JerryvonKramer

Legit contender for worst NWA supercard of the 80s ... Where the Big Boys Play #21 - Bunkhouse Stampede 88 Chad and Parv talk about Bunkhouse Stampede 88. In this show: Chad talks about how he's basically "the mini Big Boss Man", some discussion of how tv ratings and PPV buyrates worked in the late 80s, evaluation of the roster at this time and how signing Ted DiBiase and Curt Hennig might have helped Crockett, Larry Zbyszko's ultimate ambition in life: to win the Western States Heritage title!, young Jim Ross's intense hyperbole, Chad rants about why Road Warrior Hawk is an idiot and Parv explains why he hates the Road Warriors in general, the mythical book of wrestling records, arguably the worst 10 minutes in wrestling broadcast history, why can't the Warlord's arms bend?, after 20 shows Chad finally lays into Dusty's massive ego, comparison with Royal Rumble 88, and end of show awards.

Was The Sheik really a bigger draw than Bruno?

Dylan, if you look at the 3 criteria in my OP, I thought a combination of those three things might be a very robust metric.

I'm interested by that Loss. I'm interested to see if he drew any better than Race, for example. In other words, was Flair drawing well simply because business was up or because he was Ric Flair? I might do some digging around to compare Race and Flair from 80 to 85. Might throw in Backlund and a few other names too to put this idea to the test. Would be good to have Meltzer's list though.

Is it Backlund? Is it Slaughter? Is it Flair or Race? Is it Savage? Do we have any sort of measure of how big a draw Flair was AS COMPARED with, for example, Harley Race? In theory, this data should exist: Race as champ vs. local hero Flair as champ vs. same local hero a few months down the line I would imagine that scenario happened numerous times. I'd be interested to see if there was a correlation of differences there. Did Race and Flair draw the same or did one do better than the other? How did each of them draw vs. Backlund? How did they draw vs. Lawler? Of course, these aren't perfect comparisons -- there are factors other than who is wrestling that dictate if people go to see wrestling (e.g. economic climate, whether wrestling is in a boom period or not) -- but over enough time and with enough data it should be possible to show who the bigger draw was between the two of them. Who else is even in the conversation? There are I guess two different ways of doing "biggest draw": 1. Total combined gate - in which case it's got to be either Backlund, Race, Flair or possibly Bockwinkel or Savage or Lawler 2. Ten largest gates - in which case I'd imagine the field is busted wide open. What was Tommy Rich drawing like in 81? How do his top 10 gates compare with, for example, the top 10 gates of Junkyard Dog? And how did either of them compare with Ultimate Warrior in 89? These two different ways of measuring drawing power will give us two very different lists, roughly speaking "long-term" and "short-term" draws. The picture is complicated further by geography, and we might say: 3. How well did Jerry Lawler draw outside of Memphis compared with how well did Flair draw outside of the Carolinas? How well did Backlund draw outside of the North East? And so on. Now Hogan is demonstrably the "biggest draw" by each of these three criteria. His total combined gate is probably the biggest, his top 10 gates are bigger than anyone else's top ten gates and he drew well all around the country from coast to coast and in between. So the number 2 has to be someone who measures well by all 3 criteria. Who is it?

Only an hour into this mammoth show so far. You chaps aren't going to be happy about this, but -- even though he is a fellow Welshman -- I really don't like Adrian Street. I didn't like any of his stuff on the Mid South set at all. Some of the other choices are interesting though.

I was interested to note that 5 of my friends who only watched wrestling for a year or so during the attitude era, had no clue who John Cena was. They'd never even heard of him. This surprised me a little bit so I asked another group of friends about it (another five people, also not wrestling fans), and none of them had heard of him either. Curious about this I then asked one of my undergrad classes (about 20 people aged 19-20, mostly female), and drew a blank. I was a little shocked at that those results. I also teach a class of American students, again mostly female, and for balance I asked them too and most of them seemed at least to have heard of Cena. Still, I wonder if he isn't as big a star as anyone thinks. He's the top draw at a time when wrestling is mostly anonymous to most people. Cena's mainstream penetration is clearly not on the level of Hogan's or Rock's or even Austin's or arguably even Savage's. That doesn't say a huge amount though, because I'm convinced Ric Flair has never had any sort of mainstream penetration (i.e. he's a massive star within the world of wrestling, but not outside of that bubble).

Ok, I don't mind maintaining a thread. I've also had a thought that we need a section of this thread linking to the final DVDR 80s rankings for each territory and to various other 80s project resources. Again if a newcomer finds their way here, this sort of thing would be helpful. I might start a new thread for the purposes of being pinned. Will have to wait till the weekend though. Please post links and suggestions here. I especially want to know: What sources do you use for info beyond Graham Crawthorn's site, Solie, Cagematch and WON? If I'm going to do this, it might as well be comprehensive.

I'm going to mention again that I enjoyed Classie Freddie Blassie vs Baron Leone from 1952. Here are some matches I really enjoyed from Mid-South: Mr. Olympia vs. Chavo Guerrero (6/24/83) Magnum TA vs. Ted DiBiase (No DQ) (Tulsa 5/27/84) Rock N Roll Express vs. Chavo & Hector Guerrero (2/13/85) The Fantastics vs. Chavo & Hector Guerrero (10/12/84) Ted Dibiase vs. Jim Duggan (No DQ) (3/8/85) The Fantastics vs. Midnight Express (OKC 8/9/84) Ted DiBiase vs. Brad Armstrong (2/10/85) Magnum TA vs. Ted DiBiase (7/6/84) I don't have dates but from WWF but: Tito Santana vs. Greg Valentine feud through 84-5 More Savage in general, I like his matches from MSG and Wrestlefest with DiBiase in 88 (more than anyone else here ) For NWA: Scaffold matches all suck, all of them do (although I seem to recall one involving Koko B. Ware being pimped, I think from Memphis) -- with the Rock n Rolls and Midnights, better to try to find normal matches. R n R have a great match at Starrcade 86 with Ole and Arn. Also, given that you have the Steamboat trilogy: Luger vs. Flair matches in 88 Funk vs. Flair matches in 89 ------- I'd also look for some more Rick Martel matches from the 80s.

Any time he faces Ric Flair or Tully Blanchard. I'm on ny phone so I can't link but if you click on "Where the Big Boys Play" in my sig and go to the awards from the menu myself and soup23 go through what we think is Match of the Night on every NWA supercard from 83 on. Someone should also link you to the DVDR Top 150 rankings -- you could do worse than watch the top 10 from every territory.

I'm on my phone but my initial thought is that you need more Ronnie Garvin and less scaffold. More Wargames too.

Glad you finally made it here killabee. 25.11.1987 Iron Mike Sharpe defeats Ivan Putski WWF House Show @ Civic Center in Providence, Rhode Island, USA However, you are right, Putski was at least 4-0 over Sharpe when that happened. Here are some Putski matches from 85 according to Cagematch -- I'm highlighting his losses to lower card wrestlers here: 27.11.1985 Terry Gibbs defeats Ivan Putski WWF House Show @ Denver, Colorado, USA 22.09.1985 The Missing Link defeats Ivan Putski WWF House Show @ Civic Center in Beaumont, Texas, USA 16.09.1985 The Missing Link defeats Ivan Putski WWF House Show @ Convention Center in Fresno, California, USA 27.05.1985 Jim Neidhart defeats Ivan Putski by Count Out WWF House Show @ West Palm Beach, Florida, USA 20.05.1985 Jim Neidhart defeats Ivan Putski WWF on MSG Network @ Madison Square Garden in New York City, New York, US But in general, you are right, he has a lot of wins in 85 over Buddy Rose, Jerry Valiant, Mike Sharpe, Rene Goulet, Moondog Spot, Butcher Vachon, Matt Borne, Johnny V, Bob Orton, Bret Hart, and even in one match Jesse Ventura. Putski it seems was a bad example for this thread since in 85 he was pretty solidly in the midcard.

I didn't know where to put this so I thought I'd start a thread on it. Here on PWO there is a nice system for archiving the debates and threads that really "take off" in terms of number of replies. However, not all threads are designed to generate conversation, but rather to inform, educate or pool the collective resources of knowledge for the collective good. These threads don't tend to be long as they don't generate massive debates, but they often contain useful information. Every once in a while I find myself trawling pages or using the search function to find these threads when I want to check something. Wouldn't it be good if they were collected all together in one place as a nice reference point: a knowledge archive, as it were. I've only spent 20 minutes or so, but the following threads might be the sort of thing collected. The emphasis is mainly on either information or introductory-type threads, rather than opinion (including GOAT or WON HoF discussion). Information Ratings explained The Flair Formula A Week in TV in 1986 A Demand for a Comprehensive Buyrates List WCW Head Bookers ELO Wrestler Rating System Hardcore Wrestling History The Historiography of the Greatest Match Of All Time Introductory Joshi for People Who Don't Like Joshi The Beginner's Guide to British Wrestling The Beginner's Guide to Lucha Libre Lucha History That would be a start. I didn't go many pages deep so there may well be threads that pre-date my registration here that might be useful to include as well. We could also give some thought to including ... "Tomes", that is, the super-duper in-depth sort of stuff that Dylan has done with Buddy Rose, Jerry Blackwell and Ken Patera and similar threads by other people. Finally, there might be a thread of links of some useful resources elsewhere, not just stuff like Solie.org or http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com, but stuff like khawk's AWA thread over on DVDR or any number threads by jdw at The Other Arena. I'm thinking here not only of the regulars who post here every day, but also of newcomers or just people browsing who might not be aware that any of these threads exist. Putting them all in one place would help to make this place a great resource for the online wrestling community in general. Also -- and here's another thought -- it may inspire people to aim to make new threads and contributions.

Think Ross and Sullivan are a pretty effective combo on commentary. Ross mentions at one point "For all the wrestling buffs at home, this is the first time Lee Scott has mainevented World Championship Wrestling. Mark the date January 13th, 1990" And here we are in 2012 marking the date. Just a strange little moment where it was Like Ross was talking directly to us. He does a tremendous job of putting over Scott's heart, guts and effort here. Obviously he thought this was a big deal for Scott and it was nice to see him put that over so much. He also mentions that Cactus Jack had a horrendous win-loss record to date, so it was clear that this was his first "big" win -- even though it was basically a jobber match. Sullivan had some great one-liners here too: "He's burned the candles at both ends and in the middle!" I realise I've just talked about the announcing there, not the wrestling but hey.

Fun segment. Something says that this isn't the last we'll see of Flair / Woman.

How did it come about that Americans say "math" but the British say "maths"?

I see. So it's the abuse of "however" when used as a conjunction that upsets you and tim. I can see a whole stable forming now. tigerpride is the Flair of the grammatarians. tim and Gregor are the Arn and Tully.

Is your grammar gimmick a refusal to use upper case letters? I'd argue that "however" could be cut from that sentence. "It is an understandable and I suppose little-known error; nonetheless, it annoys me!" I can see the example though. This is quite a niche thing to get annoyed about tim.

When would you ever do that? I can't think of any scenarios in which the semi-colon would be appropriate. If it's a sub-clause it's going to be a comma. If you're moving onto a different point it would be a new sentence. So when are you using the semi-colon?

I know this is going to be closed soon, but this has been most entertaining. I do like how tigerpride is necessarily the heel here. It's entirely fitting for wrestling. The Grammatarian strikes again! FLIK as a kind of true blue Hacksaw Jim Duggan figure: he might spell funny but his heart is in the right place!

El-P, French was the language of the court, Anglo-Saxon the language of the peasantry, so you get these distinctions where the cooked form ("beef") comes from French and the uncooked form ("cow") comes from Anglo-Saxon. This association, of the French language with "poshness" and sophistication basically endured right through to people using French words to show off or make themselves sound smarter. In this case, I wanted to make a lame joke ("some of my best friends are called Blanche") in order to lampoon a) the general absurdity of this argument, b ) of internet arguments in general, and c) the sort of reflexive cliches that people employ in such arguments. I apologise for the incredible un-funniness and smart-arsery of this joke.

Savile may be beyond comparison with Benoit. I don't know what the US equivalent of someone like him would be but let's say -- I dunno, someone like Dick Cavett, at least in terms of stature. The fact he had a pro wrestling career is very weird. This has obviously been one of the biggest news stories of the year here. Interested to know what sort of coverage it had in the US.

El-P, English is just a messy amalgam of French and old Anglo-Saxon (and Greek) anyway. It isn't so much a coherent language as a sponge that just takes in words from all over the place. This is why English is three- or even four-times bigger (in terms of number of words) than the nearest rival. Words become Anglecised and lose their original meaning. English is a kind of piratical culture stealing bits from all over the world and then reimagining it in its own image. American culture is like the bastard-child post-modern version of that. All of which is saying is that "carte blanche" means whatever Mr. Englishman or Mr. Americanman wants it to mean and that sort of thinking is strongly characteristic of the Anglo-American mindset.

Clarity in grammar and writing show clarity in thinking. However, pedantry and mindlessly following and enforcing rules are the pursuits of a mundane mind. However, that fact alone does not give one carte blanche to flout the rules of grammar. However, some of my best friends are called Blanche.

Here's Starrcade. These shows are only split in two because I have a vague notion that people don't want their podcasts to be longer than 1 hour. If people wouldn't mind the shows being 2 hours+ let me know and from here on we can just go with a longer show format. Don't mind either way. Also - if anyone has any info on angles or storylines between Starrcade 87 and Bunkhouse Stampede 88 let us know. Feedback welcome as ever too. Thanks to Solomon once again for joining us. Where the Big Boys Play #19 – Starrcade 87: Part 1 It’s Starrcade time again, 1987 style. For this show Chad and Parv are joined by King Solomon who will be the first 3rd man / guest host of our rotating “hot seat”. In this show: Solomon talks about life growing up as a wrestling fan in LA during the 80s, analysis of JCP’s handling and booking of the UWF takeover, Parv’s wife threw out his notes so Chad takes over play-by-play for the first two matches, why did the Midnight Express keep agreeing to scaffold matches?, and the burial of Terry Taylor. Where the Big Boys Play #20 – Starrcade 87: Part 2 Solomon, Chad and Parv finish their review of Starrcade 87. In this show: To what extent did Dusty’s booking of the tag title match at this show “kill Chicago” for Crockett, were the Road Warriors ever been pinned in the 1980s?, Dusty Rhodes: 270lbs!, the difference between Dave Meltzer’s views in 1987 vs. our views in 2012, Parv mounts a defence of Ronnie Garvin, would you have bought this show or Survivor Series 87?, and picks for the end of show awards.