Need also to take shots every time: 1. He mentions Ken Patera 2. He mentions Buddy Rose 3. He mentions Crusher Blackwell 4. He mentions the High Flyers 5. He uses the phrase "legitimately shocking to me"

Of people who actually made it to main event, it's clearly Luger. Although fans of The Renegade may quibble with that.

I'm snowed under with marking here, but there is one little statement I made in my recent argument that I'd like to interrogate further: I think that idea needs to be looked at a bit more closely.

I might not be around much this weekend, so posting part 2 now as well. Where the Big Boys Play #23 - Clash of the Champions 1: Part 2 Parv and Jason Mann finish up on Clash of the Champions 1. In this episode: Parv questions the continued booking of Ivan Koloff against top babyfaces, Jason hypes the Warlord as a better worker in 2012 than he was in 1987 (based on his appearance in Chikara), discussion again of NWA-style booking of babyfaces vs. WWF-style booking, the relative merits of the fan-fake Sting and fan-fake Hogan, the life and times of the 1988 'Pet of the Year' Patty Mullen, discussion of the decision-making skills of the NWA Board of Directors, Parv voices his controversial views on Sting vs. Flair from this show, and the sensational and much-anticipated return of Sandy Scott!

Thanks again to Jason Mann for doing this show: Where the Big Boys Play #22 – Clash of the Champions 1: Part 1 Chad is away with work, but Parv welcomes Wrestlespective Radio’s Jason Mann to discuss the very first Clash of the Champions. This episode includes: Jason’s background as a wrestling fan, some random memories of the WWF Wrestlefest arcade game, Jason gives some background on the history of wrestling in the Detroit / Mid-West area, and Parv gets an education in US 1950s sitcoms, especially ‘Leave It to Beaver’, and Jason gives his thoughts on various wrestlers that Frances Crockett mentions as she runs down the top 10 teams from the upcoming Crockett Cup 88.

Oh yes, I did forget about that, Bret was undoubtedly a bigger draw internationally than Sting ... however, I'm not sure if that is something you can pin on any intrinsic qualities of Bret himself. I've always maintained that the wrestling boom hit the UK a couple of years later than it did in the US (1992 sort of time), which just so happens to be when Bret was getting his main event push -- I'd warrant the same goes for Germany. That isn't taking anything away from Bret, but it does seem like a right place, right time sort of deal. I'd prefer to see a direct comparison of WWF with Bret on top and WCW with Sting on top vs. the periods either side. I suspect it might go Bret's way, but I wonder by how much. How many more 1000s of people are coming to see a Bret main event as opposed to a Diesel or Luger one? How many more 1000s of people are coming to see a Sting main event over a Ron Simmons or Vader one? I think this wouldn't take a lot of work to show quickly. My suspicion is that it's closer than it may appear. (NB. you don't compare WCW figures with WWF figures, but WCW figures with other WCW figures and same in the other case ... the idea we can look at one guy and pin an entire company's hopes on him is a misnomer created by exceptional people like Hogan or Austin). Each other normal "mortal" main eventer is only going to affect so many people. I think in the cases of Bret and Sting we can measure that, even allowing for a Bill Watts booking run or Pat Patterson departure. --------- And Dylan, I don't think my argument is "bizarre" as you dismissively put it, I think you can see the influence of Sting on the way main event guys worked their spots. Would you say the way Jericho or Edge or any of the main stars to emerge from that generation worked was closer to Sting or to Bret? Well? I'm being serious.

Well how about you start by telling me what you think Bret has over Sting? As far as I can see Bret's main event run was late 92 to mid-93, then 94-7, which happened to coincide with a steep downturn in business. Sting's main event run was pretty much 90-2001 with some interruption circa 94-5 during Hogan's face run. So Sting spent more of his career on top than Bret. It's been well-documented that Sting was never really a top draw like a Hogan, but can you demonstrate how Bret WAS? Can you demonstrate how he was a bigger draw than Sting? Let's talk about "influence" too. Influence on who? Smart fans? Or workers? When I look at the workers who have dominated the WWE since 2001, do they appear closer to Sting or closer to Bret? Sting was a maineventer who had "the look" but who could also work a bit as well. He also was a main eventer who would telegraph his signature spots in such a way that would pop the crowd. He'd give a yell or beat his chest and hit his Stinger splash. Guys didn't do shit like that in the early 80s. Sting can be credited with popularizing "the special move" in wrestling. Look at wrestlers a generation on. Jericho, The Rock, Rey -- people of that generation. Are their showy signature spots closer to the shit that Sting did or the shit that Bret did? Well? Think about it, it's the Sting model. Sting yells and does a stinger splash, for Rock it's the people's elbow, for Jericho it's the Lionsault. Yes, I'm saying that Sting helped to get THOSE sorts of spots over in the main event. Bret was basically an oldschool technical wrestler. He didn't "influence" anyone in terms of anything you can actually see. Go through the current WWE roster and ask yourself for each guy "Sting or Bret"? Are you telling me the MAJORITY of guys are closer to Bret than to Sting? Really? I'm calling bullshit. So if he didn't draw better, and he didn't influence more people, then all you're left with is work, and work is subjective. Does Bret really have a shit ton of classic matches MORE than Sting does? Well? Come on, I'm waiting for this.

Ha ha, the evidence for Duggan being on ALF is a post I made 3 years ago, where it turned out it was Harry and the Hendersons. Sooo did I just make this up? I SWEAR I saw him on there.

Can someone explain to me what the basis of Bret Hart being in the HoF is? Well? Anyone? What did Bret Hart do that was so deserving of being in the HoF that Sting didn't other than being a smarky favourite? His candidacy is hardly riding on his work in Stampede or as one of the Hart Foundation is it, it's based on his singles run. And he was a 96 entrant so he got in even before the bulk of the heel run or Montreal, which are events that made him a "legend" in the eyes of many a casual internet fan. I'm being serious here, what has Bret got on Sting?

Show on Clash 1 coming later today, but does anyone know how the Varsity Club formed?

Am I imagining this or did Hacksaw Jim Duggan once appear in an episode of ALF? I think I saw it when I was 8 or 9, and since then have always just assumed this was a thing. However, internet searches for footage or images of this are coming up with nothing. Does my memory deceive me?

I was on the Sting side of the debate when it happened before. Scroll back for it, I have no new points to make.

How many times are we going to do the Sting argument?

I watched the Roman Polanski film Repulsion last night from 1965 and there's a little scene in which they turn the tv on and there's a wrestling match on. British commentator. It's a tag match. I think "Rebel Ray Hunter" is one of the guys mentioned. This is one of the oddest instances of pro wrestling popping up in an unexpected place I can think of. Any other takers?

The other possibility is another alternate universe scenario, but if Crockett somehow got to keep DiBiase after the UWF buyout in 87. Magnum vs. DiBiase would have been interesting too. That would certainly be a feud if he'd have gone to WWF ... in fact, I wonder what happens to Dusty's run if Magnum goes to WWF in 89.

Well Meltzer suggested it in 88: why not turn Dusty heel? Also Magnum vs. Lex Magnum vs. Tully at main event level (why not?) Magnum vs. Windham And then depending on good booking and pushing: Magnum vs. Steve Williams Magnum vs. The Barbarian Magnum vs. Big Bubba

I'm going to make a new thread for this that can be pinned. The categories will be: Information Introductory In-depth studies Useful resources If anyone has any threads or resources they think should be in this thread then please suggest them here. Once it is up I will then keep updating it.

Wrestlemania 8 main event: Hulk Hogan vs. Magnum TA, mustache vs. mustache match.

Imagine Magnum TA had made it into the mid-90s and they repackaged him as a character based on Richard Burke (Tom Selleck) from Friends with Ivory in the Monica role and Steven Richards in the Ross role. Or what if ... During the Attitude Era around the time of the APA, Magnum TA was similarly a "detective for hire". Could have made that whole Corporate Ministry angle shorter with Magnum on the case.

Now this I did not know (or rather, I may know it somewhere in the back of my mind, but hadn't thought about it recently). Does anyone know the exact date this happened? Because on the podcast we've noticed a steep and quite rapid decline in both his work and his overall look by early 88. Another thing I should have mentioned is that Magnum WAS positioned just before his accident to become the new company ace. There is no doubting this. Loss says that Flair was always going to be the franchise, but let's not forget that Flair was also a heel. You can't run a promotion with just a francise heel, you need a franchise babyface too. Magnum was that babyface for 86-7 and like Johnny Sorrow says there's no reason to think that he wouldn't have made it. Although I maintain that JCP's problems run deeper than simply not having a top face. I think the question over whether JCP could have kept him is another good question -- a whole ton of guys jumped ship around this time. They lost Ray Traylor through simple mismanagement. The Rock 'n' roll Express bailed. The Powers of Pain bailed. Terry Taylor bailed. Most of the old UWF guys didn't last long. A lot of those losses to Vince might have been curbed if Dusty's booking and talent relations office had done a better job at trying to keep them. I think there's a lot of reasons to think that even if Magnum TA draws huge for JCP that he might end up in WWF and probably gets an IC title reign. For our alternate universe who knows the knock on effects of a Magnum TA IC title reign in 89. You might not have had Ultimate Warrior, but a Magnum vs. Rude feud instead. Hard to say if someone like Curt Hennig may have been affected a year or so on from that, or even Bret Hart. This is the "butterfly effect" and a guy like Magnum has pretty big wings to flap.

Having just been through this period in some detail watching the PPVs and reading the WONs from this timeframe for the podcast, I do think you might be wrong Loss ... to an extent. One thing that is painfully obvious by 1987 and early 1988 in JCP is that they are chronically lacking a star face (if you don't listen to the podcast, Chad and I spend some time on this in the first 10 minutes or so of the Bunkhouse Stampede 88 episode, including Meltzer's analysis from 87-8). It's clear that Magnum TA was the only star babyface they had on the same level as Dusty. He probably would have won the title at Starrcade 86. Luger and Sting come along later -- and there's no reason to think that either would have overshadowed Magnum until 1989 at the earliest (or in Luger's case mid-late 88). 1987 would have been Magnum's year. Dusty had to turn Nikita Koloff, and "America's Team" was replaced with "The Superpowers". Through a combination of poor booking, under-pushing, and a notable drop off in Nikita's work, by the end of 87 Nikita is just a shadow of his former self. There's a question mark in what happened with Nikita over whether if Magnum hadn't gotten injured, the same thing would have happened. i.e. Would Dusty have known how to position and push Magnum TA? Nikita seems to go from being US champ poised to become world champ to sliding down the card to TV-title level by early 88. All the fizz is gone, crowd don't really seem to care about him all that much anymore, and Nikita himself doesn't seem to care that much anymore. In 87, Dusty seems torn between pushing himself and trying to develop new babyfaces -- he took too long on pulling the trigger with Nikita. I think Magnum TA was a bigger star than Nikita Koloff ever was. And he still gets massive pops in mid- and late-87 just walking out on a pair of crutches. Meltzer talks about JCP lacking "super faces" akin to a Hogan in this period. Magnum was that super face. If Magnum goes over Flair at Starrcade 86, he could have spent the first 4-5 months of 87 as NWA champ with Flair and the Horsemen chasing. By the time you get to GAB, you've got a Magnum, Dusty and Road Warriors vs. Horsemen feud going on. (so exactly what we got with Magnum there as world champ, instead of Nikita). What would have been the net effect of this? 1. JCP would have had a better 87, let's say the Horsemen screw Magnum out of the belt mid-year and then you've got Magnum chasing Flair going into Starrcade and getting a second title run coming out of Starrcade 87 -- no reason to assume that wouldn't have got over huge. 2. No Garvin title run, which was widely seen at the time to damage the company. 3. No need for Dusty to keep pushing himself in 87 and early 88, which again was widely seen as damaging the company. 4. Can keep Nikita as a monster heel to run a Magnum vs. Nikita feud in 88 -- again no reason to believe that wouldn't have sold well. 5. Potential of a Magnum vs. Lex Luger feud too later in 88, which again should have been box office. So all in all, JCP would have been in a better position by the time the Turner buyout, simply because they had another bankable star who wasn't Dusty. Probably quite a bit better. ---------------------------------- Does all that mean there's no buyout, no Hogan in WCW etc.? I don't think so. One of the things we discussed on another show (the Starrcade 87 one), was how Dusty's booking of individual shows and his inability to give us the sort of blow offs Vince always did in WWF, hurt JCP in certain regional markets. For example, they ran Starrcade 87 in Chicago, which pissed off the fans in Greensboro. That show was custom built for the Road Warriors to win the World titles in their backyard. But instead we get a screwy Dusty finish, thereby pissing off the Chicago crowd. So now, instead of winning Chicago as a "JCP town", they've managed somehow to annoy both their hardcore local fans and those in a key market. This is to say nothing of the way the UWF buyout was handled both on tv and backstage. ALSO, JCP overexpanded. They were running shows all over the country with no rhyme or reason. Show in Charlotte today, Oklaholma tomorrow, New York Friday, and LA next week. The plane fares, the costs of maintaining separate offices in Atlanta and Texas (and the one Charlotte), the transport costs etc. all of those things were out of control by 88. Magnum TA might have delayed the Turner buyout, but with Dusty booking the way he did and Crockett mismanaging the nationalisation of the promotion on a colossal scale, I think it was inevitable that they would have. I don't think Magnum would have been a game changer for them, but I do think they would have made more money with him than without him.

I honestly think the "truer" metric is not looking at 10,000+ gates but at the same venue in the same town with different guys on top. Obviously, during the territory era that isn't really possible if a guy was a mainstay in one area. But that mainstay vs. people who came and went would give some indicator as to how much the mainstay was a draw in and of himself and how much the opponents were drawing. This sort of thing shouldn't be too hard to find.

Excellent post btw, thanks for the info.

Did Ted DiBiase make that list Ricky? I only ask because of the long-ish back and forth Dylan and I had over Ted vs. Patera.