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JerryvonKramer

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  1. JerryvonKramer
    Isn't Dory the poster boy for why a wrestler needs more than just ring skills? The reason no one likes him is because he has no charisma at all, he shows very little emotion ever. He only came alive on the All Japan set in the singles match again Brody. I bet you that someone having the exact same matches as Dory, doing the exact same moves only showing intensity, emotion and so on wouldn't be half as hated on. The weirdest thing for me though is that while Dory gets a lot of heat from pretty much everyone for being boring as hell, no one ever even seems to talk about Jack Brisco. I mean at least people talk about Dory, even if it's only to rag on him. Brisco had a rep as the GOAT for ages and these days is more or less ignored. Name never even comes up in the GOAT discussions.
  2. JerryvonKramer
    With Greg Valentine, I think a term like "mat grappler" might be applied. It is clear that Greg Valentine and Ted DiBiase are two different types of worker. Greg's pace was slow and methodical and a lot of his stuff was down on the mat. A lot of Dean Malenko's stuff was on the mat too. But it's clear he was more of a "scientific" worker than a Greg Valentine. Knowledge of certain holds and targeting certain bodyparts as part of a gameplan was part and parcel of what Malenko was doing. So we can say Malenko was a "mat technician". So there are two mat-based workers and I've called one a "grappler" and one a "technician". Neither of them are really brawlers. I don't know if those categorisations work for more than these two examples though. I'll think of some other predominantly mat-based wrestlers: Dory Funk Jr ... "mat technician", Billy Robinson ... "mat technician". I don't know how useful "grappler" and "technican" are as distinctions here, but I think we might be able to agree that mat-based workers -- workers who do a lot of submission holds and matwork -- are a specific class of wrestler. Let me name some people now: Rick Rude, Bret Hart, Paul Orndorff, Arn Anderson, Tully Blanchard, Ted DiBiase. Are any of these predominantly "mat-based" wrestlers? Do they spend the majority of their matches like a Dory Funk Jr. or a Billy Robinson down on the mat in various submission holds? The answer is no. Rude might sit in a chinlock or Arn might work on a specific body part, but for the most part these are all guys who keep things going. I wouldn't call any of these guys "mat-based". I'm saying one category of worker is "mat-based" as a type that is distinct from "technician". Let me throw out some more terms: Brawler Technician High-flyer Power wrestler Monster / Giant Who are some undisputed brawlers? Stan Hansen, Bruiser Brody, Jim Duggan, Roddy Piper, Ronnie Garvin Who are some undisputed technicians? Chris Benoit maybe? Bret Hart certainly. What about Ricky Steamboat? Yes? Flair? Harley Race? Nick Bockwinkel? Rick Martel? Curt Hennig? High-flyers? Rey Mysterio, Dynamite Kid, Jushin Liger Power wrestlers? Hulk Hogan, Lex Luger, The Barbarian, Ron Simmons, The Road Warriors If we're saying Ted DiBiase isn't fitting neatly into one of those boxes how are we classifying Rude, Orndorff, Arn and Tully? Tully had some of the greatest brawls and downright fucking fights of the 1980s, would anyone in the world say he was a brawler? Tully had a technical style. He did a slingshot suplex. I'd argue he's a technician first and foremost. Arn was also "scientific", he targetted bodyparts. Rude, Orndorff Now both of these guys had bodies, both could sell well, both could do some nice high spots, both mixed some submission holds with an array of strikes. Is anyone going to argue that Rude and Orndorff were brawlers? I don't think so. Were they power wrestlers? Again, they never did your standard power man spots like the Gorilla Press or the test of strength. I can only conclude that from the available types that Rude and Orndorff were "technicians". Let's come back to DiBiase now. If "technician" is a broad enough church to take in everyone from Chris Benoit and Bret Hart to Arn and Tully to Paul Orndorff and Rick Rude, then I don't think DiBiase looks out of place at all. I wonder if we aren't in need of another term though. "Regular wrestler", "grappler", "classical professional wrestler", "all-rounder" even. Seems to me that whatever that other term is, Ted would fit in there alongside Arn, Rude, Orndorff and a whole bunch of other guys that aren't really brawlers, aren't really VERY "technical" like a Bret or Benoit and aren't really mat-based like a Dory Funk Jr. Feel free to dissect this mess of a post folks.
  3. JerryvonKramer
    What 2 fat guys would you have above him? Are you including Vader? Yokozuna? Buddy Rose?? *ducks for cover*
  4. JerryvonKramer
    I'm not basing it entirely on WWF, if you listen to Bill Watts or Jim Ross on commentary in MidSouth they constantly put over the idea of DiBiase as a technician. Any video game DiBiase has ever appeared in, any magazine article, any shoot interview would list him as a "technician". I accept he has no technical masterpieces -- maybe if he'd been in JCP he'd have some, but he doesn't. And that his best matches are mostly brawls. But I can't think of a single other case where the kayfabe presentation of a worker AS WELL as the view of him within the industry is so at odds with the revisionist view. Although I agree that everyone needs to define their terms a bit first before we can even have this conversation.
  5. JerryvonKramer
    I'm not sure that there ARE the technical masterpieces there, but that doesn't mean Ted wasn't a great technician. When he had a chance: with Savage, with Bret, with Shawn he tended to have pretty good matches with more technical wrestlers. But my argument would be this: How many brawlers do suplexes, piledrivers, and backbreakers as part of their standard offense? How many have a submission hold as their finisher? And how many brawlers are able to execute any of those moves as well and as smoothly as Ted did? As I mentioned in the top 5 thread, I maintain that DiBiase has the best powerslam of any wrestler. I see it as at least an equivalent of Arn's spinebuster or Barry Windham's suplex-into-a-pin.
  6. JerryvonKramer
    Wow, Chad, was genuinely shocked to see Luger at the top of your list there. Always got the impression that the man-love was mainly coming from me on Luger and you were lower on him. I think I need two different lists here. A list of my all-time faves and a list of guys I am keen to see more of right now. I guess "flavours of the month". All-time faves: 1. Ted DiBiase. Most of you know this already, but he's always been my favourite wrestler. I could pretend that's because he was a great worker, and he was, but it's mostly because I dug and still dig the character in the WWF. I always loved heels and it seemed to me that DiBiase was like the most heelish of all the heels. Numerous guys were able to turn face or turn heel through The Million Dollar Man. I love a mastermind heel character and for me that was a the coolest of them -- the most evil of all the heels. I do love his in-ring work too though: convinced, for example, that he has the best powerslam of any wrestler. Love his suplex, his piledriver -- feels like a classical professional wrestler. 2. Ric Flair. Impossible in my view not to love Flair. Again, I could pretend that I love him because he was such a great wrestler and I'll argue till I'm blue in the face that he's The GOAT (or close), but the real reason I love him is because he's the greatest promo of all time, because he's probably the greatest character of all time, because watching Flair in his pomp just gives me joy. Still think it's too easy for a lot of people to take him for granted because we're so used to him. 3. Jumbo Tsuruta. The chief result of watching the All Japan set is that I just feel in love with Jumbo. As I've argued from late 85 onwards he just feels like "The Man". For someone who grew up watching Hulk Hogan and the likes of Sting, the idea that a company Ace could be THIS kick ass, this good as a worker, this great at many different aspects of wrestling, was somewhat alien. There is nothing I'm looking forward to more on the Yearbooks than watching Jumbo's pimped 90-92 period. Everything I'd want in a main event wrestler. 4. Arn Anderson. Like I was saying that DiBiase sometimes feels like a "classical professional wrestler" to me, Arn is basically the epitome of that. I never tire of watching Arn. I love everything he does (aside from the drunk punching). Amazing selling, amazing offense, the spinebuster might be my all-time favourite move. Arn in the Dangerous Alliance and around that period might just be my favourite guy in any promotion and at any time. One of the best and most intelligent promo men. One of the best tag wrestlers. One of the best wrestlers period. And I'd say from 1988 to his retirement one of the most consistently excellent performers in the US. Doing the podcast, Arn in 88 feels like Arn in 92 or even Arn in 96. Arn in 85-7 is a slightly different beast, still good, but not the Double A I know and love. But those are his ROOKIE years. 5. Tully Blanchard. Any type of match, any context, any opponent, Tully can make it work and probably give you the best match on the card. I'll be honest, doing the podcasts I'm slightly dreading the moment that Arn and Tully leave for the WWF because I know it means there'll be no more Tully period aside from the cameo at Slamboree. Tully is actually someone who I don't think was great on the mic. He was solid, don't get me wrong, but nowhere near an Arn or Flair. But he was so good in the ring that it doesn't really matter. Consumate heel as well. Want to see more of in the next few months: 1. Buzz Sawyer - I really thought he was good in January of 1990 and need to dig out my Mid South set. I can see him just being amazing in that setting. 2. Al Perez - Only seen two of his matches from early 88 in JCP but noone talks about this guy and I've liked everything he's done. 3. Tenryu from the 90s - only because Jesus Christ he's a psychopath in January 1990 and I already like him more than the 89 incarnation. I leave open now scope for a U-turn from me on him. 4. Stan Hansen - a lot of his stuff on the All Japan set was GREAT but I did think to myself a few times that it was also a bit samey, that Hansen might be something of a one-trick pony, even if that trick is one of the best tricks ever performed. I want to see him in more settings, and am pumped for the Slaughter matches on the AWA set. 5. Tito Santana from 84-85. My watching of TNT and Primetime is VERY sporadic but I was very impressed by the Tito vs. Adrian Adonis match from the 05/29/84 edition of TNT and several people here have talked up Tito from that period.
  7. JerryvonKramer
    It's well known that Dave Meltzer always thought of DiBiase as a technical wrestler and as one of the best in the world. That opinion has since been challenged on boards like this and DVDR and DiBiase no longer enjoys his position as being a "top 5 worker anywhere in the world for the 1980s". Will is one of the more vocal defenders of DiBiase and his line is that we shouldn't think of Ted as a technician but as a brawler and that his best matches in MidSouth are bloody brawls. I was reading one of the books I got recently: The Prowrestling Hall of Fame: The Tag Teams by Greg Oliver and Steven Johnson. DiBiase and Steve Williams have an entry. Let me quote from it: That's Duggan saying that. Why did everyone in the industry, including guys who worked with him closely characterise Ted as a technician if he was this great brawler? I'm not having a go at you Will -- just questioning the revisionist position on this one. From what I've seen of Mid-South there's no doubt that Ted was a great brawler, but I still maintain that he was as good technically as anyone in the 80s. For those who disagree, why? What doesn't Ted do well? Sorry for making a whole thread out of this seemingly small issue, but it's a case where the revisionist position is almost 100% opposite to the conventional wisdom. The gap is too large.
  8. JerryvonKramer
    I'll admit a certain morbid fascination on my part with the sorts of commericals they aired during a Clash in 88 led to us discussing them more than expected. But at this stage Chad and I have talked about JCP and its wrestlers and matches for well over 30 hours, and Clash 2 just so happens to be the first show we've seen where the wrestling REALLY takes a backseat to one angle (Flair-Luger) and the matches are "just there". So if this was your first ever time listening to the podcast, this episode wasn't very representative of a typical show. Point taken though.
  9. JerryvonKramer
    Arn is definitely doing the spinebuster all through 1988, and I'm sure in 87 too. My guess he started using it during his first singles run as TV champ while Ole was injured in early 86.
  10. JerryvonKramer
    "We like em tall, we like em small, we like em all JR" Pretty good mic work from Woman. This is a relatively rare instance where Ric Flair was a face in his Slick Rick mode. By which I mean there are few ostensible differences between his heel and face versions (contrast the 83 and 93 face runs).
  11. JerryvonKramer
    Nice suit Terry. Callous does a good line in bemusement.
  12. JerryvonKramer
    This is pretty awesome, Lawler is a big fish in a small pond trying to prove what a big star he is and Dave Brown is sceptical. This Brown / Lawler double act is something I'm very glad to have seen.
  13. JerryvonKramer
    Fuller aged quite a bit from here to his Col. Parker days. This was fun. "We don't want all you fat hogs now, or none of you obese women". Ha ha ha. I love Dave Brown as a host.
  14. JerryvonKramer
    Is the idea here that DiBiase watches Virgil pumping iron? Jake vs. DiBiase got almost 4 months of build. But don't forget that it actually goes back to Wrestlemania 5 when DiBiase stole Damian during the Andre match.
  15. JerryvonKramer
    DDT on the table outside. FUCK, piledriver on the floor onto a chair! Travis should be dead already. Tombstone! Basically a squash match. Great heel beatdown at the end. Lawler's jumper is terrible.
  16. JerryvonKramer
    Crowd is wild. Feel that the heels are a bit outpowered going into this. Buzz Sawyer stands out as MVP for the heels. Stiff, nice powerslam, good at working the crowd. Dragon Master aka the fake Kendo Nagasaki looks pretty shitty to me. Muta had some neat exchanges with Sting. Love Cornette claiming the Addams Family is in the front row. "Is that Pugsly?" Is Sawyer something of a mini-revelation? He was really good in this match.
  17. JerryvonKramer
    As this started I just assumed this was from some indy show until I noticed who it was in there. Odd venue, "low rent" being the right phrase. This is just progressing a storyline in my mind. Tenryu is a man who has just snapped at this point. The relationship Jumbo is actually quite complex and interesting for wrestling. I don't think this feud has an equivalent in US wrestling at all.
  18. JerryvonKramer
    Imagine the director there, "get a close up quick, on her ass, SHERRI'S ASS! Camera 2 on her ass now!" Highlight of the match was Savage's epic airplane spin. I'm not really a fan of Piper post-85.
  19. JerryvonKramer
    Anyone notice how Ventura had all the heels on offence during this? Very subtle but a nice little touch of continuity there.
  20. JerryvonKramer
    I was vaguely amused by the face that Shawn is eliminated in about 20 seconds by the Warrior. Hogan vs. Honktonk Man looks like a massive mismatch. "The moment", for whatever reason, seems to lose something here. Barbarian and Rude used to be in Paul Jones's army together in another life. Everyone always talks about Perfect winning this rumble, but what about Rude?? He was the guy to go on to have the main event run with Warrior anyway, so why not put him over here to set that up? After Warrior has gone the brief face team of Hogan and Hercules is funny. It's like Hogan will take any help he can even someone as low down the card as him. He's also started his "I don't care about the rules" back scratches. Can't believe Herc eliminates Barb, can't believe Herc is in the final four! Can't believe Jesse isn't picking his favourite, Rude, as the winner. I think Rude should have won, personally. Liked the fact that Jesse talked up DiBiase's iron-man run and pointed out that Hogan drew #25 during the posing.
  21. JerryvonKramer
    Top notch investigative journalism from Sean Mooney here as he senses tension brewing under the surface of the Heenan family and teases it out like Louis Theroux.
  22. JerryvonKramer
    Have always like this match. Don't think anyone does "dazed" quite as well as Valentine. Jesse's talk about egos is really good, incisive analysis. Don't understand anyone who is down on Jesse. Valentine's chops are as stiff as anything Garvin lays in. I like the fact Valentine goes to a torture rack after he figures that the figure-four isn't going to work. I also like the fact Jesse mentions that was his move as a wrestler before critiquing the way Valentine has it synced in. I don't know why I thought Garvin was so lame as a kid -- I don't think I was alone either, but he was great. Think it is because he had 1) really crap hair and 2) that awful guest ring announcer spot was pathetic. Jesse starts calling Tony a pipsqueak after all the weight he's lost recently. I think the match loses something in the last quarter, possibly because there is not enough pyschology. Valentine doesn't work the leg enough and Garvin doesn't work the lower back enough for my liking. Still good though.
  23. JerryvonKramer
    Tony + Jesse is one of my favourite commentary teams because Tony is such a straight-laced guy and Jesse is Jesse. I like how happy he is about Perfect coming to the rescue. It's ironic isn't it that Brutus was such a terrible barber. Couldn't give a decent haircut to save his life. "That haircut makes Gene Okerlund's hair look good" "Now Jesse" Ha ha.
  24. JerryvonKramer
    Like everyone else, I'm surprised by this pre-Rumble build. I mean watching this, the showdown is expected -- takes something away from that moment I think.
  25. JerryvonKramer
    JYD is fat as fuck here. Worst colour man in the history of the world. Lawler's hair is awful. His cowardly stalling is pretty funny here though. And very effective because that first punch from JYD achieves its maximum possible impact. Lawler is almost wrestling himself. I never want to see or hear Terrence Garvin again.
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