JerryvonKramer

One that immediately comes to mind is Luger winning by countout vs. Yokozuna at Summerslam 93 and celebrating it like he'd just won World War 2 single handedly. I really think that hurt Luger in the long run as a credible main eventer. Still don't really understand how he managed to get another WCW World title reign after that.

Some of the bigger egos in the industry, Hogan for example, are well known for not wishing to job if they can possibly help it. This is something I've never quite understood. Why was Hogan always so reticent to lose a match? Can anyone think of any examples where a big loss has significantly damaged someone's career?

Bix, I considered adding Jake's name in there when I mentioned Undertaker. I totally agree with that.

Here in the UK, it seems that people of my age (around 28) will almost invariably know Warrior too. I think it's easy to underestimate the overness of the Ultimate Warrior and the extent to which he penetrated the mainstream. Someone even wrote on my Facebook "A sad loss, one of the Big 3 for me: Hogan, Savage and Warrior". Direct quotation. Most people would have at least heard of The Undertaker too. Bret Hart is probably on the next notch down, but also very well known. I'd argue that Austin is probably on about that level too here, because really a lot of people didn't pay any attention during the Monday Night Wars (lots did, but lots didn't, you know).

From the reactions to my Facebook status today, I'd say he is one of about 3 or 4 wrestlers total non-fans have heard of.

I've been thinking about Macho's WWF career since this hit earlier and just think of how many incredible matches and feuds he had: Hogan, Warrior, Flair, DiBiase, Steamboat, Santana, Jake, even Beefcake! Has anyone had a hotter seven-year period than Macho from 85 to 92? Certainly not in WWF. Top 5 of all-time for sure. Whichever way you look at it.

What?!!! NO! Awful news. I'm fucking gutted. Seriously, this has hit me pretty hard. EDIT: This is the first time I've ever been upset by someone famous dying, it's like part of my childhood just died.

It's the one where the fan jumps up onto the cage and tries to attack Virgil. The only copy of it I have is on the old Macho Madness VHS. I remember DiBiase vs. Savage was cut from the VHS Wrestlefest 88, so this is why I wasn't sure.

I am a bit more limited in my exposure to Japanese stuff than most, so this will be restricted to stuff I have actually seen and know. Must see cage match: Mangum TA vs. Tully Blanchard "I Quit", Starrcade 85 I'm playing a pretty straight bat here. I will mention the Rick Rude cage matchs vs. Warrior and Piper in 1989 though. Always enjoyed those, but mainly remember them for Rude's rights coming down. I will ALSO mention the DiBiase vs. Savage cage match from *I think* Wrestlefest '88, best kayfabe-era WWF one I can think of. Actually, the real answer is, as jdw said, Wargames '92. Wargames '91 is pretty incredible too. Must see high flyers match: The Rockers vs. The Orient Express, I think it's the one from Royal Rumble '91, but it's been a while. Must see match with blood: Hacksaw Duggan vs Ted Dibiase, with all the stipulations, from Mid-South '84. Must see mat work: Bockwinkel vs. Billy Robinson from AJPW '80. Must see gimmick match: Hard to look past Vader vs. Sting strap match for me, but I'll try to keep it interesting ... ummm ... How about Royal Rumble 92 or maybe HHH vs. Cactus Jack from Royal Rumble 2000? Must see world title bout: Hard to look past Steamboat/ Flair at Clash VI for this. Must see 1980s match: Ditto Must see 1990s match: I'm going to keep pimping Ricky Steamboat vs. Rick Rude, Ironman match from Beach Blast '92 Also a big big fan of both Savage vs. Flair from Wrestlemania 8 and, for the all the horseshit, Savage vs. Warrior from SS 92. Must see tag match: Luger/Sting vs. The Steiners from Superbrawl I (91)

Guys I only come here to talk about wrestling, so little desire to discuss this further. But will give my last two pennies' worth. I think the UK has to be "up there" in terms of liberal attitudes - if you look at issues that are still on the US agenda (gay rights, abortion, evolution vs. creationism etc.) and look at things from that perspective, those issues were largely dealt with ten or even twenty or thirty years ago here. I'd say Belgium or Holland would probably be top trump for liberialism, but UK can't be too far behind. It's a country that is not as prone to extremism as many other parts of Europe, never has been, so we don't see the scale of neo-Nazi racism you still get in Germany, Italy, Spain, and even extremely socially conscious places like Denmark. That said, I think there's more than enough xenophobia here, you just need to open the Sun or the Daily Mail on any given day of the week to see that.

I do not want to get into any debates here, but just want to clear something up. "Coloured" is considered offensive these days in the UK for sure. "Black" is the acceptable phrase for talking about a black person. I believe the reason it is considered offensive is because back during the immigration waves of the 1960s, landlords used to put up signs saying "no coloureds" in the window and that would cover people from the West Indies, India, Pakistan and commonwealth African nations. However, people of a certain generation -- I'd say people in their 60s -- still use the term sometimes when they think they are being PC, in the same way they might say "handicapped" instead of "disabled". Anyway, whatever the case, "coloured" is definitely not generally acceptable, you'd never hear someone say it on the BBC. And if someone said it to my wife, for example, whose parents are Indian, she'd probably be mildly offended.

My thought would be to ease away from the Bix & Phil vs XX stuff. Let Loss and Will figure out what they want to do with it, but there isn't any good from any of the rest of us piling on or working the fringes of their discussion. John Right you are. Just thought I'd try to lighten the mood with a little call back.

What are your views on Kamala, anarchistxx?

There was a sustained argument a while back that it is mostly about the match. "Wrestling" is the name on the marquee, etc. It's in this thread somewhere, around pages 3-4.

Andre/ Hogan comes back to my argument that wrestling is not only about the match and it's a mistake to use it as the only unit of analysis. That match is all about the storytelling before hand, the build, the ripping of the cross, the personalities, the promos, Heenan, etc. etc. You can't take the 11-minute blow off match in the abstract.

Loss, I think there are rumblings of it as early as Survivor Series vs. Hogan.

Al, by the same rationale then, how come Andre vs. Hogan doesn't make the list?

Occurred to me randomly the other day: why did fans start cheering for The Undertaker in 91? I mean he was essentially evil, especially when he was allied with Jake Roberts. Anyone got any insights?

Al two things interest me there: 1. I've never seen anyone rate Hogan vs. Iron Sheik that highly. In fact, I've never thought of that match as anything other than a title switch. Can you write a bit more on this, genuinely interested. 2. Ken Patera had a good match once!?

Thanks a lot for these suggestions all. smkelly, I'd check out the match I name in the OP. Not really a classic, but very watchable for Robinson's work.

Just randomly watching Billy Robinson vs. Lee Bronson from WoS 1978 on youtube in prep for the Bock match on the All Japan set I'm going to start watching soon. But bloody hell! He's amazing! Not only that, I'm intrigued by the presentation. It's fascinating (and a little bit amusing) to see this very straight-laced, stiff upper-lip late 70s ITV broadcast. This might be the purest presentation of wrestling as a legit sport that I've seen. What can you good people tell me about WoS and Billy Robinson? How much stuff is out there? And how much is worth tracking down? What are the best matches? Just generally use this thread to talk about Robinson and WoS.

I'm trying to think of some WWF matches worth including, I haven't seen it in some years but I remember being blown away by Brainbusters vs. Hart Foundation from Summerslam 89.

Question: In the old pay-per-appearance type contracts they used to have in the 80s, was there any allowances made for how long the match worked was? So lets say two guys are both on $2000 per appearance contracts but worker A works a 30 minute broadway and worker B works a 5 minute squash match, do they get paid the same anyway?

I definitely think Luger and Sting vs. The Steinders from 91 should be added to that list. The Superbrawl I match.

Dory is SO hated here.