JerryvonKramer

I think that's a fair reply Dylan. And you're right to mention that my having seen a lot of Tully of late means that that he's on my mind more than other guys at the moment. First to the point I made about "exoticism", I was actually thinking of a phenomena from being a football fan ("soccer") in the 90s. In the 1990s, and still to an extent now, if your name is something like Demetrio Albertini or Romario or anything vaguely "continental" sounding, that's a lot more exciting than being called Des Walker or Steve Bruce. And it comes with a host of unspoken assumptions not only about the player's ability but also about the player's type. You assume the "fancier" sounding continental players will be more technically skillful but perhaps less physically imposing. You assume the English players with "plain" names possess talents like "grit and determination". It's continental (or South American skill) vs. English brute force. There's was a mystique about foreign players and a mundane feeling about English players. To an extent, that has subsided today as everyone is mostly exposed to all different types of players all the time. But the old stereotypes still persist to an extent, partly of course because they are true. I was suggesting that something approaching this exists in wrestling. Back in the 1990s, there WAS a mystique about Japanese wrestlers. You might have never seen a Fujiwara match in your life, but the fact this dude is called Fujiwara already means that in your mind he's got to be the best thing ever. Obviously, I'm not accusing anyone here of still thinking like that. But there is ... the residue of that thought still sort of persisting somewhere. I mean it might not be explicit or easy to spot, but it is there somewhere right? Just like there is the idea that a random Brazilian footballer is probably more skillfull than a random English footballer. I'm not necessarily going anywhere with this, just a thing I wonder about that's all. Re: specifics. I agree that Tully has a stronger case than Sarge. I have to give a lecture tomorrow morning or else I'd stay up putting a match-list together. All I'll say is, since doing the podcasts with soup23, which you mentioned, he's legitimately been up for MVP each and every show he's been on. http://jerryvonkramer.ipage.com/podcast/wh...-award-results/ I don't have the results for Great American Bash 87 up yet (Tuesday probably), but Chad picked him again for MVP there (*I think* I picked Jimmy Garvin). So out of 10 shows in total, he was on the card 8 times and of those he's been picked to be MVP by at least one person 5 times. This does throw something up though. You'll notice that he didn't necessarily have the match of the night every single time he was picked as MVP. Do we take things like that into consideration: for example, standing out on a bad card?

Here's something I wonder: does familiarity breed contempt? Or let me put it another way, is there still -- even now -- among a certain breed of fan, an exoticism about Japanese and Mexican wrestling -- which extends now to the more obscure territories -- that doesn't extend to the big two? i.e. that it's easier to get excited about a Jerry Blackwell than it is about Tully who we've known about for years. I'm not necessarily laying that claim at your door, I'm just putting the idea out there that Tully might have a harder time making it into a top 10 than some other guys, despite his shedload of great matches and performances. Of the 37 workers Dylan names there, who has higher or more high-end matches than Sarge or Tully? If matches are the only barometer, does Savage?

Don't know if anyone here listens to hip-hop, but GZA / Genius from the Wu-Tang Clan definitely used to watch 70s WWF. Here he is in Shadowboxin where we get the line: I slayed MC's back in the rec room era My style broke motherfuckin backs like Ken Patera Then years later on the song The plan was drawing blood and displayed it graphically Direct order, hit the border, then slaughter Horrific torture, by prolific authors Shape and mold MC's, like I'm playing the skelly top It's getting 'hot in here' like the single that Nelly dropped So take ya clothes off, the track is so soft A little vodka turn 'em into Ivan Koloff I always find it greatly amusing when guys like that randomly turn up in pop culture.

Care to elaborate Dylan? Who is getting in the Top 10 ahead of Tully and Sarge?

What are people thinking about Sgt. Slaughter at the moment? Is he top 10? Also, the original conversation here revolved around Flair, Lawler, and Jumbo. What about Tully Blanchard?

Big Bubba wasn't booked particularly strongly during his early NWA run.

Sean, there are those us -- myself, El-P, some others too -- who have completely given up on it. There's enough footage from the 80s alone probably to last me a lifetime. To be honest, when there's the entirety of any given promotion you care to name from 1985 to watch, I can't see any reason at all to devote any of my wrestling time to watching this week's RAW. Once I've seen all of the 80s sets, all of the 90s yearbooks, every single NWA and WCW PPV, and any other disc here that I happen to have, maybe I'll consider watching RAW again then.

This actually relates to another thing, not often discussed. Back in the day, you could go weeks without seeing Hogan on TV. Not every member of the roster was present on every show. So if a guy cuts a promo on someone else, chances are that he's not there that day. Two men in a feud could feasibly go months without encountering each other until the big PPV blow off. Every short blue-screen promo or every time that person appeared on camera at all, someone would make a point of mentioning the fact that he was locked in a feud with someone else. You could tease things for a significant period of time. And you could build to a match. All of that is lost pretty much instantly as soon as you get the scenario you describe. It worked for a grand total of one angle (Austin vs. McMahon). By the time -uh, you get-uh, to the-uh, fifteen-uh minute promos from fucking HHH week after week the concept of the long opening promo that sets up the main arc for the 2 or 3 hours of tv you're about to watch is already ruined. But the fact that structure exists proves a mentality: they aren't booking to the end of a PPV blow-off, they are booking to the end of that week's RAW. This sort of thing seeps its way into mainstream TV writing as well. Did anyone watch Heroes? By season 3 or 4 it's already clear the writers are just writing to the end of that weeks episode, not to the finale. It's terribly frustrating.

The thing with breaking rules and taboos is that you can only do it once and then they are broken. The genie is out of the bottle now, so wrestling itself is in a sense broken. Re: long promos they used to do pretty long ones in NWA. I agree though, the old short blue screen promo was a major part of the 80s era boom's success.

- Monthly PPVs - Star vs. star matches every week on TV - 5-6 hours+ of free wrestling on TV every week - The prominence of GMs - Divas - The death of kayfabe Depends on if you think these are all good things or bad things. I think they are mostly bad things, naturally.

Where the Big Boys Play #17 – Great American Bash 87: Part 1 Chad and Parv take a look at Great American Bash 1987. Highlights include: have the babyfaces ever won the coin toss for the Wargames?, views on Rick Steiner’s offense, and Chad gives extended thoughts on the careers of both Dick Murdoch and Steve Williams in the US and Japan.

rainmaker, I have Goodhelmet's amazing Horseman set, but alas only so many hours in the week. I left off somewhere in 1986, pre-Magnum injury. Chad and I are now months away from where I was.

Thanks Vic, this is the sort of thing it would be great if people could keep coming. Meltzer does a good job of tracking comings and goings, backstage stuff and the general state of the business and the office. But the WONs really don't give a lot of detail on storylines and it's not like anyone has bothered to chronicle all this anywhere online.

What's the argument for rating the 70s over the 90s? While we're at it, who is the 1 voter for the 70s?

Guys, the Great American Bash 87 show is recorded and forthcoming, but -- as we mention on there -- Brian is no longer going to be a regular on this podcast. Brian brought a lot of things to these shows, not least of all terrific knowledge of the angles and storylines that bridge each supercard. He filled in a lot of that information. Since we no longer have this knowledge to draw on in the show itself, could I ask people -- including Brian himself -- to contribute whatever story-related info you can to this thread so we can draw on it for each show? For example, what were the general goings on between the summer of 87 and Starrcade 87? Did Flair get his 1 night with Precious? Just mention whatever you know to get us from A to B. This will help keep the podcast as informed as possible. I'd be really grateful if people could do this, even if they don't listen to the show.

http://www.wrestlenewz.com/wrestling/exclu...d-wwe-creative/ Are these stories about Heyman being on the creative team now to be believed?

The difference between WWE today and the product from before 2001 is like the difference between manufactured pop and rock music. Whenever I see current WWE, the wrestlers feel as interchangable as members of a boy band or X Factor winners. And it feels as bland and disposable as that. It's not really wrestling in my book, I don't consider current WWE to be even comparable to any wrestling from the 80s and 90s. They are as incomparable, in my mind, as boy bands and rock groups or proper singer/songwriters. One CM Punk or one Jericho flying the flag of how things should be done can't change the fact that they are working in an impossibly plastic environment. I remember even as early as 2005 watching the interplay between Flair and various other guys and everything was so micromanaged that even Flair came off as phony and scripted. I'd go as far as to say that I despise what WWE has become. I turned Wrestlemania 28 off mid-way through because it was like watching a fucking computer game.

I've never seen that Savage / Tito match but best Savage match ever? Really? Maybe this match will crop up when I'm working through Prime Time.

In reply to the last two posts, I got two words for ya: gimmick change. Why is it assumed that Morton has to stay with Gibson or in the R n R gimmick? Repackage him. A good worker is a worker. Just need a bit of vision and creativity to harness that. Some people say wrestling is a sport, others say being a wrestler is closer to being an actor. But how many top athletes do you know that still have ability and talent that are let go? How many actors with a good record and a string of great performances struggle to get work? But the wrestling industry doesn't work like that. If Morton was a sportsman or an actor his career wouldn't have gone the same way. People that insanely talented would always have a job. I don't see what the RnR act being dated in the mid-90s has anything to do with it, just give him a different role. Fuck, they gave Papa Shango 4 or 5 different gimmicks and he wasn't even a 100th of the talent Morton was and was never a proven draw like Morton was. There's 5 different ideas to get Charles Wright over but only one for Morton? Why?

It really does suck that a guy who bust his ass for the business got so fucked over by it. Morton is the wrestling equivalent of Boxer the horse from Animal Farm. Just used up and thrown on the scrap heap with scarcely any thanks. I can see why he's bitter at Nash. Why aren't the RnRs inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame yet? Couldn't he be a road agent or something? It's bizarre that guys like Harvey Wippleman have got a job there and there's no place for Morton. It's heartbreaking too. Couldn't WCW have utilised him in the Cruiserweight division in 1997? Think of the matches he would have had. This is one of those things that's very hard to accept. One of the legit greatest workers couldn't get a job when he was 41?

Here's the scenario: for the rest of your life you can only watch footage from one decade starting on January 1st in the first year of the decade and ending on December 31st of the last year. Assume you have access to all AVAILABLE footage. If it's out there, you can get hold of it. If it isn't, assume it is lost. Which decade would you go for and why? I foresee this being a straight 80s vs 90s fight, but I don't see a clear winner. 1989 is probably the best single year overall, followed by 1992. There's an argument to say that the 90s subsumes the 80, because almost all of the big 80s stars were still active and you get a whole new generation of talent coming through in every promotion. The argument for the 80s must start with the fact that, well, there's simply MORE of it in both quantity and variety. Every territory had TV and its own unique flavour. You've also got to think about what you are LOSING. If you pick the 1980s, then you simply don't have access to matches from other decades. That means if 3-4 of your all-time favourite matches happened in the 90s, you won't see them ever again. It's important to give your reasons here -- picking one decade over another should be a big decision. Consider what you are leaving behind and what you are taking and why.

What's the full story about Ricky Morton? Why does he have such financial troubles? His much-mooted coke addiction? The child support payments? Why did the RnRs fall to near-jobber status in the two major feds in the 90s? Some of the feud / legit beef with Nash over the last couple of years is very sad to see. You think about the life he's leading and in some ways it is worse than what we see in The Wrestler. On a quite different note, stumbled on this: http://mustachiosaurus.wordpress.com/tag/wcw/ Pretty entertaining.

Loss - I've just read on cage match that DiBiase had 3 tag matches matches in November 93 for All Japan: 13.11.1993: Akira Taue, Giant Baba & Toshiaki Kawada vs. Stan Hansen, Ted DiBiase & Tracy Smothers AJPW Real World Tag League 1993 - Tag 1 @ Yokosuka, Kanagawa, Japan 14.11.1993: Stan Hansen & Ted DiBiase vs. Richard Slinger & Tracy Smothers AJPW Real World Tag League 1993 - Tag 2 @ Korakuen Hall in Tokyo, Japan 15.11.1993: Stan Hansen & Ted DiBiase vs. Abdullah The Butcher & Kimala II AJPW Real World Tag League 1993 - Tag 3 @ Toda, Saitama, Japan However, Wikipedia and all other sources say that only the 14th November match happened and that DiBiase was replaced by Baba in the tournament. Either way, the Funk match was not his very last.

El-P, seen in context, how badly did the heel turn affect Luger during that run? I remember it's one of the most awkward turns ever ever, he's just beaten Windham for the belt, what should be his crowning moment is basically torpedoed by Harley Race randomly coming down to the ring. Crowd doesn't know what the fuck to do, and it didn't help that they spent the whole match chanting "WE WANT FLAIR". But I haven't seen the TV before and after. Are there any positives to draw from it at all or was it the clusterfuck it looks on Bash 91?