JerryvonKramer

I think Misawa does so many routinely awesome things that it's easy to take them for granted a bit. I've been watching out especially for what he does in tag matches recently and he was just an exceptional pro wrestler. I don't quite understand the point about him not being consistent during the peak run. He lets the partner shine sometimes, but everything he does within the context of those matches is on point.

Guess an easier way of putting it is: do you think he's a perfect 10 on consistency or more like a 7? I think I'd say he was a 7 where someone like Arn was a 10.

This is sort of what I was getting at the with the Abby comment I guess. Like Abby was Abby every night, so that means he's as consistent as Hansen? If not, why not? I've seen very few Hansen performances, if anyone, where he's looked actively bad or less than good. Even if he spent a night hanging around the apron, I still feel like he made his presence felt in a way that someone like Misawa didn't. You could say that's what Baba wanted from his ace and that's cool, but Hansen's tag performances blow away someone like Misawa's on a night-to-night basis. Well, to be honest, I'm not really buying the "Misawa was inconsistent in tags" talking point for the reason I've outlined, "Blow away" seems like genuine hyperbole to me, as someone who has watched an awful lot of both in tag settings over the last five years.

I'd like people to talk more about Stan Hansen and consistency. So less about whether or not particular runs were good, and more about what Hansen was like on your typical random tour match or RWTL match vs undercarders. Not convinced it is an especially strong suit for him.

Thanks for all the comments. I think it's become clear that there should have been a "consistency" rating in BIGLAV and that it should have been a 7-factor model rather than a 6-factor model. I do slightly regret that because it would have made a real difference to my list. Just looking down the bigger spreadsheet now and it would have boosted some people's scores, and probably that's where greatest hits candidates -- guys like Inoki -- fall off. And they would have if that 7th rating was there. You live and learn I guess. I am still happy with the model and stand by it, but I accept that tweak is probably needed. It does throw up some questions in itself. Like, for example, I'm looking at Abdullah the Butcher's ratings in the spreadsheet and thinking "well, he was CONSISTENTLY Abby". I'm not sure how to rate guys like that for consistency. Arn is probably your perfect 10 there. I think Flair is pretty darn consistent too across the 80s as the many many many times Chad and I have given him MVP on this show would attest, less so in later years which begs the question of: do you do the consistency rating across their peak or across their whole career? Also, on a side note, after a week of watching Regal, I don't think he'd be a 10 or even an 8 for consistency. The idea that he is always good is probably overstated.

2. Different styles of work One of the things I became known for during this project was my defence of Dory Funk Jr from the revisionist view that, contrary to the old received opinion, he wasn't a great wrestler. In some ways, that is profoundly ironic because Dory represents a style of wrestling that that isn't exactly my favourite: One could make an argument that it is wrestling in its purest form. You could draw a straight line from the 19th-century shooters through Thesz to Dory and Brisco and Inoki and from them through Maeda and Fujiwara to modern shoot style. One narrative gives you that as the purest tradition. Now I respect the hell out of the way OJ watches pro-wrestling, but as I've come to realise over the this process, it isn't what I'm about. I can appreciate the game of human chess, but ultimately a lot of the time I find it dull. The term I've started to use to describe what I value most highly is "baroque wrestling". Stories can be painted using different techniques. I favour broad brush strokes, bold colours and strong contrasts. I've had a go at trying to itemise all of these things. JvK's Seven Virtues and Seven Deadly Sins of Pro Wrestling 1. Big selling that can be seen from the cheap seats, not mugging for the camera 2. Cool and effective offense, not spectacle, flippiness or exhibitionism (e.g. Billy Robinson backbreaker good, Rey 619 bad) 3. Grittiness and authenticity not self-consciousness or knowing referentiality / meta-wrestling 4. Violence, brutality and hatred not gimmickry 5. Stiffness and snugness not choreography or "dance wrestling" 6. Natural showmanship, character work and crowd control not artificially "playing a role" 7. Real heat not crowds being "appreciative" It is no coincidence that the times and places that most hit the sweet spot at the cross-section of all of these -- mid-80s Crockett, Mid-South and AJPW 86-90s -- also happen to be my favourite wrestling promotions. Most of the wrestling I dislike tends to break one of these seven broad rules. I guess I kinda knew these things before the process started, but they were not made explicit and clear nor were they fully articulated until now.

I've tried to separate my thoughts into three chunks, only have time to share the first one, next two maybe later or tomorrow: 1. Workers vs. Matches Over 20 hours of reviewing 90s AJPW matches with Steven and over however many years of reading Matt's posts, I still have to admit that I don't really understand what this means. In a recent post I made, I talked about how I was concerned that fans are losing the fundamentals or basics of psychology, storytelling and logic in wrestling matches and angles. And I praised my man Ted for his ability to work around the limitations of someone like Bob Sweetan. But this doesn't seem to be what Steven or Matt mean by "working smart". Or if it is, Ted working around Sweetan or the Midnights working around Watts and JYD is not typically the sort of context in which I see those guys talking about it. After doing the first part of the WTBBP countdown with Chad, he mentioned how much he struggles to rate workers as opposed to matches. And I've come to realise that about myself too. I'm far far more comfortable talking about specifics in matches and breaking them down and talking about who did what well in those matches than extrapolating out generalisations about workers from five-minute TV matches. Whenever the debate moved to generalisations and away from specifics, I found myself getting pretty frustrated. Like let's say when people brought up certain tendencies of Flair (let's say the idea that he always worked the same match), my response was almost always to point to specific matches against specific opponents. I didn't like it when things tried to move beyond the match as our basic unit of analysis. And I've come to realise that about myself as a fan. Like Chad, I am pretty wedded to match analysis. I don't think it is a coincidence that I host all the most review-driven shows on the feed. I guess I like to have a text to analyse and to point to tangibles and that's much easier to do with guys working great or very good matches than guys working "just there" TV matches.

Mid-South 6.3 Ted DiBiase vs. Bob Sweetan (Taped Fist) (10/11/85) Beard and blonde hair for Ted, my fave look of his. Really good brawl from Ted against a lesser opponent and also -- along with the 1990 Dustin match -- a fairly rare example of him working from on top rather than from underneath as a heel since he takes about 90% of the match. At times Ted is almost wrestling himself here since 98% of the motion in the match comes from him. Sweetan does take the scoop powerslam and a piledriver, but this is mostly Ted creating all the movement through his great punches, chair shots, tons of fist drops. He also juices. As for Sweetan he does some shaky leg selling at one point, and his facial selling is good, but he isn't the most natural or fiery of babyfaces. He throws some nice punches. Ted stooges and throws himself half way across the ring for the comeback stretch but it's hard to believe in Sweetan really. This is where you can tell the difference between an old but great worker like a Jose Lothario and someone who doesn't really have it. Still, if you ever want to see what a Ted working around a limited opponent is like, this is it. Also a great example of his level of aggression and intensity. ***3/4 Mid-South 6.5 Ted DiBiase vs. Bob Sweetan (10/13/85) Sweetan shows a lot more in this match and has more time on offense. Piledriver on Ted and the latter's selling of it are amazing. After the match, the camera follows Ted bleeding profusely back to the locker room. This is rugged "man's man" type wrestling here. Pretty great stuff. ***1/2 Mid-South 6.8 Ted DiBiase vs. Ric Flair (11/6/85) I've never quite known how to rate this match despite reviewing it multiple times in audio form. It's one of the all-time great and tremendous angles in wrestling history. But I'm going to try to look at it just from a match perspective. Before the match Murdoch assaults Ted and it is truly one of the greatest pre-match assaults you will ever see. Murdoch's punches are out of this world. The post shot that gives Ted colour is sick, on the scale of postings that's got to be up there. Flair tries to get the bout thrown out and wants to leave without defending the belt. Bill Watts says that medics are attending to DiBiase's lacerations but has demanded to get his title shot. Aside from the greatness of this angle, I want to pause to emphasise how strongly Bill Watts outs over just the very *idea* of a shot at the NWA title, let alone actually being champion. Talk about the belt actually meaning something, holy shit. It was a coup for the NWA to have Watts on board in 85, the man was a wrestling genius. Just so GREAT at putting over the fundamental concepts of *meaning* in pro wrestling. When people think I'm just talking about "the good old days" as if it's some un-self-reflexive rose-tinted nostalgia, I'd like to stress two things, 1. I grew up 1000s of miles away from the Mid-South region and was 3 years old when this stuff was happening, 2. It's THIS really solid storytelling, and ability to build meaning in every single part of an angle in a logical and memorable way that I'm talking about. This sort of appreciation for the fundamentals of pro-wrestling psychology was part and parcel of what this board was about when I first joined it, I've sensed a drift away from it in recent years and I'd be genuinely sad to see stuff like this lost to newer generations of fans. Watts's sincerity, passion and absolute conviction in what he is saying during this little promo is the sort of thing that is sadly lacking in so much of the wrestling I've seen produced in the past decade. It's really the heart and soul of what pro wrestling should be in my view. Anyway, let's get to the match. Ted has his head bandaged, of course, and within seconds is bleeding buckets. All-time juice job. And w watch Ted being turned babyface before our eyes as the crowd start chanting "Teddy". A word on Jim Ross here as this match is one of his career highlights, he's so good during this. The brainbuster on the concrete by Murdoch has lost none of its impact. Every player in this saga executes their role perfectly. Flair is basically the perfect guy to play the indifferent champ passing through, DiBiase puts in an outstanding selling job and his exhaustion and weakness from blood loss is some pretty great babyface work from him made more remarkable by the fact that he came into the match a heel. Murdoch, although not technically a participant in this match is also tremendous in his part. Along with Flair's visit to Lawler in Memphis, and the Freebirds piledriving Ted in Georgia, this is a real contender for "best angle of the 1980s" and by extension "best angle ever". The match is sort of indivisible from the angle. Difficult to separate the two, but the only rating that feels right is ... ***** However, I purposefully did not include this in my top 100 matches before and I still won't because of fuzziness over how to classify it. Mid-South 7.5 Ted DiBiase vs. Dick Murdoch (12/27/85) This is a great double juice brawl. Murdoch has a laser-like focus on Ted's neck, laying in some incredible punches and chair shots, which clearly foreshadows the brainbuster. Ted's selling is amazing and it really does make me sad to see such a great worker summarily dismissed from GWE ballots for ... Basically no reason that I can make out. If Ted was in WWE right now, he'd easily be the best worker in the company, and then some. I believe that. The same is true of Murdoch of course. These guys knew how to work; the could be organic and call it in the ring to work a match like this which still tells a great and logical story. When people say to me things like "I don't like 80s American wrestling" they might as well be telling me that they don't like wrestling period. If you don't like this stuff, I have so little in common with you as a fan that it's pointless for us even to talk. I mean, about wrestling that is. What does "I don't value American 80s wrestling" actually mean anyway? You don't like great work? Storytelling? Psychology? Gritty and violent action? What does it actually mean? When I say "I don't care for current WWE" you know why that is. What I don't get is when people say they aren't high on this stuff. Do you want moonsaults and hurricanranas? Do you want a lot more high spots and false finishes? I feel passionately about this, and I'm gonna shoot straight. Anyway, there's a spot in this match where Murdoch throws Ted across the railings and the way he bounces off is sick and the chair shots, I mean Jesus. Murdoch's elbows are fantastic here. One neat little wrinkle in this match is seeing how Ted essentially doesn't change his heel character as a face, he's still loading the glove, he's still prepared to choke Murdoch, he doesn't undergo a personality transplant just because the fans like him now, and that is one of my friend Johnny Sorrow's favourite things in wrestling. The continuity does make sense. Great match with a ton of intense and violent work. Post-match Masked Superstar turns up to help Murdoch beat the shit out of Ted. Dick gives him another brainbuster. Absolute peak Ted here and one of the hotter runs in Murdoch's career. Masters in the art of pro wrestling. I dread to think some of the guys who are going to be ranked higher on some lists. ****1/2 Mid-South 7.9 Ted DiBiase vs. Dick Murdoch (No DQ) (12/31/85) Slower, and longer match. Ted busted open early on a table shot. Punches from both guys out of this world. I think in the punch leagues I'd only have Dundee and Lawler above these two. More methodical pacing with a similar finish to the last bout. This is the more famous match but I've always preferred the 12/27 match as a hotter and more hate fuelled sprint. The story in both matches is essentially the same, but this one is just told a little differently. Still a great match, but I find the previous one hotter. ****

Any of the Hogan matches from 1980. And we saw Hulk could have a good match with someone to carry him in the Backlund match. The Slaughter match was good but that's because Sarge was a maniac who threw himself all around the ring for Andre. The Hangman from 4/4/81 was fucking brutal. Just awful stuff. Moondog Rex 8/1/81 - crap Killer Khan 11/14/82 - nowhere close to their Japan bout, not even same ball park Enough shitty Andre to last you an afternoon there.

Any other feedback? The ranking of Masaaki Mochizuki over Ric Flair by someone on the panel somewhat undermined later claims that it isn't a favourites list. Some of the gaps were a bit surprising to me, I see stuff like Steamboat and Savage greatest hits as just basic stuff that every hardcore fan has seen, so it still comes as a shock when people haven't seen that stuff. There was probably a little bit too much Dragongate and current stuff discussion for a show about GWE, at least for my tastes. I thought some of the questions at the end were interesting, especially the one about "who will make every single ballot". Vader was a good shout.

Just in case guys who have been following this thread don't go outside this folder, we posted the audio for 100-41 here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/33607-where-the-big-boys-play-81-top-100-greatest-wrestlers-ever-special-part-1-100-41/ Hopefully Top 40 middle of next week.

I listened to this. He doesn't exactly "hide out" he does what Baba asked of all his aces in tags. Baba himself worked like that in the 70s tagging with Jumbo, who then worked like that in tags from about 1985 to about 1990 wherein Misawa became the ace and then worked like that himself. That's why you get people saying Jumbo was #4 guy in the Choshu / Yatsu tags. It was the house style and I don't see it as a negative. The ace let their partner shine more because typically that partner is playing FIP and the ace is bailing them out. Misawa might have a FIP sequence if they work it double heat, but it will be shorter and come second. And he will invariably be involved in the finishing stretch.

Yeah we watched a 77 WWF card a couple of months back where they mailed in that video clip, and that match had about 2000 times the workrate of everything else on the show.

Done.

For me, I'm just gonna chill out and watch more TV stuff. I do still think the heart of wrestling is in watching angles and storylines play out from week to week. I've never watched "for" great matches, really. Gonna do more stuff like the Titans Mystery Theatre, maybe watch random eps of TNT, Superstars, Primetime, JCP, week-to-week Mid-South, stuff like that. More towards what Liam has been doing here (http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/32796-a-wrestling-year-1986/), but with less structure and very likely no write ups. That's kinda more towards how I enjoy watching wrestling.

I'm not saying in any single way that Bock was worse in the 70s, I'm saying that knowing how people are low on stuff like early 80s Jumbo and how there has been a general shift away of liking hour long matches and slower bouts in our little corner of the fandom -- and why not name names, Phil Schneider and Will, would be two pretty influential and highly respected guys in that camp -- there might be a shift in perception that Bock was a bit boring. Like I know, for example, that some people were lower on him in Japan in general (outside of the Robinson match), and that is partly cos he was working those longer matches in the slower style. Less a comment on Bock's ability and more an idea about the general tastes of our voter base. And I know there are still guys around -- Pete, Childs, OJ, me, many others -- who still don't mind watching these styles of matches. But I don't think it can really be denied that there's been a slight shift towards shorter, more intense bouts and brawling over the past however many years. Which is probably why Stan Hansen is going to replace Jumbo as the #1, you could see that as symbolic of that broader shift.

There is a good chunk of 70s Bock on tape. Like at least to fill about 7 or 8 discs I'd say, if not more. As much as there is of, say, Jack Brisco period.

http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-81-top-100-greatest-wrestlers-ever-special-part-1-100-41/ As part of the Greatest Wrestler Ever project on prowrestlingonly.com, Chad and Parv rank their top 100 wrestlers. In this first part, they run down from 100 to 41. To see and take part in the project, visit: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/forum/777-greatest-wrestler-ever/

I've heard several people in different places say that they no longer really have the patience for that style of longer, slower NWA match.

Is Haku making your list Jay?

Well maybe this has been proved wrong, I like Jimmy and El McKell. Yeah, figured the board had changed a little since this thread started. For me, it's a much more closely contested race than it was two years ago, but pre-96 still has it. The GWE has been good for bringing fans who probably wouldn't usually talk to each other together. And for bringing us out of our enclaves a bit in terms of what we watch. That said, I am very much looking forward to retreating back to that enclave next month.

Well maybe this has been proved wrong, I like Jimmy and El McKell.

His best matches are against The Destroyer in the early 70s. Also not a bad bout against Jumbo in 1977. And not bad runs in RWTL circa 77-9. Couple of reviews I did dug up via search: Mil Mascaras and Dos Caras vs. Dory Funk Jr and Terry Funk (12/7/79) This is from the Real World Tag League of 1979, All Japan. Sky High hits but the crowd doesn't seem to care too much. They seem to pop bigger for the Funks. I wonder if that makes the Caras brothers de facto heels here? Doubt it. This was quite a long match, about 25 minutes. I don't know if Mascaras and Caras make the best foils for the Funks, it's a strange mixture of styles. Again this is worked very clean but much less stop-start than the singles match. The action really picks up in the last ten minutes when they start exchanging bombs, but I don't like all this even-stevens parity stuff. I prefer tag matches especially to have some control segments, and neither side was prepared to stay down for long in this one. Never the less, some great counter wrestling and big high spots. Good without being great. ***3/4 Harley Race vs. Mil Mascaras (9/12/80) PWI dream match, NWA Champion against Mascars in Japan? Forget about it, Bill Apter just came. Mil is in an elaborate leopard-skin mask and cape. This is All Japan. Odds of Harley doing 99% of the selling: 99%. Odds of Mil eating a pin: 0%. Some surprising things about this match: - Harley hits at least 10 moves of offense, incuding three vertical suplexes (one outside ring), a piledriver and a back suplex and Mil actually sold them - Mascaras does a crossbody from the top to the outside - Things break out into a brawl, including Mascaras burying a chair on Harley's head - Harley juices - A table finds its way to the ring and is propped up on the ropes - It doesn't suck Less surprising: Double CO finish. About as good as any Mascaras match I've ever seen. He worked hard and for once didn't bore me to tears. ***1/2 Worth watching: Mil Mascaras vs. Genichiro Tenryu (2/4/82)

I don't think anyone has voted for anyone on rep.