JerryvonKramer

Just caught this, got a little chuckle out of me.

Genuine lol

Objectively one of the strongest cases, one of only a handful of guys who scored 7+ in all six of the categories I was looking for. What he has over the All Japan guys for me is the travel, and the different crowds, opponents and contexts that come with that.

Influence is another thing I don't really consider, but which some people might care about. Dory's influence is downplayed or not often acknowledged, either because people are down on Dory or because they don't know they are seeing Dory spots. He trained a lot of guys, so it figures that you see a lot of his stuff in matches. He was more of an innovator than might be immediately obvious. Standard Dory spots (or more often entire sequences) that just became part of the fabric of pro wrestling in the US and Japan: -Greco-Roman knuckle lock into test of strength spot into a bridge pinning combination and / or surfboard or rack. Everyone has seen that sequence dozens of times. It is a Dory sequence. - Struggle over butterfly suplex before one of the people finally hits it. This was one of Dory's signiture spots that went on to feature a lot in All Japan big matches. - Single leg takeover into a grapevine / Hamstring snap, hamstring snap, Indian death-lock falling back onto the mat (standard setup sequence for spinning toehold) People might think of all these as Bret moves, but they are in fact Dory moves. - Texas cloverleaf Probably the only one he got credit for, Dean Malenko used it of course. Dory actually used it quite rarely from what I've seen, maybe like four times in thirty matches or something like that. - Criss-cross rope running, one ducks, the other jumps, mostly culminates in a block forearm smash for Dory, or sometimes with him grabbing the ropes to break momentum, or with Dory taking the move. This might seem like a really standard spot, but in my explorations of 70s wrestling, it doesn't seem that standard to me. Dibiase (Dory trainee) often does this exact sequence only it culminates with him putting his head down for a backdrop. Jumbo (Dory trainee) does it too, only for him it ends with the running knee. A lot of 60s guys wouldn't even run the ropes. Johnny Valentine famously refused to do so. - Flapjack culminating in both guys getting up back to back arms locked and over into a backslide Ric Flair basically stole this sequence, which is why you've seen it so many times. Another standard Dory spot. - Headlock, headlock take over, babyface fights up to a vertical base. Back suplex! Another spot you've seen a gazillion times right out of the Dory playbook. You can go back and watch matches from the era or before and you only really see Dory and Terry do these at that time. - The double shoulder charge (with Terry) This is more All Japan specific but every gajin team after The Funks had this spot, of course Stan Hansen was a Dory trainee too. And all of his teams whether the partner was Brody, Ted or Gordy had this spot and then Steve Williams used it with all his teams too (Gordy, Spivey, Ace). It was a Funks spot. There are a good few others, but I'll stop there. I don't think the Funks quite get their due for how influential they were in popularising a particular style of work.

Watched some early 90s Regal tonight about his first eight months in WCW: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/32779-regal-jvk-edn/ Main take away:

I just wanted to say that I've always thought his early 90s WCW has been underrated. He's so intense and stiff during that run. I ran the numbers and the computer said no, but if I was doing my list just based on "guys I quite like", he'd probably make it. Like if you asked me what I'd rather watch, random early 90s Paula or random peak Shawn Michaels, I'd go Paul seven days out of seven. But GWE has never been about that to me.

Steven Regal Interview (WCWSN 1/30/93) Vanilla babyface promo in which Regal tells us, about three times, he's been wrestling all around the world for the past nine years. Steven Regal, 2 Cold Scorpio & Marcus Bagwell vs. Scotty Flamingo, Shangai Pierce & Tex Slazenger (WCWSN 2/20/93) Ahhh, I have such a soft spot in my heart for this show and for this era in WCW. Tex Slazenger and Shanghai Pierce, the quintessential Centre Stage workers! Bagwell is totally stacked here. Interesting mix of workers right here. Commentators are Jim Ross and Larry Z. Surprisingly solid psychology in this as the babyfaces work over Pierce's arm with Bagwell working things like a short arm scissors in the early going. Bagwell ends up as the FIP. Kinda odd seeing Regal as a babyface here riding the coat tails of Bagwell and Scorpio. ** Steven Regal vs. Barbarian (Main Event 3/7/93) Commentators are Tony Schaivone and Larry Z. Seems like Larry was working overtime in 1993. The Barbarian is one of those guys who was underrated by the online community for so long that he's now become hilariously overrated (see GWE). I mean I like him, but come on Top 100 of all time is silly talk. Barby actually hits a lot of high artillery offense here, back suplex, brainbuster, stiff clotheslines. Regal steals a flash pin for a semi upset win, after getting squashed for the whole match. He sold well, but Regal here has the air of a guy who is never gonna get over as a babyface. And I'm not saying that because I know what happens. Entertaining TV bout. ** Steven Regal vs. Johnny B Badd (Main Event 3/21/93) This is the semi-final of the TV title tournament. They shake hands as the match starts. Babyface vs. babyface. I think Tony probably much preferred working with Larry than he did with Jesse, Larry didn't give him a hard time at all. This was a pretty headlock-y, wrist lock-y match that didn't really go anywhere. Badd went over, so Regal gave up a pin in his third match on TV. * Steven Regal vs. Barry Windham (Power Hour 4/24/93) Windham is the NWA champion. Regal is still the vanilla babyface. This is Windham on TV, so I'm expecting this to be at least half ways decent. Larry Z and Tony put over Billy Robinson, Karl Gotch and King Henry VIII on commentary during this match. Ha ha, Windham is pretty good playing the heel champ here. The early portion of the match is arm vs. arm. Then Windham starts busting out his bombs and and some strikes. I always love that float over suplex. Work is snug and stiff, all well executed. Barry ensures that Regal gets hope spots peppered in, despite taking much of this. Regal was effective selling and playing the underdog babyface challenger. Really good match that feels like a hidden gem. ***3/4 Steven Regal vs. Chris Benoit (Handheld 5/8/93) This is a WCW match but did it take place in training? There is literally no one in the crowd. Like NO ONE. Looks like an empty arena match. Benoit seemed very dominant in this match and basically went through all his signature offense before going over. From what I could make out anyway. *1/2 Steven Regal Interview (WWW 7/10/93) This seems like the first appearance on TV of Lord Steven Regal with his new butler Sir William, whose accent is worse than Dick van Dyke's. The worst English accent possibly of all time. Regal cuts a promo claiming that Britain basically rules Europe and thinks it is a disgrace that currently they have British Bulldog representing them in WCW. Calls him a "reject Rastafarian". Ha ha. He claims to be the greatest scientific wrestler in the world and vows to win a world title and lay it at the feet of the Queen. Steven Regal vs. Marcus Bagwell (Clash 7/16/93) What a difference a few months make eh. Regal gets announced from the Royal Forrest of Dean, which was actually the venue for my wedding. What a difference a few years make eh. Jesse and Tony on commentary. Jesse is a fan of Regal's, of course. Regal already has all the facial expressions down as he comes out showing much disdain for envy one around him. The little touch of walking with his hand behind his back is some great attention to detail in the character work. For the second time tonight, I'm watching Bagwell do some fundamentally sound arm work: knee onto a hammerlock. Arm ringer into an arm bar. Jesse puts over rugby as a rugged proper man's game, while calling American Football "a wimp's game". Loving Jesse tonight. Regal looked great here. Technically superior, agile, and his character work already superlative. Bagwell was surprisingly proficient and this run in 93 was probably his career peak. ***1/2 Steven Regal- Flair for the Gold (WWW 7/24/93) Michael Buffer introduces Flair. Arn and Fifi are hanging out there too. Looking back Flair for the Gold was a horrible concept and segment. For some reason also, Flair really looks like he might hang out with Jerry Seinfeld here. Weird thing to say I know, but there's a sort of Seinfeld vibe to this whole set and deal. A nice touch here is that Regal sends Sir William off with Fifi to get some "tips" on housekeeping. Ha. Flair: So let me ask you, Arn's buzzing me, I'm buzzing him. Is that Fergie really as fresh as they say she is? Regal: She's nothing but a commoner. Interesting angle here, whereby Flair and Regal were very respectful to each other, despite the fact that Flair is seemingly a face here. Regal mentions that Lady Diana called him recently and said she wants to meet Flair. I thought this was vaguely embarrassing for all involved. Regal has his working mannerisms down, but he still has a long way to go before nailing the out of ring character work and promos. Asking him to work this interview segment with Flair (who was weirdly unnatural here) was probably too much of a stretch. Steven Regal vs. Ricky Steamboat (Main Event 8/1/93) Funny moment right at the start of this match where Steamboat offers his hand to shake, Regal looks at the hand, considers it, and then gives it the faintest tap on the finger, Steamboat is like "what the hell is this guy all about?" Just perfect heel and face dynamics from two of the very best. The same cannot be said for Steamboat's barber who has done an AWFUL job on his haircut here, never seen Steamer's hair look worse. Steamboat is actually vaguely goofy during this match. I mean he's still obviously a lovely guy and a babyface through and through, but there's nothing cool about him. He's like a dad at a kid's party, something like that. Regal gets in his face and lectures him at one point. Huge amounts of schtick in this match, which isn't entirely what one might expect. Steamboat made me laugh several times during this, but mainly because of how thoroughly uncool he was. More of an angle than a match this, goes to 10-minute draw. Shows you that when Ted is taking a green Dustin to a great match in ten minutes it's no small achievement. This was entertaining for the schtick but the work was perfunctory. The promo from Regal afterwards and the interjection from Steamboat was absolutely hilarious but for all the wrong reasons. Steamer actually gets out a glove and slaps Regal across the face with it. Horrendous segment that is a bit embarrassing looking back. Regal really hadn't nailed this aspect of the character yet, and Steamboat doing an English accent while also being the least cool man alive in 1993 kind of needs to be seen to be believed. **1/2 Steven Regal vs. Ricky Steamboat (No DQ) (Main Event 8/8/93) Now this is an excellent matchup, superb chain wrestling here and Steamboat shows he can really go on the mat and with the neat counters. Regal is super stiff and his uppercuts are fantastic. Loved the struggle over the butterfly, page straight out of the Dory Jr book there. Paul Orndorff -- who honestly I've always thought was super underrated during this WCW run -- ambushes Steamer before the match can end and delivers quite an intense beating. Easily the best thing Regal was involved in during his first eight months in WCW, although don't forget about that Windham match. ***3/4 Steven Regal, Paul Orndorff & Max Payne vs. Ricky Steamboat, 2 Cold Scorpio & Marcus Bagwell (WCWSN 8/14/93) I point blank refuse to believe that the Lord Steven character would team up with Maxx Payne! That's just nonsense. Come on now, kayfabe people. Babyface team is perhaps uniquely uncool as "dad of the year" Steamboat and the original white guys can't dance Marcus Bagwell join forces. I would say Scorpio was fairly cool, but then he is a man who signed his name "2 Cold" so perhaps not. Anyway, interesting mix of guys. I swear Orndorff doesn't get enough credit for how stiff and intense he was in his work during this run. Jesse: What is it with these "Paul" chants? That was you and Gary Capetski who started that. Tony: Wrong again, Jess. Jesse: What do you mean "wrong again"? I've never been wrong twice in one show. Ha ha, so awesome. You know I just cannot wait for GWE to be over, mainly so I can just go back to the things that are important to me, like -- well mainly like loving random Jesse exchanges during random TV matches like this! I don't mind Maxx Payne, but I hate that fat guy wearing a t-shirt in the ring trend he started. Wear proper ring gear please! It is 1993 and we have a huge "whoop there it is" chant when Scorpio comes in, which might make a certain Superstar Sleeze happy. Super fun six man, with some awkward moments, but also some awesome ones, which mainly involved Regal beating the crap out of Bagwell. The performance of Orndorff stood out to me for its intensity. *** ------ These two hours absolutely flew by, and two really good matches here from Regal. Sadly, however, I was struck by how poor his promos and out-of-ring character work in skits and angles were during this early run. I think he had the in-ring aspects of the character down from the get go, but his promos etc really needed some work.

I'm thinking maybe the locker room of Royal Rumble 1991. Or maybe that three-ring world war 3 thing from 1995, the one headlined by Giant and Yetay. Just through sheer numbers it'll be something like that.

I think the accusation of hypocrisy comes from me using DVDR rankings when talking about Flair or Ted. But I've only done that to demonstrate variety not great matches. And in the case of Ted just to ask why he's the only DVDR 80 set stud who people are saying they won't rank, when he probably should. There is no hypocrisy at all, I give Lawler credit for his abilities as a worker including his punching and selling, his longevity, his versatility, his huge variety of memorable matches. It adds up to a strong GWE case but not a #1 case in my view, against the criteria I've set. If I'd sat down and watched the Memphis set and seen a long string of GREAT ***** matches to rival Misawa's or Jumbo's, I'd be singing a different tune. I didn't see that, I saw a lot of very solid work, great angles and very memorable matches.

Some dude from the United Kingdom uploaded it:

Also, our friend in Japan has finally put Dory's career highlight online, and one of my fave matches and performances ever, the 78 Abby/Sheik match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYxTsZ1pdJQ

What have I been a hypocrite about?

Try Vs Horst Hoffman Vs Jerry Lawler Vs Brody Vs Mike Graham Vs Brisco FLORIDA 72 (note: don't waste your time on the Japan snooze fest) Top of my head, those were his best singles outings. See Dory thread for more detail.

Yes! I am calling it the Yatsu effect but that could be correlation/ cause confusion. Then again it seems his tags with Saito or Hamaguchi as the partner seem slower.

Pretty tragic, but I do not believe that Garvin can be saved. To do list (not including possible Joshi workers): Akira Maeda Batista Doug Somers Dynamite Kid Gino Hernandez Haku Raymond Rougeau Rick Steiner Ricky Fuyuki Ricky Morton Riki Choshu Rob Van Dam Scott Steiner Sean Waltman Tarzan Goto Tatsumi Fujinami The Mountie The Rock Tiger Mask Tito Santana Tommy Rich Tommy Rogers Tony Garea Too Cold Scorpio Tor Kamata Toru Tanaka Toshiaki Kawada Triple H Tsuyoshi Kikuchi William Regal Yokozuna Yoshiaki Fujiwara Yoshihiro Tajiri Zoltan Boscik These are the last people who will receive ratings.

It's interesting that G is by far the least important category in my view. Right and remember I want all six equally. Someone who leads on the G rating, like Chad, is always gonna have the AJ guys top. And hence he objects to the A rating all the time. If you go and read Buddy Rose's thread, most of the arguments for him lead on the A rating. Buddy Rose's case is kinda similar to Lawler's in a way, in that he's strong in A and V. What interests me is that I've seen the same people lean on different things for different guys depending on the argument. It doesn't surprise me, that's what people do, they come to conclusions and then reach for reasons post-hoc. This whole process has been an interesting and sometimes stunning demonstration of that.

Just realised that I have Monday to play with. That will be dedicated to: NJ vs. UWF highlights Joshi Most of the list is locked in now. Just a few more key AJ and NJ guys to put through, and I'll have to make a call on what to do with the Joshi ones, because I have a funny feeling I will be high on those matches. Just call it gut instinct.

I'm having real trouble finding this match.

Having a look through the ***** matches thread, I also saw tim had 83 match at 5 (4.5 for me) and Chad also had that 83 match there. Weakest of the series for me, but there we are. So fair enough, I don't quite see them on that level, although in the case of the 85 one clipping is partly to blame. The general point still stands really. Lawler doesn't have a vast reservoir of 5-star matches to draw from. And G is not his strong suit in the case. I am done debating at this stage in the game. I am just dropping conclusions. I think my final ratings on Lawler are pretty fair.

I love the stable vs. stable feud and his performances in the tag matches and gauntlet definitely elevated him from "this guy is really good" to "wow, this guy is REALLY good" in my eyes. I did not love the singles matches and had them all in ***1/2-***3/4 range which for a feud of that magnitude is disappointing. But I put that more on Choshu than on Fujinami cos I felt the same way about the Jumbo singles matches.

Maybe not. I liked almost all of those matches, and some of them a lot. Particularly the Dory, Terry No DQ, Dutch barbed wire, Dundee LLT and Idol/Freebirds bouts. I didn't particularly care for the Savage stuff much. I may have also not framed things in the proper context -- I found it all underwhelming as far as making a case for Lawler as an all timer, not as a worker who I enjoy and can appreciate. I have exactly the same feeling and it is NOT that these matches aren't great, it is that they cap out at about ****3/4. This is basically the debate I had with Will on part 5 of the Flair show. like Jumbo vs. Tenryu, Flair vs. Steamboat, Kawada vs. Misawa, these are ***** you know. A lot of the Lawler greatest hits including the Dundee stuff that I've just watched, for one reason or another, just don't quite hit that level. Lawler's case isn't made by a big string of 5-star classics, it's made be a big string of matches in the 4-4.5 range. In my Biglav terms, his case is really made in the V category, not in the G category. And I'm basically saying he doesn't have enough goods in the G category to be a true contender. And after reading around, it doesn't actually seem like MANY people have those Dundee matches at 5-stars (in fact I haven't seen anyone actually drop that rating on any of them so ...) This does seem a bit reductive and I don't want to sound like I'm trying to squash what is one of the all-time great workers and a lynchpin of one of the all-time great territories. I do like what he does and think he's excellent. He will finish in my top 20 and when all is said and done probably around 11 or 12. Just saying why I don't see him as a serious #1 pick. I do hope this doesn't make Will angry. But I just call it like I see it.

I hate bee-lining but needs must. Still looking for that 5-star Lawer match. Memphis 7.10 Jerry Lawler vs. Bill Dundee (No DQ, Loser Leaves Town) (12/30/85) This is easily the best match I've seen out of Memphis, despite some clipping (we get about 16 out of 23 mins), but we get the meat of it, and I've given ratings to Harley and Brisco matches in similar circumstances. This is an all-time great heel performance from Dundee. Lawler's eye is injured and his on that injury is relentless. I especially enjoyed how every once in a while he'd just deck the ref too, taking advantage of that no DQ rule. Lawler, obviously, is great selling the damage, but this does feel like the Dundee show from start to finish here. This has got to be a career performance from him: pretty much does an A to Z of "how to heel" in about fifteen minutes. Second half of the match when Lawler comes back and they go into the arena is wild, with some big spots. The clipping hurts this a tiny bit insomuch as the finish feels sudden and also transition, when it comes, feels a little arbitrary. Just enough to stop this getting the full five, but still obviously a match for the ages. ****3/4 Memphis 7.13 Jerry Lawler vs. Bill Dundee (No DQ, Loser Leaves Town) (7/14/86) This is less laser-focused than the last one, but I think it has more to recommend it than the 83 match, which I appear to be a lower vote on at ****1/2. While we don't have the story around the injury, we get more back and forth parity here, and a greater variety of spots, especially piledrivers, beyond the awesome slugfests. The brawling inside and outside the ring is all top notch, and these two did have a special chemistry that gave Memphis it's best ever matches. Assuming that this is where the set caps out in terms of quality, I think I'd have this #2, the 85 match #1, probably the Mantell match at #3, that PYT vs. Rich / Gilbert match at #4 and probably Lawler vs. Dory at #5. ****3/4

Would you not agree that the work is ... significantly faster and more action packed in the tags and gauntlet than in those singles matches?

Well he's made a believer out of me. I will not finish the decade before my ballot (may have to beeline some of the NJ vs UWF feud), but he really was a fantastic pro wrestler and a very very good babyface with natural charisma and fire. Could work just about any style opponent and was pretty versatile in what he could do himself. Top 15 finish as a bare minimum. But anything up to top 5 possible.

Maybe it is a quirk of the selections on the NJ set or maybe it's something to do with the fact that Fujinami vs. Choshu singles feud didn't really resonate to me, but the "before" and "after" effect from when Yatsu comes into the picture (in the terms of that set)'to me is possibly more breathtaking than the similar effect that him and Choshu turning up in AJ had a year later. I've been trying to put my finger on it. Choshu gives you the "big deal" vibe and feeling, but I think Yatsu is like a kind of catalyst. Everything just seems faster with him around. Bigger bombs. Bigger bumps. Million miles an hour. Boom boom boom. I don't think Choshu gives you that alone, it's the special chemical reaction that the combination of him and Yatsu gives you. The stretch Yatsu had from 84 to the end of 89 has to be as good as anyone's. I'd argue Yatsu is probably the MVP of the 5v5 gauntlet match and given that it's my new working #1 for greatest match ever, I have to have a think about if I want to try to give Yatsu a last minute boost somehow to finish higher on the list. Dude was incredible.