JerryvonKramer

Yes, Thesz is the spiritual link from the 1930s to the 1960s, Flair is the link from the 70s to the 2000s. They are the backbone of American wrestling history, remove them and the entire picture changes. If you picture a house of cards they are on the foundations. Probably why Larry Matysik has it like this: All I was trying to say is that for me there's something almost mythically special about that. A level of magic and greatness "beyond" our talk of great matches, variety, psychology etc. I can't be alone in feeling this, we are hardcore wrestling fans and there is only one Ric. I have three hours before my involvement of with this project is over. Let me see if I can make them count by watching some matches.

Does Kobashi count?

You've not grasped the argument I've made about the index of American wrestling history etc ( and everything about your post suggests you haven't Grimmas), but really at this stage in the game, who cares. Four days and I'll be done with this forever. Most of the arguments have been made. The solace we have to take is that now, at the end, is that we've all watched more great wrestling as a result and are still friends on speaking terms. The process was what it was.

Considered and intelligent post Matt. My only counter to your first line would be to ask a question: is it REALLY easier to go out there in front of 700 hardcore ROH fans who already worship the ground you walk on AND most probably the ground your opponent walks on too -- some of, I would argue, the most nauseatingly sychophantic crowds in wrestling history -- and wow them with the five-star classic they want to see? Or is it easier to go into Texas or Kansas or St. Louis or whatever shitty arena night after night, with maybe one or two localised promos and "the idea" of the NWA champion to work with whoever? And that "whoever" could literally be anyone, Terry Taylor, Bobo Brazil, Rufus R. Jones, Jim Nelson, Mike Graham, Brody, whoever it was. I just really question this idea that being NWA champ was in any way an easy gig. It was actually one of the hardest gigs in wrestling that burnt out most of the guys who took it on (Brisco most famously), and I don't like to see it being sold so short here.

http://placetobenation.com/all-japan-excite-series-15/ Steven and Parv discuss two of the best matches of all time. 12/06/96 - Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue 01/20/97 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi 06/06/97 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada 10/21/97 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi

I legit think this team > Doc and Gordy.

There's no denying that it is the single most remarkable story of this generation. And if that mean's more to you than the Flair story in terms of a Greatest Wrestler Ever poll, then it is your prerogative and there's no criteria for this thing. For me the difference between the two stories is that Bryan's is the story of one man against the odds for this generation, whereas the Flair one is the story of one man through the prism of wrestling history. And for something like a GWE, the gravitas of the latter carries big weight in my mind (note: I've used a rating system so none of this fuzzy feeling stuff has actually played into my rankings). I hate to draw on this analogy again but I can't think of a better one: to me it's like the difference between a Bob Dylan who links the great American songbook and forms a spiritual link from the folk and blues traditions into rock n roll and beyond across the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and 00s, and whose career registers American pop music history over its forty or fifty years, and someone like a Kurt Cobain who had an undeniable impact on his moment in history and a remarkable personal story. To someone of my mindset and disposition, who values the long view of history, who sees things on a macro as well as a micro level, who wants to take a diachronic look at these sorts of things, I'm always going to consider Dylan the demonstrably more important figure. This is without getting into the relative merits of the work, which we absolutely should not get into here. It's just a quick analogy. You have to decide what is important for your own criteria. And if you really think that the Bryan story and career > the Flair story and career, as I said, it's your list.

Steamboat matches before 89 .... Vs Flair, lots, circa 78 - garbage tapes with some clipping / JIP, but you can see how great these matches were and we get lots of them. Vs Valentine / Iron Sheik 80 - again a bit JIP, but hot matches Vs Funks, 82 - one of his better AJ matches Final Conflict, Sarge and Kernodle, 83 Vs Briscos, 83 - some great stuff here Vs Tully 84 Vs Flair 84 (Night of the Champions) Vs Orton Jr 85 Vs Jake 86 Vs Savage 87 Just wondering what pre-92 Bret stuff you'd put against that? I mean doesn't seem an even contest to me.

It's strange point when it comes to the Steamboat comparison because the finishes vs. Savage (WM3), Flair (all three, and each fall in Clash 6, see double chickenwing), and Rude (Beach Blast) all seem pretty memorable to me. Even if two of them are small packages and two others are non-finishes, the way they are built to is pretty perfect.

What would be cool here is a list of like 3-4 prime Steamer house show matches from the mid-80s WWF run. I reckon those don't get talked about nearly enough and that run is often reduced to just Mania 3 with Savage. I saw an awesome bout against Bob Orton Jr from 85, but what else is there? My impression is that most fans (including those here) are more familiar with the Bret oeuvre beyond the greatest hits than with the Steamer hidden gems.

I was referring to his one in 91 at MSG. All 3 matches were in 91 so I thought it was a fair comparison.Bit of a sly one though, cos the 91 Bret match with Ted that has always been pimped online is the one from SNME (which I like, about ***1/2) rather than that MSG one (which I always found weird cos I didn't buy him going for IC belt anyway), and both are probably better than the match Steamer had with Ted in 91 (KOTR). Don't want to get hung up on the examples, and this post feels nit picky, but I don't think you're being entirely fair to Bret with those specific ones.

Pete, I am team Steamer too, but what are the Steamer vs. Haku / Darsow matches that are better than the Bret vs. Ted (Odessa, 89) match? That seems a big claim. I've always been high on that match and have it around ****, it's one of Teddy's better ones in WWF.

Not yet for Fujiwara. I don't know why I've held off on the Buddy Rose rating, but here goes. Buddy Rose Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for rope running) = 9 Intangibles 7 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 1977-87 = 10 years = 6 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to work as ace / carry a promotion +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (PNW, WWF, Hawaii, San Francisco, AWA) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 Variety = 9 44

I've actually seen a good deal of Rose, just not reviewed any. I really dig the Portland setting and lose myself looking at the assorted skinny shouting old men in it. There is something about that style and setting that leaves me loathe to want to leave star ratings. It seems curiously reductive to do so. I'm thinking about stuff like that match with Boyd as the ref. How can you drop stars on it without crushing the beauty of the thing? I'm on board with Rose, don't worry. I like him a good bit, but probably not to the point where I see him as a top five guy like some of you. I do love the unique dynamic he has with that crowd though, it's almost like they get a real kick out of trolling him, it's just a lot of fun I think. Lovely little promotion with a vibe I feel very relaxed about. I've probably watched all the pimped matches at some point or other. Definitely ones vs. Youngblood, Adonis, Martel and Piper.

The first post has been edited to reflect the scores I've actually given out. The whole system has been a work in progress. I wanted to say something about being British and the basic WoS babyface type being something I find really weird, but let's save it for another time.

I guess I don't have much of a sense of what the "norm" is for either guy. It felt very shoot-y to me. And the limb work needed to be more marked and obvious for me to follow the narrative thread. I mean now that I think of it, the big clue should have been the fact that they were sitting in a figure four for the best part of 15 minutes, but since the camera seemed more interested in Suzuki screaming with his tongue sticking out, it was kinda lost on me. I was struck by the methodical pacing of it, but after it failed go anywhere or build coherently I started to zone out. What I'm trying to say is that it's probably me, not it. Which is why I'm not giving a rating.

I think we do view wresting differently as we've discussed in the past. I like big performers -- baroque wrestling you could say -- you are more into your minimalism and little details. However, do note that I gave the Dundee, Mantell and Funk matches I've reviewed so far 4.5 -- I do think they are all very good matches, but they aren't pushing five for me, which is where my issue has been. And also note these two things: 1. We potentially agree on what is the greatest match in wrestling history. 2. Looking at my spreadsheet, Lawler is currently sitting at number 11.

Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Minuru Suzuki (08/10/12) Sorry guys, I really found this boring. I mean holy shit it was dull to the point where the slap exchanges just feel random, mindless and incongruous compared to the previous ten minutes or whatever of lying around. I can't really get behind guys trying to create drama through lying in a hold and screaming at each other. It's just not my thing you know. I don't really understand what a match like this is trying to be or what it is. No sense of flow really, no stories that I could detect beyond the merest gesture towards the idea that Suzuki was sort of targeting Tanahashi's leg, sort of. WTF is this? I am basically not adequately qualified to review a match like this. It's like taking a village idiot to a modern art gallery and asking him for his analysis of the best rated piece there, or something. I'd love to read some write ups of this that have 5-stars as a conclusion. This is so totally far from where I am as a fan that I'm basically refusing to rate it. My rating is a shrug. Apologies I don't really have anything better. I saw one of the best matches of all time today, it took place in New Japan, and it happened in 1984.

Just want to elaborate on this a little bit. Ric's career could have ended in 1975, we all know that. It could have ended really at any point. A bad bump. A piledriver gone wrong. A knee from Brody in the head. Look at how Bryan's career ended. Or Bret's. Or more tragically look at how Misawa's ended. A lot of things can derail a guy's career. Injuries, politics, bad booking. The idea of "right guy, right time" doesn't tell the full story. Flair didn't always have political backing. The NWA was a complete minefeild in the early 80s. In the mid-80s, he had Dusty to contend with in JCP. He could have been completely done in 1990 from political decisions when Jim Herd got him to cut his hair and booked him as a Black Scorpion. He could have been done in 1995 after Hogan had basically squashed and retired him and taken over his home turf. He could have been done in 1997-8 when Eric Bischoff told him to go home. You can call it luck, determination, desparation, ego, a mixture of all of these things and more, but he kept going through it all. And he got that special retirement show on Raw. Wrestling is a tough and ruthless business. There are *reasons* why I think the Flair career is something really remarkable. And there are reasons why no one else had it. I have 3-4 days to go on this project before I'll be done. We won't have these debates again for a long time. But I do want to get over, somehow, the sense of why I think the way I do about Flair.

I don't really care which way people vote at all, like in no single way. If I've convinced you to vote Bryan, whatever knock yourself out. I'm just noting why I think what I think. Nothing more, nothing less. To me, there's something almost mythical about the career Flair had. So improbable, so unlikely. So many contingencies that could have derailed it. And yet there it is, a guy who worked with them ALL: anyone who was anyone in four decades of wrestling history. If that means nothing to you or if Bryan working the index of 00s indies guys means more to you, that's cool with me. I'm just articulating why I treasure the Flair career more.

I'm not arguing that Bryan shouldn't be ranked highly or given huge credit for it. I'm just noting that for me, and I'm sure others too, his achievement cannot really rival what Flair did for the reasons I outlined. It's not even as simple as saying I think wrestling is better in the 80s than now, it's more that Flair's career is an actual index of American wrestling history. I mean literally guys from the 60s to guys who died 30 years ago to guys who are still on the active roster now. It's just mind-blowing when I think about it.

That one has been reviewed Dylan on AJ Excite series. Not yet uploaded but in the can.

I was saying to someone in a private chat earlier that I do buy into the idea of Bryan as "the Flair of this generation" and his career is probably as close as it is possible to being that in this day and age. The major difference for me is -- and I'm afraid that this might come out sounding badly, even though I don't want it to -- is that Flair's list of opponents is full-brim of bona-fide WON-HOF, WWE-HOF ring wearing type legends. As in, it's not just a who's who of who was around, it's a who's who of actual wrestling history. And with the greatest respect, we're talking about the difference between The Funks or Wahoo McDaniel and literally Dolph Ziggler or Sheamus. It's less an indictment on Bryan, he was as good as he possibly could have been, it's just that he wasn't fortunate enough to be born in a time where there was a lot of all-time greats still active and working. The 90s generation -- unlike the 70s generation in the 80s -- didn't really stick around to pass the torch. Flair got to work with ALL of them (70s, 80s, 90s, even 00s), but Bryan didn't he only got to work with his contemporaries. It doesn't really make a difference in terms of my list, but it does make a difference in terms of how I see the achievement. It's one thing to produce a list of names, another to produce that specific list of names that Flair can point to. And for that reason it is impossible for me to see Bryan's achievement as even comparable to Flair's. It is grossly unfair, but it's a case of right guy and right place. Of course, some guys might look at a list like that as see the Samoa Joes of this world as somehow being comparable to the grandiose echoes of wrestling history when you look down the list of names on Flair's list. I see a guy who spent a lot of time in TNA. In a different era, Joe could have been Wahoo McDaniel, in this era, he was that guy. I probably sound ridiculously elitist, but it is what I think. Part of the Flair list is the generational aspect, the bridging from 70s to 80s to 90s to 00s. It's a truly one-off achievement. That is the quantity alone doesn't make the Flair list special, but the time span and who is on the list as well.

Time for some serious watching today. New Japan 5.7 Nobuhiko Takada vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi (3/9/84) If Ishin Gundan were the Dangerous Alliance, Red Pants was kinda like their Bobby Eaton wasn't he. I think he's really underrated and no one talks about him. This was a sprint bombfest and a lot of fun, crunchy suplexes, and crisp execution. Sort of wrestling I could watch all day. Which bodes well. ***1/2 New Japan 5.8 Tatsumi Fujinami, Seiji Sakaguchi & Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs. Riki Choshu, Yoshiaki Yatsu & Higo Hamaguchi (3/22/84) Inoki is sneak attacked and ambushed on his way to the ring, which is absolutely hilarious because the weird party music and "gay parade" vibe him and the babyfaces had coming out here was too much. So glad the heels came in and wrecked it! You can see why they called this whole feud "revolutionary", it's just so awesome, and actually very very US style in terms of the booking and angle-driven storytelling, even if the basis of the feud is uniquely Japanese. Choshu, Yatsu and Hamaguchi stand in the middle of the ring with some other stable members as the medics attend to Inoki and someone gets on the mic. It appears that Inoki's old mate from the 1970s, Sakaguchi is going to sub for him. The chap on the mic seems to stay on it for the rest of the match, wonder who he was and what he was saying. Take note Demolition fans, if you want to see the meaning of a team beatdown watch Choshu and friends here. Fujiwara gets beaten to fuck here by Choshu's army. Spike piledriver by Choshu and Yatsu. This is so out of control that I'm thinking of giving every participant in it +1 ability to work brawls. I just want to talk again, as if I haven't already on this board, about Yatsu's offense, I mean if he isn't the best damn bomb thrower in history, I don't know who is. He does a scoop powerslam at one point that seems to magically float across the ring. Also has a good stretch of playing heel-in-peril during this and really really well. The crowd is so hot here it's unreal. Yatsu is just such a great worker, he's basically what Kurt Angle could have been. He will also likely not get his due in GWE because I've noticed a general drift in the voter base towards 90s/00s types over these (basically better) 80s workers from when wrestling was basically better. Real crowds, real heat, real workers. Anyway, another terrific match from a feud I'm loving the hell out of. Fujiwara bleeds for Japan yet again. **** New Japan 5.9 5-on-5 Gauntlet (4/19/84) Here we go. Get ready. Crowd is just mental here. This would be footage to show anyone who says that Japanese crowds just sat on their hands. If you don't know, the rules here are that the winner stays on in a series of one on one matches. Representing Ishin Gundan we have: 1. Kobayashi, 2. Teranishi, 3. Yatsu, 4. Hamaguchi, 5. Choshu Representing The Chin of Inoki we have: 1. Fujinami, 2. Takada, 3. Kimura, 4. Fujiwara, 5. Inoki Let us pause for a moment to analyse the squad selection here. I am guessing Saito could not compete or wasn't around for some reason? Terenashi has to be seen as a reserve call up, and I'd see him as a the weak link for Choshu going into this. Takada probably the weak link for the faces. Both teams have chosen to start with a "striker", but Fujinami surely has Kobayashi outgunned. Choshu has reserved his "ace in his hole", Yatsu, for the middle. And both teams saved their grizzled bruisers -- Hamaguchi and Fujiwara -- for the four spot and their leaders to end. Looking at it, I'd make the heels very slight favourites, but it's quite an even contest on paper. 1. Fujinami vs. Kobayashi Hot start to this and it is a fitting start because the crowd is just pumped beyond belief. Fujinami makes short work of Kobayashi and points one finger in the air as if to say "one down". He really is a great babyface and I think has grown into his role as the 1b to Inoki's 1a during the course of this footage. NJ has a bit more of the WWF-style razzmatazz than AJ, and they were absolutely killing it on this feud. 2. Fujinami vs. Teranishi Fujinami is fired up and there's a vague feeling of rabbit-in-the-headlights about Teranishi. Fujinami's all like "come on and bring it bitch"! Terenashi focuses on slowing Fujinami down and works the HAND and wrist, Jim Breaks Special on the way? Terenashi actually uses headbutts to the hand and wrist here. You have to give him points for focus and innovation. Headbutts to the wrist! I mean ha ha! Teranishi is giving Fujinami more than he bargained for in this one. The gauntlet is gruelling! Drop gutbuster by Terenashi. Scorpion by Fujinami! And that'll do. Crowd mental. I am marking. And Fujinami is still selling that long-term damage on his hand. Terenashi has done a job here, left a lasting impression on one of Inoki's key players, even if he couldn't finish him off. 3. Fujinami vs. Yatsu Fuck yes, come on. I don't think I've been as pumped for a wrestling match as much as this since ... Honestly I couldn't say. But they've drawn me into this. Yatsu straight after the injured hand. Well I mean this guy was an Olympian. Fujinami straight in for the scorpion again. Piledriver on the outside. Yatsu back after that hand. Posts it. Drop kicks Fujinami on the apron and he takes a flat back bump from there to the outside. Holy shit! Second one he gets his leg caught in the rope and Yatsu is not above heeling it up here. And yes, he went for the cheap count out. Ha ha. Some perfect storytelling here, by the way, the hero already having had two matches get screwed by the heel who is happy to take a cheap win than let him have a fair chance. Fujinami gets to retain his heat, and isn't pinned, Yatsu goes into the next bout with some real heat on him. I want to say Vince and Pat at the height of their powers couldn't have booked it any better. I mean it doesn't really matter than Japanese fans don't boo, Choshu and co are CLEARLY working heel in this feud. I mean, they break rules, they fight cheap and dirty. And they are absolutely fucking awesome. 4. Yatsu vs. Takada I'm a heel fan by the way and am openly rooting for Yatsu here, even though this match took place over 30 years ago when I wasn't even two years old. Amateur takedown by Yatsu. Takada with some clubbing blows to come back and a leg drop. Backdrop suplex equalizes for Yatsu, he can throw those in his sleep. Belly to belly by Takada. Massive lariat. Two only. Scoop slam. Boston crab but he can't turn it over. Slips into a leg lock instead. Slap fest now in this position. Billy Robinson back breaker by Yatsu. Butterfly suplex. Takada comes back. Drop kick. Vertical suplex. Camel clutch. He's consistently focused on the back, despite this being as bomb heavy as it is. They are also REALLY laying in the shots here, this is heated as anything you'll ever see. Single leg takedown into a figure four by Takada. That was good. Tombstone piledriver. German. He can't put Yatsu away. Missile drop kick. Two only! Scoop powerslam by Yatsu! And that'll do it. Jesus just this portion of this match alone is awesome. Yatsu the equalizer. 5. Yatsu vs. Kimura Yatsu is clearly knackered. And Kimura gives him a huge belly to back early which wipes him out further.. Kimura hits a lot of headbutts. Slapfest. Superplex by Kimura and that'll do. Crowd is in a frenzy. This match was really just a transition point to move from the Yatsu portion of the match. Functional and doesn't outstay its welcome. 6. Kimura vs. Hamaguchi Hamaguchi is super aggressive. He's the enforcer of this stable and he's going to make his mark on this match. I love the idea of him here as Choshu's gatekeeper. You will not pass! Devastating elbow drops by him and some great heeling as he points to him and taunts the fans. "There's your boy!" Clothesline by Hamaguchi. Bulldog. Great enforcer type performance from Hamaguchi here. Did exactly what was needed for the story and for his team. 7. Hamaguchi vs. Fujiwara Fujiwara turns up with more fire than the actual sun and forces the veteran Hamaguchi to bail and break the momentum. Fujiwara will not be cooled though. Piledriver gets a very hot near fall. Clothesline by Hamguchi. Body slam. Elbow from the top rope. Another super hot near fall. Fujiwara has SO MUCH FIRE, Hamaguchi resorts to choking him. I'm loving his US-territory-style heeling in this match. Hamaguchi could have worked Memphis. Can you imagine him somewhere like Mid-South brought in as a hired hit man by Jim Cornette or something? He could have been a great territorial heel, I have no doubt, Samoan drop by Hamaguchi. Multiple headbutts by Fujiwara. Hamaguchi bails, but Fujiwara follows him and slams him into the railings. And again. Fujiwara is like a proper fucking man's man isn't he. You can see him in like a dive bar with a pint in one hand and a cigarette in another, and then if something kicked off he'd snap a pool cue over someone's head. He has that vibe about him. This was another great entry in this match. The look on Hamaguchi's face after the bell goes for the double count out is amazing. It's the look of a man who knows he has failed his mission. 8. Inoki vs. Choshu Choshu coming through the crowd is awesome here. Some fan tries to touch his shoulder and he's like "get the fuck off me". Someone tries to give him some flowers and he brushes them off. What a total fucking dude. Heels are cooler than babyfaces, there can be zero doubt. And as I say that out comes Inoki is in robe shaking hands with women and taking the flowers graciously. You know, he should have become a politician. Oh wait. Now, obviously, things hit the mat here for a bit because both guys are fresh and it *is* Inoki. But there was a lot of struggle as well as an insane Backlund-style deadlift by Choshu into a flapjack, which was pretty cool. And pretty soon Choshu gives Inoki a backdrop suplex. Eventually Inoki gets Choshu in the octopus to end the match of all matches. This match right here is the fucking shit. And I need to think about it more but it has a good chance of overtaking Clash 6 as my #1 match of all time. So much great stuff here over an hour and a half and just perfect, perfect booking. The psychology and strategic aspects of it are also amazing. In my view the MVPs were Fujinami and Yatsu who carried the first two acts of the three act play, but also super strong preformances from Hamaguchi who was basically perfect in his role, and Fujiwara who was absolutely kickass. If I have a criticism, it's that the Inoki vs. Choshu portion is too mat-oriented and doesn't seem to live up to all the awesome that comes before it, but I can forgive that because here is Inoki as the ultimate hero against the big boss, and he had to win it his own way. I also kind of like it because it's a virtual link back to the 70s-style within the context of this mind-blowing and groundbreaking feud. This is unbelievably great. Transcendent. *****

I'll give you the cold hard figures Steven. Big Boss Man 6 4 3 0 5 6 24 John Tenta 4 6 0 0 4 6 20 One Man Gang 4 3 1 0 6 4 18 No room for any of your soppy vegetarian Canadian sentiment here my friend.