JerryvonKramer

Here's a bit of an unlikely one, but how about Ted DiBiase in the WWF? Ok, this is nowhere near on the level of Garvin or Slaughter but he went from main-eventing Wrestlemania and Summerslam in 88 to a nothing match with Beefcake at Wrestlemania 5 and a nothing match with Snuka at Summerslam '89. You could argue that '89 was just a "downtime" year for him as he was gearing up for his next Hogan feud at Survivor Series, but there's definitely something of a "de-push" at play there. I don't think he was ever at bona fide main event level again after '88, despite the last feud with Hogan in '93. Not really a "fall from grace" as such, but one of those things I've always noticed. He kind of hovered in a strange space where he was obviously "too good" to go for the IC title, but was never really in the world title picture. That said, I think he had a mini re-push around the time Sherri started managing him in 91, which was his last serious singles run before Money Inc and retirement. Might be a slightly different topic: what do guys do in the year after their mega-push? Savage from '92 to '93, might be someone else to consider.

That's a good point actually, why was it always Terry to get knocked out rather than the other way around? Surely would make more sense to have Dory knocked out and a fired up Terry.

Not just in the singles match though, but in the one where Stan Hansen is outside and Terry gets knocked out for about 15 minutes following a lariat. Dory perhaps brings it even more in that match than he did in the singles match. It's Brody and Snuka I believe. I was HATING Dory on Disc 1, but he turned it round with those couple of matches. Sure, he's still not Mr. Charisma or anything, but at least he can show guts and passion. I don't think the performance in the tag match there was just because of Terry, that would sell Dory's performance short.

I think this is all a tad unfair on Dory. On the All-Japan set he brought it vs. Brody.

I can only think of three out there currently: Flairchop, Good Will Wrestling and Wrestlespective, of which only two are good. On Wrestlespective they can't help but bring everything back to modern day comparisons and I always get the impression that the other guy is winging it / just hasn't seen a lot of old stuff. That is a show that should be focused on current stuff. I mean they can't talk about a DiBiase match without comparing him to Ted junior. They can't talk about a tag match without going on about today's tag scene. I'm like "why bother guys?" It's obvious to me where someone's frame of reference is. But when you've got two guys with knowledge like Bix and Dylan, it's almost a waste to focus purely on current stuff.

Loss, in every case looking for singles matches.

I liked this thread so going to throw a few more out before I collapse: - Erik Watts - Ole Anderson [i know there's one on one of the Schneider comps] - Bill Eadie - Barry Darsow - That guy who was Nailz - Virgil [other than vs. DiBiase) [everyone no-sold this originally] - Steve Lombardi - Test - Bull Buchanan - Mabel / Viscera

Bill Watts did too. Not just in Mid-South, but if you look at his PPVs from WCW, he put Gordy and Williams or the Steiners in the main event on numerous occasions.

Hang on, didn't both The Bulldogs and the Hart Foundation pre-date the Demos? I think even the original Moondog version of them didn't appear until early 87. Bulldogs were pretty much towards the end by then and Bret Hart had his little singles run in 88. Demoltion were hot in 88 and still hot in 89 even after dropping the belts to Arn and Tully - watch their Wrestlemania VI match against Haku and Andre for the crowd. What really killed them were the Road Warriors coming in forcing them to turn heel, Ax getting old and then Crush coming in. We get Repo Man before the end of 91 and before long the Pineapple Crush. Sorry, I'm really patchy on some areas, and know others a bit too well. I really disliked Demolition by the way, and still do. I ranted about it somewhere on the Flairchop site:

Doesn't have to be pure retro, but like all-time type discussions etc. would keep me happy. Then again, I'm probably in the big minority in not watching any current stuff AT ALL. Will be sure to leave feedback for this first one.

I'm real tired, but I'll add a line of justification for mentioning them here. Like I said, I scarcely know who PG-13 are, although I do remember them in Nation of Domination, but Dylan Waco has said MANY things with which I disagree here that I would like to take him up on later this week. Anyway: - The Brisco Brothers Reputation alone dictates they need a mention. I liked watching their match with Adrian Adonis and Dick Murdoch from around 1984, WWF. - The Valiant Brothers This is the Jimmy and Johnny team from the mid-70s, again mainly for the rep. There's a match of theirs against Wilbur Snyder and Billy Robinson I've been after for a while but yet to find it. - Furnas and LaFon (assuming Can-Am Express is Furnas and Kroffat) This is because I was unsure who "Can-Am Express" was talking about. I always liked them. - Iron Shiek and Nikolai Volkoff (not joking) I like teams where the two guys have a distinct identity. In terms of good matches, I'd pick the one vs. The Bulldogs. - Powers of Pain (not joking) I always always preferred these guys to Demolition (I HATE Demolition), and since smkelly mentioned the Demos I thought I'd mention them. For match I'd actually pick the one with the double turn vs. the Demos (from *is it* Survivor Series 88)? - The Islanders (Haku and Tama) Again, the match is with the Bulldogs. What's there not to like about these dudes. - Stevens and Patterson Because every time you hear about the great tag-teams, these guys get mentioned. - Hall and Nash Because no one else mentioned them and they were both over and working the crowd seems to be a big factor in Dylan's analysis. 10 world titles. - Chavo and Hector Guerrero Because most of what I've seen on the DVDR sets has been awesome. Unless Mil Mascaras is involved. - Arn Anderson and Bobby Eaton (Dangerous Alliance) Because individually they are seen as the two of the best tag specialists ever and not only were they are a team, but also they were WCW champs AND members of the DA. Can't beat that really can you? Short lived but cool. Incidentally, 72 on the PWI Top 100 list [check this out, notable for me were DiBiase and Williams at 20 and DiBiase and Hansen at 24, because Dylan said he counted neither as proper teams -- Money Inc. are 64 by the way. It's a pretty weird list!] - Ole and Arn Because someone needs to mention them and because no team is more synonymous with the idea of working a body part and in-ring psychology. - Doom (Reed and Simmons) I think Doom are awesome and since starting the Mid-South set have newfound love and respect for Butch Reed. I like any of their POWER matches with the Road Warriors or the Steiners. Like the Clash one vs. Sting and Luger too. - Magnum TA and Mr. Wrestling II Based almost entirely on that cage match from the Watts set and on the knowledge that they had a cool master/apprentice angle. - Windham and Rotunda No one ever talks about the US Express, maybe there's a reason for that. Match with the Dreamteam isn't bad. - Rick Steiner and Eddie Gilbert (Varsity Club) Nothing immediately stands out in my mind, but I got there by association - thought process went "Rontunda ... Varsity Club" then remembered these tagged quite regularly. - Hase and Muta I somehow know these tagged in the early 90s against Vader and Bam Bam Bigelow from my days reading PWI. Kinda random from me. - The Beverly Brothers Well why not? They were a perfectly serviceable team and I like their matches with both the Steiners and Money Inc.

I was hoping this question wouldn't be taken down that route really. Let me try something else hold on. Oh, I can't edit the title. Can a mod change it to something like "Biggest and fastest fall down the roster"? That would be grand! That's what I'm getting at. Someone who went from the top or near the top of the card to lower midcard or worse. No real interest in talking about Benoit, or even Luger, Hall, Jake or anything like that. I'm talking purely in terms of the push. The Renegade would be someone to mention, for example.

I've read this whole thread now and have many questions to ask of Dylan Waco, but will have to do this tomorrow. I just want to throw out a few more teams. One thing is clear, obviously I need to see more PG-13 to see what all the fuss is about. - The Brisco Brothers - The Valiant Brothers - Furnas and LaFon (assuming Can-Am Express is Furnas and Kroffat) - Iron Shiek and Nikolai Volkoff (not joking) - Powers of Pain (not joking) - The Islanders (Haku and Tama) - Stevens and Patterson - Hall and Nash - Chavo and Hector Guerrero - Arn Anderson and Bobby Eaton (Dangerous Alliance) - Ole and Arn - Doom (Reed and Simmons) - Magnum TA and Mr. Wrestling II - Windham and Rotunda - Rick Steiner and Eddie Gilbert (Varsity Club) - Hase and Muta - The Beverly Brothers Sorry if that's a bit scattergun, wracking my brains here to see if there's ANYONE you're going to rate over PG-13.

This is John Nord mind aka The Berzerker, not Powers of Pain / Faces of Fear Barbarian. I have to take exception to a few of your comments, but might be too tired to muster up the energy right now (3-hour delay on the way home!)

The recent Ronnie Garvin talk gave us a leading contender here, from NWA world champ to jobbing to Boris Zhukov and tagging with job guys in losses against The Orient Express in 3 years. Alright, I guess you might say there was a change of company involved, but still that's quite the fall from grace. Has anyone else fallen down the ladder quite as quickly and dramatically as that? I'll offer up for consideration Sgt. Slaughter who went from WWF champ in early 91 to feuding with "Col. Mustafa" by the end of the year and basically nothing (well, tagging with Duggan in squash matches) in 92. The decline was quicker for Slaughter than it was for Garvin, but the WWF treated him with a lot more respect. Only two TV losses in the period (to Flair after being tazered by the Mountie and a DQ loss with Duggan vs. Money Inc) and a win over the Beverleys with Duggan. I've been digging around and Slaughter was still appearing in TV matches as late as October 1992 mostly in wins over jobbers in singles matches or with Duggan, by December he was already appearing as an "official" with JJ Dillon. Who else?

What.The.Hell?! Why would you ever rate the Fantastics over the Midnights? I don't think he was. He just listed teams that he thought were better than PG-13, and put numbers next to them so that we could see there were more than 20 of them. You're reading more into smkelly's list than was there. John Oh right, apologies.

I'd listen to this every week if it was retro/ old school only. I'll listen to this one, but will probably not listen to future weeks -- due to the focus on the current product rather than the people involved.

I'd like a discussion, on this: What.The.Hell?! Why would you ever rate the Fantastics over the Midnights? EDIT: Some more teams to consider (NB. I have no idea who PG-13 are!): - DiBiase and Williams - DiBiase and Rotunda (Money Inc.) - DiBiase and Hansen - Jake and Barbarian - Sting and Luger - Arn and Zybysko - Austin and Pillman - Steamboat and Douglas - THE STEINER BROTHERS - Santana and Martel

What.The.Hell?!

I think the big difference is that Hogan was the superman face, so they could feed him "big men" or monster heels. Whether it was Afa/ Sika, Bossman, Akeem, Bundy, Earthquake, or whoever, you could basically through ANY 300lb+ guy in there and he'd at least feel like a credible threat. Flip that round and the idea of Garvin or Terry Taylor taking on Flair just isn't the same. But the IDEA is also fundamentally different: In NWA the idea that keeps fans engaged is that ANYONE on any given day has at least a chance of beating the champ. In WWF it's watching the superheo prevail over the latest big brute (see above) or, slightly less often, the evil genius (e.g. DiBiase). WWF almost always ran at least TWO programmes that you could legitimately call "main event". In '87 it was Hogan/Andre and then Steamboat/ Savage; in '88 it was Hogan/ Andre alongside Savage/ Dibiase; '89 it was Hogan/ Savage, Warrior/ Rude; '90 it was Hogan/Warrior with Dusty/ Savage (later Dusty/ DiBiase), etc. That was one thing I always thought WWF did better than Crockett, because even BEYOND that, not including the tag title scene, the number 3 feud was always strong and main-eventy as well: Piper/ Adonis in '87, whatever Honkytonk man was upto in '88, Jake/ Andre in '89, Jake/ DiBiase in '90. Point being, any of those number 3 feuds could probably have been number 1 or 2 feuds in NWA AND the WWF didn't always put the top face against the top heel. Best example is the period of '88 when the Megapowers, company's top 2 faces, feuded with the Twin Towers (Bossman and Akeem), who obviously weren't the top two heels (who were either STILL DiBiase and Andre or if not DiBiase and Rude). So you've got at least 3 faces and 3 heels at any one time who can legit work a main event angle if required. By like late 1990, early 1991 before Flair came in, when they had Slaughter, Mr. Perfect, Undertaker etc. plus DiBiase, Savage and so on, they probably had 5+ heels who could work angles or matches with Hogan or Warrior as and when required and it wouldn't look "weird" on top of the card in the same way Garvin vs. Flair or Taylor vs. Flair or Morton vs. Flair does. When you look at it that way, the WWF face-champ model makes a lot more sense than the NWA heel-champ one. The latter was set up for the territories, but for a national company I don't think it works at all. That doesn't mean you HAVE to have a face champ 100% of the time -- no reason why DiBiase couldn't have had a run in '88, for example, or Andre for that matter -- but that you know the heel champ would be dropping it back to a Hogan or a Savage and feuding with them while carrying it. In NWA, what did you have instead? The big face gains some momentum, chases the title, then either fails to beat Flair in which case it takes him a year+ to get back to that level again, or he beats him has a brief run as an interim champ before dropping it back to him, in which case it takes him a year+ to get back to that level again. Where does the face go from from there? In WWF, a heel could have a run with Hogan, then after failing to win the title get a nice upper-midcard/ second-main event level feud with a Savage or Warrior or Dusty or Piper or Jake.

I thought the booking of the Garvin title win was fairly well known: they wanted Flair to win the title at Starrcade so needed an interim champion in the meantime. No one really wanted to be champ for 40 days or so, and Garvin took his one and only opportunity. I've never quite understood the *point* of interim champions UNLESS it's a reign in the middle of an on-going feud a la Steamboat in 89. The Garvin reign just seems utterly pointless in hindsight. I can point to a few more too. Natural Disasters as WWF tag champs in 1992; Bagwell and Scorpio in 93; Texas Tornado as IC champ in '90; Jannetty in '93). A transitional champ (e.g. Iron Shiek in '83; Steamboat as IC champ in '87) makes a lot more sense.

Yeah, when I made the initial post I did consider mentioning this too. But then I thought, well, ANYONE winning that match was going to have that reaction, but you're right the completely random heel turn hurt that title run from the very start. The worst thing about that turn is the fact that ALL that happens is Harley Race walks out and that's meant to be enough to turn Luger heel. No one knew what the fuck was going on. The fans didn't know what to do so they just chanted WE WANT FLAIR.

I've just had an interesting little youtube session, looking for Zhukov vs. Garvin, I found instead Zhukov vs. Volkoff, which soon linked me on to Volkoff's 1994/5 run in DiBiase's Million Dollar Corporation. I then watched a bunch of random corporation stuff from that time. A few questions / comments: 1. The cent gimmick was HARSH on Volkoff and to my knowledge, there was never any blow off for him. Any reason to totally humiliate a guy like that? I mean, sure, he'd have been glad just to be working in 1994, but really no need to reduce him, especially if he never gets to repudiate himself. 2. I was thinking about the Million Dollar Corporation in general. On paper, it was a great idea, but it fundamentally didn't work for the following reasons: - First of all, all the heat was on DiBiase. Didn't matter if you were Volkoff, IRS, Tatanka, Bam Bam, Bundy, or whoever, you were just a dude in a big stable and all the heat was for the manager - I guess that would be ok, but DiBiase was injured and therefore unable to take any bumps at all -- therefore, there was never a time when he'd get his big comeuppence, never a blow off to any of the feuds - So you've got all the heat and practically all the storylines focused on someone who cannot be hit - Finally, they never got any big wins, like ever, so being in the corporation, rather than being something to be feared, was more like being put in some sort of JTTS graveyard I think it COULD have worked, if DiBiase had been able to take bumps. But as it was, it was never going to work unless he became much more like a "normal" manager enhancing stars rather than being the star enhanced by a rogues gallery of minions. I guess they got this right a few years later.

Sorry to keep going on about this, but I'm in a state of shock. September 25, 1987 - Ronnie Garvin defeats Ric Flair for the NWA World Title August 23, 1990 - Rhythm 'n' Blues defeat Ronnie Garvin and Anderson October 13, 1990 - The Orient Express defeat Ronnie Garvin and Major Yates I never realised Garvin became SUCH a jobber in his final days. It's comparable to Jerry Valiant jobbing to Uncle Elmer in 6 seconds. I don't think even Hercules got this sort of treatment in 92. EDIT: Oh god ... it gets worse ... - WWF Tag Team Champions Demolition Ax & Smash (w/ Demolition Crush) defeated Ronnie Garvin & Troy Williams when Ax pinned Williams after the Decapitation at 2:05 (7/17/90; Des Moines, IA; Veterans Memorial Auditorium) - Greg Valentine & the Honkytonk Man (w/ Jimmy Hart) defeated Ron Garvin & Glen Ruth when Valentine pinned Ruth after a double back suplex at 3:28 (8/7/90; Springfield, MA; Civic Center) - WWF Tag Team Champions Demolition defeated Ron Garvin, Jim McPherson, & Jose Luis Rivera at 5:31 when Ax pinned McPherson following the Decapitation; Demolition were not recognized as tag team champions when the bout aired (8/15/90; Utica, NY; Memorial Auditorium) - Boris Zhukov defeated Ron Garvin via disqualification at 6:01 when Nikolai Volkoff interfered after Zhukov attempted a pinfall with his feet on the ropes (6/5/90; Rochester, NY; WarMemorial Auditorium) He lost in a singles match to Boris Zhukov! IN 19 frickin 90! I'd have retired too.

I do think his little feud with Greg Valentine a year later is one of the more underrated ones. As an aside: what the hell did Garvin do after his WWF run? Seems like he more or less disappeared into "the indies" if you read his Wikipedia entry. I mean was he so sick and tired of being jobbed out to Dino Bravo that he couldn't take it any more and just quit wrestling altogether? EDIT: wow, he was around pretty late in 1990. Look at this: Gets a decent amount of offence vs. Perfect there too. Looked in good shape. Here he is teaming with a pure jobber against Rhythm and Blues: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hFfqM8q3uw RE-EDIT: I just read that on October 13th, 1990 Superstars, Garvin teamed with the pure jobber Major Yates in a loss vs. The Orient Express!! Bloody hell, has anyone else ever been relegated to being THAT low on the roster? I mean Garvin was in SD Jones territory right there.