JerryvonKramer

It's just occurred to me that I've never seen Flair's 2nd WWF title win over Savage! Anyone know any additional info about this? Why did they put the title back on Flair and from Savage? Was it just to transition to Bret? I've never quite understood the deal in late 92. Why would they put the title back on Flair if they knew he was going to be gone by 93? I think late 92 - mid93 was a weird time in general. A lot of transitions and changes. Last of the old guard finally leaving and people like Tatanka showing up.

Was Iron Sheik booked as the top guy in the company? I know it was only 4 weeks, but if Backlund and Show are getting mentions here then you have to mention Sheik too. I also don't think that Mankind was ever presented as the top guy in the company. However, all of these answers are wrong. Why? Because the actual answer is Ric Flair in 92. He was consistently booked as a BS champ who couldn't beat Undertaker or Hogan or Savage or Warrior. Flair was a proper chicken-shit style heel champ in WWF. And I don't think it would be accurate to say he was booked as top guy when Hogan was still around and Savage in one of the best years of his career.

I'm not sure I understand the second part of your criteria there, but isn't it Yokozuna?

People are STILL doing this? It was tiresome back on 02 FFS.

First of all, what are the genuine contenders? He's some I pulled out of the hat: Starcade 83 - first genuine supercard Hogan defeats Iron Sheik - obvious reasons Wrestlemania I - if it had flopped, Vince would have gone under Clash of the Champions I goes head-to-head with Wrestlemania VI making Sting a big star in the process Bash of the Beach 96 - obvious reasons Last Monday Nitro 1. What other nights would be in contention? 2. What is the "most historic" night?

I think with Bret there were a hell of a lot of other things that led to the company not drawing. I listed them about two years ago over on another board

I probably dust it off once a year just to listen to Meltzer and Cornette. I bought the couple of SMW DVDs with them on there as well. There are some good matches mixed in but you're really just there to listen to them. Highly recommend it. Got hold of Vol. 1. I agree, the matches kinda pass you by, but the commentary is so informative that you love it. The matches become almost like footage in a documentary or something like that. That said, Gino Hernandez vs. Tully Blanchard looked like a good match. The stuff about Paul Boesch and how that all worked is fascinating. Jim Cornette is a proper old-school wrestling anorak isn't he!

Has anyone watched those Meltzer and Jim Cornette commentary sets? The matches themselves look intriguing, but tell me what you know.

Are you talking Austin/ McMahon?

Throw me in with the 1988 camp as well. I mean Luger's NWA matches alone are better than anything that happened in WCW in 98 and I still think the Savage vs. DiBiase is sold short by most people here.

Superbrawl VI review now up: http://www.parviniworld.com/Superbrawl_VI.html

Guys don't know if this will be of any interest, but I've recorded some podcasts ranking the top 50 video games with some online acquaintances recently (see here). In more wrestling related news, I've been watching Superbrawl VI on and off for the past week and only have the Hogan vs. Giant match to go. Before I do my little review, is there any reason why the World Title match wasn't on last?

I've got more holes than swiss cheese: anything after 2004 for any promotion. Also the 80s NJ and AJ sets are my only exposure to Japanese wrestling PERIOD. And MidSouth my only real exposure to territorial stuff. THAT SAID, I'm pretty solid on WWF 83-01 and NWA/WCW in the same time period. I think I might have fewer gaps there than a lot of people.

Finally got round to Starrcade '95: http://www.parviniworld.com/Starrcade95.html

Oh I actually have that match on VHS, it's on one of the Supertapes or Wrestlefests (or one of those Mooney/ Hayes comps). I actually knew about the Repo Man angle too, but no idea about the ripping on Mexicans part. Tbh, Tito was a JTTS by this stage, so feuding with him was pretty low down on the card for Ted.

I consider myself a fairly big DiBiase fan, and also have no recollection of a Tito feud. I knew they had some matches at house shows, but an actual angle?

jdw - what about Ted's Survivor Series main event programmes with Hogan? I still think they were gearing up for a bit of a push for him in 91 around the time he was with Sherri, but then Flair came in unexpectedly. Point I wanted to make though is that this was clearly not just any old midcarder stuck in a team. In 91, he was still big enough to single handedly get a guy as limited as Virgil over, and for someone like Piper to feud with. Even if he was past his prime by 92, he was still pretty over, and obviously a bigger star than Rotunda, which remained true even in 94-6 when he came back as a manager. Also, I accept the point about it being a very thrown together team and some last-minute booking, but the booking team did a pretty good job of packaging them to make them seem like a cohesive unit. I mean it had more logic than just two random guys: you had a rich guy and a crooked taxman teaming up. It does make sense on paper! They were slapped together, but then the recovery operation to sell them as a team at least partly worked. I mean it would have been a lot more random if it was something like IRS and Papa Shango, or DiBiase and Skinner! I'd agree with the general trajectory of the WWF tag belts though: 85-91: peak 92-4: declining 95-7: totally shot I think the New Age Out Laws, Edge and Christian, and the Dudleys restored some legitimacy to them after that, albeit in pure spot fests.

I think that depends largely on where you see DiBiase in the general scheme of things 92-3. To my eyes, he was still a major upper midcard villain and they were still treating those belts as a major deal. He was still big enough in March / April '93 for Hogan to make his Wrestlemania comeback in a feud vs. Money Inc. (billed as co-main event). You could say having a big star like DiBiase involved in the tag title scene actually helped to elevate the titles in that period. Or you could argue he was just past his peak and winding down, with Flair's arrival in '91 really the end of the road for him as a legit main event level heel. I can see arguments on both sides. Thing about Money Inc is that they were consistently booked as chicken shits on the sort of chicken shit level of the Honktonk Man's IC title run. I mean proper cheap, heel chicken shit crap like taking the countout or the DQ. I'm not sure what effect that had on the title. For me, I'd put the decline of the tag belts a bit later. "Sparky Plugg" Bob Holly springs to mind for some reason. Didn't he have a run with Jannetty or something?

So obviously Ronnie Garvin springs to mind, I've always thought that that whole angle made the NWA look second rate, Flair look weak, and putting the title on a midcard guy was stupid, but what other reigns have served to diminish the status of a title? I'd like to present the evidence for the IC title in 1999. Since its inception in 1979, it had always been treated as a fairly big deal and was always held by a credible worker. The list of names is very impressive to read. Then this happens: Ken Shamrock X-Pac Uniondale, NY 10-12-98 Val Venis Ken Shamrock Memphis, TN 02-14-99 Road Dogg Val Venis San Jose, CA 03-15-99 Goldust Road Dogg East Rutherford, NJ 03-29-99 The Godfather Goldust Detroit, MI 04-12-99 Jeff Jarrett The Godfather Moline, IL 05-31-99 Edge Jeff Jarrett Toronto, Ontario 07-24-99 Jeff Jarrett Edge Buffalo, NY 07-25-99 D-Lo Brown Jeff Jarrett Dayton, OH 07-26-99 Jeff Jarrett D-Lo Brown Minneapolis, MN 08-22-99 Chyna Jeff Jarrett Cleveland, OH 10-17-99 Chris Jericho Chyna Sunrise, FL 12-12-99 Chris Jericho Chyna and Hardcore Holly New York, NY 01-23-00 Kurt Angle Chris Jericho Hartford, CT 02-27-00 Chris Benoit Kurt Angle Anahemin, CA 04-02-00 Chris Jericho Chris Benoit Richmond, VA 05-04-00 Chris Benoit Chris Jericho Uniondale, NY 05-08-00 Rikishi Chris Benoit Memphis, TN 06-22-00 Val Venis Rikishi Ft. Lauderdale, FL 07-06-00 Chyna Val Venis Raleigh, NC 08-27-00 Eddie Guerrero Chyna Knoxville, TN 09-03-00 Billy Gunn Eddie Guerrero Sunrise, FL 11-23-00 Chris Benoit Billy Gunn Birmingham, AL 12-10-00 Chris Jericho Chris Benoit New Orleans, LA 01-21-01 Triple H Chris Jericho Oklahoma City, OK 04-05-01 Jeff Hardy Triple H Philadelphia, PA 04-12-01 Triple H Jeff Hardy Knoxville, Tenn. 04-16-01 Kane Triple H Sacramento, Calif. 05-20-01 Albert Kane New York, N.Y. 06-28-01 Lance Storm Albert Buffalo, N.Y. 07-23-01 This is what you call hotshotting a title. Does anyone remember Albert's IC title run? How about Road Dogg's or the Godfather's? How come Triple H was IC champ again in 2001? What was the point of Jeff Hardy's two week run there? How about the month long reign of Rikishi? For me the IC title was borderline meaningless through much of this period, and damaged for ever. Even the long runs of Randy Orton and Shelton Benjamin didn't really rehabilitate it. There were 30 different reigns in just over two years, compared with 30 reigns for the entire period of 1979 to Jeff Jarrett's first title in 1995.

I never got into Sid at all, but fun show with Naylor as always. Intrigued to know who you've got lined up for the Savage show, it's been a hell of a wait!

My personal favorite Piper moment: The debut of Colonel Mustafa. Piper bursts into laughter and says to Vince, "I tell ya, they just get goofier as the years go by, huh, Vince?" Vince's reply is, "Yes, indeed, a former WWF champion now calling himself Col. Mustafa." Any idea why they just let stuff like that air back when Vince would re-shoot and edit his TV to perfection? They buried Mustafa a lot on commentary. Sean Mooney and Alfred Hayes in particular would make fun of his weight and generally run him down. Always found that a bit strange.

Gorilla gave Bret Hart the "Excellence of Execution" moniker. I give him credit for that, and I think it played a small role in getting Bret over. If you're going to say it's wrong, it's on you to point to wrestlers who would have not be as over as they were if not for how Gorilla put them over on commentary. Are you really saying Hogan, Andre, Piper, Savage, Rude, Perfect, Heenan, DiBiase or anyone else may not have hit the level they did without Gorilla making them look good at the booth? I can point to Jim Ross doing things to get guys like Lex Luger over in a way they may not have gotten over otherwise. The WWF did a lot of things right in the 80s -- freezing competition out of big buildings, raiding talent from the territories, pushing an invincible top babyface, immaculate television production, great promotion and hype of their big events and probably more. Great booking, great matches, great announcing and delivering an entertaining presentation that withstands the test of time are not among the things they did do well. Not that they were trying to do those things, so that's not even really a huge criticism. Just pointing out that defending them on those principles is a waste of time. I can understand the criticism of matches, but in terms of the presentation, commentary and booking I don't understand where you are coming from here. If you just take Hogan, for example, from 86 to 88, the booking is incredible. The way the feuds segue into each other, Hogan/ Orndorff to Hogan/ Andre to Hogan/ DiBiase, the attempt to buy the title, the evil twin refs, the WM4 tourney to Megabucks vs. Megapowers to the slow-tease on the Megapowers exploding and the big payoff at WM5. What's that? 4 years' worth of very-well-paced, very-well-booked angles with great continuity and the emotional triggers pulled in the right places. What did they do WRONG there? I don't necessarily want to come across as 80 WWF mark no. 1, but I don't think they get the credit they deserve from a lot of you. In terms of the presentation, what's wrong with Mean Gene? Or Sean Mooney sitting in a broadcast studio giving us "breaking news"? What's wrong with slow-building feuds and keeping top talent separated apart from the really big shows? I'll maintain that WWF booking from 86 till around the Slaughter thing in 1991 wasn't just good, it was sensational. And if you ignore Slaughter, and look instead for example at the Savage retirement >> wedding >> Jake/ Undertaker angle and the big pay-off with Jake at This Tuesday in Texas >> Savage / Flair, or look at the way something like DiBiase vs. Virgil was booked and you can easily make an argument that the great booking stretched well into 1992. Seems like they did everything right to me. I can't think of any company that had such consistently awesome booking for a sustained period like that.

I maintain that that 10-minute challange match, DiBiase vs. Dustin, is one of the most underrated matches of that era.

I'm 100% with you there. One thing I never got about Meltzer and co ragging on the WWF product of that period for how much they apparently did wrong, is the fact that they seem totally oblivious to the fact that ... This group of people created the most over product of all time. If Gorilla buried people so much just to get himself over, why was practically the entire roster from Hogan to Brian B. Blair and and Dangerous Danny Davis over like rover? Someone somewhere was doing something right, right? Are the Gorilla detractors going to argue that everything was crazy over DESPITE Monsoon? I'm not saying you should like him if you don't, but I think saying he's downright awful or the "worst" appears to fly in the face of the evidence. I can't think of another promotion or period in which the entire card was over in that way and Gorilla was the main play-by-play guy at that time. So he has to take some credit for that.

I'm fairly SURE someone did full win-loss-draw stats for every major WWF worker of the 80s and 90s. Can't think for the life of me where it was, but maybe History of the WWE, or Solie.